How do you answer a member who feels the church has apostacized?

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, In Colorado I  lived in a small town that had two SDA Churches.  At onetime, it had only one.  It split because two groups developed who each insisted that things go their way.  Over the several years that the split occurred, one has developed a more conservative approach and the other more liberal.  However, neither goes to an extreme.  Both are reasonable in relating to people.

I have some very strong feelings over the Conference allowing the two congregations to develop.  I think that the Conference should have intervened.

However,  at this point in time, after several years of separation, both congregations are now functioning as viable congregations.

[Gregory Matthews]

In Colorado, I attended the Boulder congregation, as many of you know.  It was the 3rd largest congregation in the Conference. It has always had a broad spectrum of people in belief, life style, and in social/economic status.  It has had female and African-American pastors.

In general members have been quite accepting of people who were not exactly like themselves.  However, every time there was a pastoral change a few would transfer to another congregation.  All who remained would live in harmony.

Under the present leadership, a large number of young families, either with no children or with very young children have joined.  It is now meeting the spiritual needs of a group that it previously did not reach.  Yet it retains the older people.  Yes, some have left to join other congregations.  But, it is no longer a dying congregation.

NOTE: In its beginning it was a hospital church.  It was on the same land as the hospital.  Ellen White  once spoke at it.  Now the hospital has moved miles away.  It is no longer a hospital congregation.

NOTE:  Don't get me started on the hospital moving.  The SDA Church blew it very big time.

 

 

[Live4Him]

On 11/11/2015, 3:09:57, Reddogs said:

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized, and feel what is being taught in many Adventist churches and schools today are full of evolution,  spiritual formation, ecumenism into the power of the Papacy, and the SOP taken away and replaced with mans empty philosophy or popular authors full of deception. 

I would say they are exactly right. The Bible predicts it, sister White predicts it but not many in the church will admit it is happening now. I would also say that Christ is ultimately in charge and all the terrible things happening in the church at present will be shaken out eventually. I wondered about this for some time and prayed a lot about it because I want the best for my church and I see frankly disgusting things starting to take place. I realized that all one can do is to make sure our own life is surrendered 110% to Christ and we are walking in His righteousness being a good example and then try to share with our fellow church members and help them understand the times we are living in. I preached in our church a couple weeks ago a pretty hard sermon. Some were angry but others were relieved and thanked me because they had felt like they were all alone. All we can do is plainly speak the Truth in love and let the Word cut and leave the results with God. (Prov 27:6) Sister White states the reason pastors are so ineffective is because they are afraid of hurting peoples feelings so they cover up the truth. Sometimes it is discouraging but don't focus on the negative focus on Jesus. The key is we must see the big picture. We are in a spiritual war. Don't take it personally when you see someone from the conference or a local pastor working in a manner that seems they are decieving people we are told about wolves entering in and killing the sheep. We are told over and over these deceptions will happen. Just realize that this is just part of the battle and take it to Christ and ask Him for the strategy to beat whatever attack satan is making. God loves each and every person and wants all to be saved and we should work...really work to try and reach those in our churches who are not studying or are being deceived. And not everyone in the conference or pastoral positions are bad, there are still men of God trying to do the good work for the Lord. They need our prayers because they are fighting a very hard battle. 

[Martn]

On 11/10/2015 at 11:51 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

1) People seldom leave over doctrine.

2) People  leave over relationships and spiritual injury.

 

[Jessie-Jess]

On 11/11/2015 at 6:09 PM, Reddogs said:

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized, and feel what is being taught in many Adventist churches and schools today are full of evolution,  spiritual formation, ecumenism into the power of the Papacy, and the SOP taken away and replaced with mans empty philosophy or popular authors full of deception. 

I suppose before you say anything to them, you should do the research to see whether these things are really so, and look into the history to see what our church was like before, and the values that they held and compare the past with today, then get together with your friend to have prayer for yourselves and your church. 

[Kevin H]

38 minutes ago, Jessie-Jess said:

I suppose before you say anything to them, you should do the research to see whether these things are really so, and look into the history to see what our church was like before, and the values that they held and compare the past with today, then get together with your friend to have prayer for yourselves and your church. 

