How do you answer a member who feels the church has apostacized?

[Reddogs]

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized, and feel what is being taught in many Adventist churches and schools today are full of evolution,  spiritual formation, ecumenism into the power of the Papacy, and the SOP taken away and replaced with mans empty philosophy or popular authors full of deception. 

[JoeMo]

I would say that your salvation is not dependent upon your chosen denomination; it is dependent upon your relationship with Jesus Christ.  All denominations are man-made constructs of what some person or group decided what was "truth" in their own interpretation of scripture.  Salvation has nothing to do with getting every single doctrinal point in scripture or the writings of EGW 100% correct.

If you are unhappy with mainstrean Adventism, there are plenty of ministries out there that will cater to you - for example - Hope International, Steps to Life, the Reformed SDA Church, Amazing Facts, Messianic Judaism, Shepherd's Rod.  You will likely be unhappy with them after a while when you realize their people and organizations are just as flawed as everyone else - just in different ways.

Salvation comes from loving and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and letting His Spirit change you from the inside; and studying the Scripture for guidance into what is right.  It does not come from the Adventist (or any other) denomination.  It only comes as a free gift (i.e., no strings attached; nothing we "earn") from Jesus Christ.

[CoAspen]

Your list is long and virtually impossible to say unless one has visited and listened to a large number of churches for quite some period of time. A snippet here and there or just a sermon here and there does not support such claims.     Usually it is the listener that is having difficulty in not 'hearing' the tone or interpretation that they as an individual want to hear. The christian experience is one of growth, not bound in some predetermined point of time.

The human experience  is to hear what one wants to hear. It is also like witness accounts of an incidence, they all have different view points and often not agreeing with each other.  Would not be unusual for my wife and I to have 'heard' different things/ideas/thought from a sermon that we listened to at the same time.

We can always find fault, that is the easiest.

[Gail]

We were told that there would be tares in with the wheat until the harvest. The wheat is not to leave but abide until the harvesttime

[Gregory Matthews]

The answer from a professional counseling standpoint is:  You do not attempt to answer the person.  The list of their alleged offenses in not the central issue.

Here is what you do:

1) You shut your mouth and you begin to listen to the person.

2) Listen for the hurt (injury) that has caused the  break in the relationship.

3) You attempt to get the person to identify and acknowledge that hurt.

Once you have done that you have reached a place where there is a potential for you to assist in the healing process.

Here is the rational:

1) People seldom leave over doctrine.

2) People  leave over relationships and spiritual injury.

3) When this is the case, getting into an intellectual argument over perceived wrongs (doctrine and policy) is seldom helpful.  All such discussions confirm people in the harm that has been done to them.

NOTE:  My answer is specific to the question asked and the way it was worded.  There is a place for a discussion of doctrine, policy, practice and life style.  But, that discussion often should be limited.

 

[debbym]

i would tell them that he was the church, and if he has not apostatized the church has not apostatized.

The church is the body of Christ, that Christ himself cares for.  If there is apostasy there, Jesus will deal with it.

Just as Jesus dealt with Judas we are to be kindly to those in Spiritual trouble.

[Reddogs]

19 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I would say that your salvation is not dependent upon your chosen denomination; it is dependent upon your relationship with Jesus Christ.  All denominations are man-made constructs of what some person or group decided what was "truth" in their own interpretation of scripture.  Salvation has nothing to do with getting every single doctrinal point in scripture or the writings of EGW 100% correct.

If you are unhappy with mainstrean Adventism, there are plenty of ministries out there that will cater to you - for example - Hope International, Steps to Life, the Reformed SDA Church, Amazing Facts, Messianic Judaism, Shepherd's Rod.  You will likely be unhappy with them after a while when you realize their people and organizations are just as flawed as everyone else - just in different ways.

Salvation comes from loving and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and letting His Spirit change you from the inside; and studying the Scripture for guidance into what is right.  It does not come from the Adventist (or any other) denomination.  It only comes as a free gift (i.e., no strings attached; nothing we "earn") from Jesus Christ.

So we can go to the Church of Satan and worship and we will be fine......Hmmm

[Reddogs]

17 hours ago, Gail said:

We were told that there would be tares in with the wheat until the harvest. The wheat is not to leave but abide until the harvesttime

I think we have reached that time, look around to see the evidence we have before us...

[Reddogs]

17 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The answer from a professional counseling standpoint is:  You do not attempt to answer the person.  The list of their alleged offenses in not the central issue.

Here is what you do:

1) You shut your mouth and you begin to listen to the person.

2) Listen for the hurt (injury) that has caused the  break in the relationship.

3) You attempt to get the person to identify and acknowledge that hurt.

Once you have done that you have reached a place where there is a potential for you to assist in the healing process.

Here is the rational:

1) People seldom leave over doctrine.

2) People  leave over relationships and spiritual injury.

3) When this is the case, getting into an intellectual argument over perceived wrongs (doctrine and policy) is seldom helpful.  All such discussions confirm people in the harm that has been done to them.

NOTE:  My answer is specific to the question asked and the way it was worded.  There is a place for a discussion of doctrine, policy, practice and life style.  But, that discussion often should be limited.

 

Very perceptive, thank you.

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, Reddogs said:

So we can go to the Church of Satan and worship and we will be fine......Hmmm

Get real, Red!  Did I say that? NO! I said your salvation depends on your relationship with Jesus Christ.  Is it reasonable that someone who is worshipping at the church of satan would have a real relationship with Jesus?  I think not.

Getting back to the subject, I appreciated Gregory's advice, as did you.

22 hours ago, JoeMo said:

If you are unhappy with mainstrean Adventism, there are plenty of ministries out there that will cater to you - for example - Hope International, Steps to Life, the Reformed SDA Church, Amazing Facts, Messianic Judaism, Shepherd's Rod.  You will likely be unhappy with them after a while when you realize their people and organizations are just as flawed as everyone else - just in different ways.

The point I was trying to make in the above statement is that - at least from my experience - there is no "perfect" church.  We can always find things that are "wrong".  As a faithful watchman, you see areas of darkness at your church.  I have seen those in every church I have ever frequented.  You may be the only moderating influence in your church.   If you leave where you are, it may become an even darker place.  Dark places need light.  Maybe God has placed you in that church to shine a light into the darkness.  You may not need that particular congregation; but they may need you - whether they perceive it or not.  After all, the body of Christ is to be a refuge for sinners as well as a sanctuary for saints.

When you view it from a spiritual perspective, you carry your home church with you - in your heart - for you are the temple of the Holy Spirit.  Wherever you are, you are at your home church.  You carry it with you wherever you go.

Blessings and peace to you.  May the peace and love of Jesus Christ soothe your soul and remove your pain and discouragement.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

On 11/11/2015, 9:35:41, Gail said:

We were told that there would be tares in with the wheat until the harvest. The wheat is not to leave but abide until the harvesttime

 

8 hours ago, Reddogs said:

I think we have reached that time, look around to see the evidence we have before us...

thing about harvest time, though, is *who* is the "harvester"?  

[Gail]

13 minutes ago, rudywoofs said:

 

thing about harvest time, though, is *who* is the "harvester"?  

Exactly!

[Kevin H]

I very much like Greg's reply. An additional point is that there were Adventists who accused Mrs. White and Willie of apostasy in the early 1900s. Many of those continuing to complain of these things are followers of the views of people who have been accusing the church of apostasy for well over 100 years and even accused the Whites of apostasy.

True we are an interesting bunch. Our pioneers were kicked out of a lot of different churches with different backgrounds and views. They had a handful of points they agreed upon, and outside of that there was the freedom to agree to disagree. Our pioneers also had an understanding of gospel which interpreted what they were learning about the law. However the next generation was looking at what the pioneers were learning about law without the foundation in the gospel that the pioneers had. This mixture of the diversity of thought among our pioneers and the difference in how they saw the evidence of Adventism between the first and second generation has opened the door for our diversity today. But we have some who have views and traditions of Adventism that they think is the ONE and only TRUE form of Adventism and does not have room for the rest of us, and if we don't agree with them completely then we are apostate. And as they do not agree with each other exactly then the list of apostates grows. Of course the other option is for us all to have our say and as long as we are not fanatical, that we listen to each other and try to be fair to the other views and form our own understanding.

[Aliensanctuary]

The bigger problem lies with those who see themselves as "pure" enough to enable them to accuse others of apostasy. Accusing others of wrongdoing is nothing new since it's everywhere in this life, a trait basic to human nature. Unfortunately, we cannot get into the minds of others and instead must rely on our own limited sensory input which often leads to accusations of evil motives and practices.

This type of behavior is a reminder of the parable of the two sons, where one has left the farm and wasted his inheritance while the other stayed behind. The hardliners may reject the worship services and beliefs of the "apostate liberals", but in the End, all who choose to bear the Mark of God and join the Kingdom will be saved, regardless of the religion, if any, that they belonged to. The son who left and returned ended up with a much greater appreciation of his father and an awareness of his own value than the other "pure" son who resented his brother's reward despite his "apostasy".