Yes we need to check things, however, we have been a church of growth, and a church of diversity. The people who tend to complain about the church going into apostasy have been complaining since 1888. In the early 1900s they even accused Mrs. White of apostasy and recommended not reading her newer works but to only read her older works and to have her interpreted by some of the pastors who taught their views. (Pastors who by the way I read a number of letters from both Ellen and nearly identical letters from Willie that was critical of them.) Granted as time went by they were able to find post 1888 works that they could  quote and they either said that people were messing with her writings, or changed the timing of these supposed heresies until after Mrs. White died.

They use to blame much on Willie (one even would use the texts about Samuel's sons and Aaron's sons as talking about Willie) and W. W. Prescott. I read one criticism of Prescott written in the early 1900s. It said that a certain heresy had come into the church during the 1890s when Prescott was helping Mrs. White with her works and has passed his beliefs into the church pretending that she was writing. Now the same criticism is again floating around the church except that they changed the name of Prescott to Froom and from it being Prescott's work with Mrs. White in the 1890s to Froom's own work from the 1950s.  If this heresy did not come into the church until the 1950's, why is it that the great-grandparents of these same people who are accusing Froom of introducing the heresy wrote the same complaint and blamed Prescott?

There is a group of people who believe that the gospel is the good news that the church is going to hell in a hand basket. They have had many of the same complaints for decades and as time goes by they like to re-package their old villains and turn them into hero's of their cause and place the blame on more modern villains.

 

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized...

I would suggest starting a new denomination that would be pure and free of apostasy. They could name it after themselves.

[Gregory Matthews]

There is such a denomination.  It is named "The Church of One." 

The spiritual head of that denomination attends the Boulder SDA Church, as he states that God has required him to do so and in compliance he has attended for probably more than ten (10) years.  [No, he is not a member of the SDA denomination.]

On a biographical note:  He is in his mid 80s as to age.  He still works full-time as a catenary engineer and is probably one of a half-dozen of the top world experts in his specialized field.  His name is Ian Hayes

He is an author who has written seven (7) books of poetry totaling 465 pages.  I do not think that they are either available to the public or that he sells them.  However, he does give them away to friends.

One of the unique things that he does is to take well known writings by other people and rewrite them as poetry.  When he does this he gives full credit to the source, which I have not done in those cited below.  [NOTE:  Also much of his writings is original. to him.]  Here are a couple of examples, both of which were written in the late 40s and early 50s:

1)  HOPE

"Hope is not pretending that troubles don't exist,

It is the trust in life they will finally desist.

Hope is a faith, a source of strength that's found in every one,

When all is dark renew your hope--for then you'll find the sun!

Based upon words from Elizabeth Chase."

2)  THE 23rd PSALM 

"The Lord is my shepherd, there is nothing I need,

Green are the pastures 'neath glorious skies,

And near restful waters he will comfort and lead

Where I can replenish my soul as I lie.

 

Though I walk in the valley of darkness and death

He is true to his name, and no evil I'll fear,

For he is beside me with rod and with staff,

And I shall be comforted while he is near.

 

He has measured my troubles and prepared with his hand,

A banquet for life in the sight of my foes.

He has taken my head in the palms of his hands,

And anoints It with oil and my cup overflows.

 

Goodness and mercy shall follow me still,

For the rest of my life I shall be by his side,

In the house of the Lord I shall constantly dwell

For ever and ever, till death be my bride.

Based on words from King David of Israel"

3)  I can't help it. the following was written in the 2014 to 2015 time frame and it was based upon a source for whom the copyright had expired and was in the public domain:

THE DIVINITY OF WORDS

"The Bible was written by the Hebrews of old.

With inward incitement by what they'd been told.

It was not of God's mode of expression or thought.

But by using his servants, through Divinity wrought.

 

God, as a writer, wasn't held manifest,

Though men will observe it's not God who's expressed.

For He didn't get into rhetoric or word,

Nor is logic on trial--it contains what was heard

By the writers who crafted his word with their pen;

Thus the Bible  contains his transactions through men.

 

It is not that the word of themselves were inspired,

But the men were inspired, and they did as required.

Such divine inspirations acts no only in words,

But on Man of himself and expressions observed,

Who, under  God's aegis, through the Holiest Ghost,

Were imbued with the thoughts that God favored the most.

 

When his words are impress on a consenting mind,

the wisdom of God is diffused in mankind,

Which then when his mind with man's will are combined,

The utterances of man are words truly divine.

Based upon words by Ellen G. White.

Envoi,

God has no hands to write, per se, and so He made another way;

He uses us to do his work, inspiring us,

. . . [sic.] we're just his clerk.'

 

 

 

  

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The WAnderer:  Excellent!
 

[Kevin H]

I found an interesting post on Facebook. Here is the post and my reply:

What do you think of the issue of our attacks on other churches. In particular it is popular in our church to attack the Catholic institution. But when reading this it sounds like it might not be productive.

Ellen White: "Do not denounce other denominations—When some who lack the Spirit and power of God enter a new field, they commence denouncing other denominations, thinking that they can convince the people of the truth by presenting the inconsistencies of the popular churches. It may seem necessary on some occasions to speak of these things, but in general it only creates prejudice against our work and closes the ears of many who might otherwise have listened to the truth. If these teachers were connected closely with Christ, they would have divine wisdom to know how to approach the people."—Testimonies for the Church 4:535. PaM 91.2

We, all of us have two attitudes fighting inside of us: There is our sinful nature. I like the discriptions by both the poet/philosopher Eli Siegel and the one by Ellen White. Siegel said "There is in all of us a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world." and Mrs. White says "There is in man a disposition to esteem himself more highly than his breathern; to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit."

 

Fighting this is a gift given to us in Genesis 3:15, something that sees evil as ugly and is attracted to beauty. Again Siegel says that our deepest desire is to like the world on an honest basis. Mrs. White says that when we love the world as Jesus has loved it then for us his mission is acomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts.

 

While the desire to be like and with Christ is our deepst desire, until we are born again it is our sinful nature which is in power. The attacking the outside world through the putting down other churches appeals to our sinful nature. Sadly we have suffered for this method of evangelism. We have attracted many into the church who believe that the gospel is the good news that the church is going to hell in a hand basket. They soon discover that even the Seventh-day Adventist church is part of that outside world that they have made a habit of making less of. And thus we get a lot of members who get their glory in putting down the outside world.

 

Our first criticisim of other churches was how tightly they held to a creed, while we are willing to grow, but also hold to only a handful of landmarks and outside of the landmarks, as long as we were not fanatical, willing to question our beliefs and listen to other's questions of what we believe, we could believe what we wish. But too many of us want a strict creed of their views forced on the rest of us.

[Jessie-Jess]

On 5/13/2016 at 4:31 PM, Aliensanctuary said:

I would suggest starting a new denomination that would be pure and free of apostasy. They could name it after themselves.

They already have a new denomination called the "Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement" or sdarm, except it's not that new. 

[hch]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 6:09 AM, Reddogs said:

What do you say to a brother or sister in Christ who says the Adventist church has apostatized, and feel what is being taught in many Adventist churches and schools today are full of evolution,  spiritual formation, ecumenism into the power of the Papacy, and the SOP taken away and replaced with mans empty philosophy or popular authors full of deception. 

Brother _ tells me that the Adventist denomination has apostatized all the time and that God's people will not remain in it. I have pointed him to the messages to the churches in Revelation where Christ notes the Churches' good points and their errors. No where in that biblical record does Christ command anyone to leave any of the 7 churches. But Jesus does tell the people who are in those churches what they are to do to escape the condemnation that will come to those who do not hear and heed His reproof.

The problem with Laodicea is that the Laodiceans in general think that they have heard Christ's corrections and that it is their brethren (everybody else in Laodicea) that needs to hear and act on the message. The message to Laodicea is that it is in apostasy. Laodicea as Jesus portrays it is not Hot or Cold, it is Lukewarm. Lukewarm is not as Jesus would have Laodicea  to be. Thus since 1844, Laodicea has been polluted by doctrines that Satan has thrust into the churches unless it is possible that Satan has attacked all of the churches except Laodicea. And since Jesus said Laodicea is Lukewarm, it follows that something has come into Laodicea to dampen her zeal for Jesus.

But Laodicea looks at her teachings and does not see anything wrong with them. Greg's example of the church in Boulder splitting over a conservative and liberal mindset shows that there is something wrong with Laodicea better than I can show. Christ's instruction to Laodicea was not to split into separate congregations because of conservative and liberal viewpoints. That is not the unity that Jesus prayed for when He was on earth.

The boulder solution is not God's solution. God would have us come together in unity and divide to keep the congregations from getting too big. Instead of one big church in town several small churches is better, but not divided along lines pf Greg's example: united in doctrine and dispersed to make more light houses throughout the city.