A person can examine others' behaviors and beliefs with a powerful magnifying glass, but they should be looking in a mirror, instead. What other's do and say and believe is nothing compared to what we, ourselves, think, say, do, and believe. We can raise our voices and accuse and condemn others for their "apostasy", but then, we are worse.

[Aliensanctuary]

Sorry, Following is the edited version of the previous post.

The bigger problem lies with those who see themselves as "pure" enough to enable them to accuse others of apostasy. Accusing others of wrongdoing is nothing new since it's everywhere in this life, a trait basic to human nature. Unfortunately, we cannot get into the minds of others and instead must rely on our own limited sensory input which often leads to accusations of evil motives and practices.

This type of behavior is a reminder of the parable of the two sons, where one has left the farm and wasted his inheritance while the other stayed behind. The hardliners may reject the worship services and beliefs of the "apostate liberals", but in the End, all who choose to bear the Mark of God and join the Kingdom will be saved, regardless of the religion, if any, that they belonged to. The son who left and returned ended up with a much greater appreciation of his father and an awareness of his own value than the other "pure" son who resented his father's joy at his brother's return, despite his "apostasy".

A person can examine others' behaviors and beliefs with a powerful magnifying glass, but they should be looking in a magnifying mirror, instead. What other's do and say and believe is nothing compared to what we, ourselves, think, say, do, and believe. We can raise our voices, point our fingers, and accuse or condemn others for their "apostasies", but then, we are worse.

[Tom Wetmore]

On November 11, 2015 at 6:09:57 AM, Reddogs said:

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized, and feel what is being taught in many Adventist churches and schools today are full of evolution,  spiritual formation, ecumenism into the power of the Papacy, and the SOP taken away and replaced with mans empty philosophy or popular authors full of deception. 

I just read this bit of ancient wisdom.  "If a man says to his brother, 'You are an apostate', then one of them is right."

[Unchained]

I'd tell this person that there's a fundamental difference between Laodicea and Babylon. Israel was the chosen people of God, even after they they erected pagan alters in God's temple. God never told the prophets to leave Israel and find a more worthy people to live among, instead they worked night and day in order to to turn the tide in Israel.

Likewise, the solution for a Church that has lost sight of Christ isn't to try to find a better Church elsewhere, but to be light and salt and humbly work for the salvation of our brothers and sisters. Jesus has promised that he's the good shepherd. He is in care of the flock, and if conditions become bad enough he'll interfere himself.

[pierrepaul]

On 11/19/2015, 3:18:10, Unchained said:

Likewise, the solution for a Church that has lost sight of Christ isn't to try to find a better Church elsewhere, but to be light and salt and humbly work for the salvation of our brothers and sisters.

Query: Would you offer the same advice to a Southern Baptist? A Presbyterian? A Roman Catholic?

[Unchained]

21 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

Query: Would you offer the same advice to a Southern Baptist? A Presbyterian? A Roman Catholic?

Good question!

I do think there's a fundamental difference between the advent people and other denominations. First and foremost we have to remember that the advent people is a prophetic movement, raised up by God in order to proclaim a very special message. God's purpose with the adventist church is far from finished.

I believe that God has many children in other churches too, but I wouldn't necessarily ask a Catholic or a Baptist to stay where they are. I'd gently tell a disillusioned baptist or catholic that it's possible to grow in their understanding of the Bible, that there is a people out there that has received more light than their current denominations. Still, I would also be honest and explain that my own denomination also needs reformation and revival, that they shouldn't expect adventists to be saints. In fact, at the present time I wouldn't recommend people to join the adventist Church unless they are familiar with the Laodicea message.

On the other hand, an adventist becoming disillusioned with the Church won't find more light or better conditions in other denominations. I don't really see any biblical reasons to assume that God will raise up another people to take the place of the advent people. Instead God has promised to refine the Church, to do a special work among us. If we leave the adventist Church we'll miss out on those things.

 

[Stan]

On November 11, 2015 at 6:09:57 AM, Reddogs said:

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized, and feel what is being taught in many Adventist churches and schools today are full of evolution,  spiritual formation, ecumenism into the power of the Papacy, and the SOP taken away and replaced with mans empty philosophy or popular authors full of deception. 

My person experience is this, the majority of those who say that, are saying something that is reflective of their own lives.

[Gregory Matthews]

People associate with the SDA Church through individual congregations.  Few have any real experience with the local Conference.  Fewer still with the Union Conference and just about none with the General Conference.