 

 

[hch]

When the wheat and tares grew together in 1888, who was the administrative class in the SDA church? Was it the wheat or the tares?

The divisive message in 1888 was of Righteousness by faith. Was EGW for the message? Was the leadership for it or against it? Did EGW leave the church because the leadership was not living up to the light that God was sending?

If we expect to send Church leaders and educators off to schools outside of our denomination to get some part of their degrees so that they will not be 100% SDA educated can we expect that they will never bring anything that is questionable back into the church with them. Or that they will not teach it to their students? or that they will not put it into practice in their administration?

If we as individuals live up to the light that we have God will send us more light. And as we share that light, God will let the solo member encounter the 7000 others that have never bent the knee to baal  and through the remnant within the church, God will do what He has promised. But when the third and fourth angel unite to do their work, it will alarm the tares.

[Aliensanctuary]

A person could actually obtain ministerial credentials online which would enable them to conduct weddings and funerals in most states, besides conducting weekly services. They can choose the name of the church that they form and determine its doctrines. This is how one could eliminate apostasy and not allow apostates as attendees or members, by creating a new church that is purer than the wind-driven snow. The organizers would, however, be obligated to follow the laws of the state or county or city wherever they establish their church. I suppose they could even create an online church.

The Pharisees, too, struggled to eliminate "apostasy" when the upstart, Jesus Christ, introduced heresy into the Jewish faith. Christ, of course, demonstrated that it isn't hard-line religion that people need, but a redirection towards serving others and focusing on meeting their needs. In the Kingdom, the Laws of YHVH will be programmed into our minds, and, with Self dead, the needs of others will be more important than our own.

We can warm the pews in any denomination we choose, but it's following Christ's teachings that matter. We can associate with the churches of the Prodigal Son's brother who was angry about the feast given upon his apostate brother's return, or, we can associate with the churches of the Prodigal Son, who said, "I am not worthy to be called your son. Let me be your slave."

[Kevin H]

Of course our solution is to only have the one church united in the conservative elements.

[debbym]

tell them to look to Jesus, for their walk with God, not to the church.

tell them to look to Jesus to care for the church, to cleanse it, to shake it, to purify it, and to build it and empower it to witness.

[hch]

18 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Of course our solution is to only have the one church united in the conservative elements.

Kevin, you hit the nail on the head.

But if God does not change from eon to eon, His conservative point of view might not be the same thing as our what we think of as "conservative"

Wouldn't that mean that even our most "conservative" congregations have apostatized from God's standard?

[Gregory Matthews]

My comments, below, are in response to a comment of Jessie, which I have quoted at the end of this post.

The SDA Reform Movement (SDARM) is an interesting group, which I first became aware of more than 50 years ago.

The SDARM traces its beginning to a complex set of events that include what was clearly wrong-doing on the part of certain denominational leaders in Germany.  The extent of that wrong-doing is probably little understood by people today, to include members of the SDARM.  IOW, IT was potentially greater than what is known.  If my memory is correct,  Dr. Ronald Lawson has done some work in this area of denominational history and has uncovered more than has generally been known.  However, there are several points that should be recognized as this situation is considered.

The wrong-doing was done in a purely local situation.  It did not involve the world-wide SDA Church.  Due to the war-time conditions that existed the General Conference was not able to intervene until after the war.   At that time the GC attempted to resolve the issue and bring people  together in a unity.   This effort failed.  I do not attach blame to this failure.  It simply is a fact of life that sometimes we cannot bring people together.  Sometimes that may be because the problem has existed for to long.

There is another issue which I consider to be very important.  Yes, it is true that certain local denominational leaders failed in their responsibility and did wrong.  But, wrong-doing was not limited to the SDA denominational leaders.  The facts of  this situation reveal that major wrong-doing was committed by people within the SDARM.  Probably, just as it was with SDA leadership, this was a localized situation that included a few SDARM people and not that of higher level people.  But, the result is that people on both sides committed wrong.  None were perfect.

You will note that my comments acknowledge that there was some seperation prior to the events that I am thinking about.  Yes, that is true.  I am not discussing those issues which are some of the more common ones that have resulted in other groups separating from us.

NOTE:  Over the passage of time the separated group has split into about three (or two, depending on how you define it) different groups.  What is commonly called the SDARM is one of those groups.  One of those groups has its regional HQ in the metro-Denver area and I often drove by it when I lived in the Metro-Denver area. 