The following statement assumes that all local congregations are living up the expectations that God has for them.  In truth, some may not yet have reached that point in their spiritual journey.  NOTE:  Congregations may be on a spiritual journey just as much as individuals are on a spiritual journey.

It just may be that an individual congregation may not be able to be of spiritual help to someone--perhaps not the fault of any. 

I tell people that they should decide on a denomination to join on the basis of the following:

1) A belief that the Holy Spirit is leading them in that direction.

2) A belief that the denomination is teaching today what God wants taught as much as any imperfect, human organization is teaching.

Then I tell people who are looking at the SDA Church to visit as many congregations as they can.  To join one that they believe can be of benefit to their spiritual journey.  NOTE:  I am not getting here into an expansion of this such as a congregation in which they can  contribute to the life and mission of the congregation.

 

On the other hand, an adventist becoming disillusioned with the Church won't find more light or better conditions in other denominations. I don't really see any biblical reasons to assume that God will raise up another people to take the place of the advent people. Instead God has promised to refine the Church, to do a special work among us. If we leave the adventist Church we'll miss out on those things.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I want to expand more on some of the issues involved in selecting a congregation with which to associate and join.

My wife and I are moving to a new area which has a large number of SDA congregations.

In researching this area, I came up with a list of some 19 congregations that we could chose from.

NOTE:

1) We are willing to drive 20 to 25 miles to attend.

2)  I ruled out a number of congregations.  E.G.  We do not want to have to listen to the sermon through a translator--we have done enough of that when we lived in Asia and Central America.

From this list of 19 congregations, I selected 3 as the top ones that we wanted to take a look at.

1)  Congregations have personalities.  We have removed one of the three because it has a focus that is not where we are today.  It has a focus on middle aged families who have children in elementary school.  They do an excellent job in providing for such families and supporting them in their spiritual journey and the children involved.  We will look for a congregation who has this included in their focus, but has a larger focus than this.

2)  The SDA Church today includes people from a range of belief and life style.  We are looking for a congregation that reaches out to this range in belief  and life style.  We have excluded some congregations who do not appear to be inclusive of people at different stages of spiritual growth.  We are giving thought to those who embrace people at different stages of spiritual growth.

3)  We appreciate congregations that have a leader, but are willing to give members a role in the life and function of the congregation.

This is just a comment or two.  I could say more, but I need to get off the Internet now. 

 

[JoeMo]

Gregory,

I didn't realize you had moved away from Boulder!  Colorado's loss, California's gain!  Praying that  you find a church in California as awesome as the one you just left.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, we have moved.  We clearly believe that God been involved in this.  Much has gone very well.  Not 100%.  We checked into a hotel in mid-October and will probably be in such until sometime in January.  We had not expected that.  But, such it is.

Yesterday we moved from a  hotel room to a one-bedroom place which actually has multiple rooms and probably more than 1,000 square feet of floor space.  It is old and a very strange layout.  But other than a very small bathroom, expansive and Sharon has made it quite comfortable and nice.  It is part of a hotel that has some one and two bedroom homes in addition to their individual rooms and suites.

Now we can wait it out.

However, when we moved from Colorado we did not expect to be in a hotel this long.  Not in our wildest dreams.   So, we did not pack December clothing in our car when we drove it out.

We do have our two vehicles.  We shipped the second and drove the first.

Thank you for your nice words.  Colorado was very good to us.

 

[Kevin H]

Congratulations on your move!

Sometimes I have noticed (and thought that the conference planned it but turns out it didn't) some churches have a culture towards a major employer in the area. I noticed near a number of military bases you either had one church that very much has the military culture, a pastor who is former military or at least familiar with the culture, and these churches have a strong impact on the base with a number attending. The Bases that do not have a church like this in the area the churches have few if any military members and little to no influence on the base.

I noticed that the church near Travis AFB did not have a military feel, but carried the culture of the workers for the prison and it had the same impact on the prison workers as towns with the military emphases congregation had on the military bases.

I live in a place where it's about 40 miles in 3 different directions to four churches. One town now has two churches. The one church started out because two women were voted to be church elders. They had a pastor who thought it was wrong to have women elders so he gave them a very hard time. The daughter of one of these ladies is a marriage and family therapist and so they started a church for the children and friends of the children and other children in the neighborhood. (by the way, the pastor who was giving them a hard time has completely changed his views on women's ordination. He moved from the area a number of years ago but says that he daily lives with the guilt of how he treated them and prays for their church).  So we have one more traditional church which is the Adventist church for the area, and the other is an outreach church serving the community.