In my experience with these people I find them to generally be more conservative than many of our conservative members.  Also I find them to be much less "in-your-face" than they once were.

 

Jessie-Jess said:

They already have a new denomination called the "Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement" or sdarm, except it's not that new. 

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH said, below:

I apologize for a  lack of clarity.  The congregation that split was not in Boulder, Colorado,  It was in a different town.   Further, while these two congregations can be called conservative and liberal (within limits),  the reason for the split was more involved than that.   Personal relationships were a big factor.  It is probably personal relationships that prevent the two congregations from uniting at this period of time.

Speaking personally, I will make two comments about this split:

1)  I believe that at the time of the split, the local Conference could have been helpful, but was not.

2)   I believe that a retired denominational administrator, who was a congregational member, contributed to the split at a time when he should have been more helpful. 

3)  At this point in time, I question whether or not the issues can be resolved and the split healed in a manner that joins the congregations and increases the effectiveness of the SDA Church in that area.

The Boulder SDA congregation is the 3rd largest congregation in the Conference.  It is an eclectic congregation with a range of members who get along.  It is true that when it has a change in pastors, some members leave to join other congregations and others move their memberships to the Boulder congregation.  But, that is to be expected.  Regardless, those who remain constitute a good range of people in their theology, economic status, and in other characteristics. 

Quote

Greg's example of the church in Boulder splitting over a conservative and liberal mindset . . .

[hch]

The Scriptures say that the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. In Christ's day, the tares turned out to be the church leaders. In 1888, history repeated itself (the leadership was on the wrong side of the issue).

Should we expect it to be different on the eve of Christ's Advent?

God worked through His faithful people to accomplish His will in the past and He will do it again in spite of who are the wheat and who are the tares.

God knows who is who and we don't have to judge the matter, we just have to do what God requires of us.

[CoAspen]

I hear some insinuation in the above statement, (....tares turned out to be the church leaders. In 1888, history repeated itself.. Should we expect it to be different on the eve of Christ's Advent?) regardless of the disclaimer( God knows.... we don't have to judge the matter.....), is that your intention?

[Rossw]

What is the church?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

13 hours ago, hch said:

The Scriptures say that the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. In Christ's day, the tares turned out to be the church leaders. In 1888, history repeated itself (the leadership was on the wrong side of the issue).

Should we expect it to be different on the eve of Christ's Advent?

God worked through His faithful people to accomplish His will in the past and He will do it again in spite of who are the wheat and who are the tares.

God knows who is who and we don't have to judge the matter, we just have to do what God requires of us.

while history can and does repeat itself, if we only look the past to predict the future, I think that sets us up to miss other relevant facts and happenings ..

[Rossw]

21 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

while history can and does repeat itself, if we only look the past to predict the future, I think that sets us up to miss other relevant facts and happenings ..

People as a whole never change. See documentary "Boom Bust Boom".

[hch]

Quote

 

CoAspen

I hear some insinuation in the above statement, (....tares turned out to be the church leaders. In 1888, history repeated itself.. Should we expect it to be different on the eve of Christ's Advent?) regardless of the disclaimer( God knows.... we don't have to judge the matter.....), is that your intention?

 

God does the judging.

As individuals, we are required to be faithful to God.

Leadership and be either a blessing (Moses & Joshua) or a curse (King Ahab, etc.)

But God puts leaders in their position and He removes them as He sees best.

I once had a pastor who was a Baptist at heart. I sent him a private e-mail for clarification on one of his sermons. Was shocked by his reply. Prayed that God would send someone else to minister in that pulpit. Then one day he preached a sermon that ripped at my heart. I bowed in the pew and prayed "How long Lord must we hear this..." He abruptly stopped the sermon and quit on the spot.

The conference sent another man cut from almost the same cloth. I prayed for him until I was impressed not to. I told him I had stopped praying for him (because I prayed for a lady and she died). He had a big belly laugh and asked me to pray for him anyway. I did and the Tuesday prayer group started praying too. They prayed "Lord we love our pastor, but he's not a right fit for our church. Please send us someone else." He died suddenly while on a mission trip in his mid 40's.

WE never prayed for his harm. Just a new man who would feed the sheep from the fountain of Heaven.

The Lord is able to change the heart, replace the leader, or lay him to rest if that is the best thing in God's sight. If our leaders should prove themselves unfit to give the 3rd angel's message, God is able to manage the situation.