How do you answer a member who feels the church has apostacized?

[hch]

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Pam

while history can and does repeat itself, if we only look the past to predict the future, I think that sets us up to miss other relevant facts and happenings ..

Sometimes history does repeat itself. 

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It is “unto them that look for him” that Christ is to “appear the second time, without sin unto salvation.” [Hebrews 9:28.] Like the tidings of the Saviour's birth, the message of the second advent was not committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had refused light from Heaven; therefore they were not of the number described by the apostle Paul: “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness.” [1 Thessalonians 5:4, 5.]  {GC88 315.1}
     The watchmen upon the walls of Zion should have been the first to catch the tidings of the Saviour's advent, the first to lift their voices to proclaim him near, the first to warn the people to prepare for his coming. But they were at ease, dreaming of peace and safety, while the people were asleep in their sins. Jesus saw his church, like the barren fig-tree, covered with pretentious leaves, yet destitute of precious fruit. There was a boastful observance of the forms of religion, while the spirit of true humility, penitence, and faith—which alone could render the service acceptable to God—was lacking. Instead of the graces of the Spirit, there were manifested pride, formalism, vainglory, selfishness, oppression. A backsliding church closed their eyes to the signs of the times. God did not forsake them, or suffer his faithfulness to fail; but they departed from him, and separated themselves from his love. As they refused to comply with the conditions, his promises were not fulfilled to them.  {GC88 315.2}
     Such is the sure result of neglect to appreciate and improve the light and privileges which God bestows. Unless the church will follow on in his opening providence, accepting every ray of light, performing every duty which may be revealed, religion will inevitably degenerate into the observance of forms, and the spirit of vital godliness will disappear. This truth has been repeatedly illustrated in the history of the church. God requires of his people works of faith and obedience corresponding to the blessings and privileges bestowed. Obedience requires a sacrifice and involves a cross; and this is why so many of the professed followers of Christ refused to receive the light from Heaven, and, like the Jews of old, knew not the time of their visitation. [Luke 19:44.] Because of their pride and unbelief, the Lord passed them by and revealed his truth to those who, like the shepherds of Bethlehem and the Eastern magi, had given heed to all the light they had received.  {GC88 316.1}

It will not be long, Christ is even at the door

[CoAspen]

hah,

Wow!!! I have never heard such arrogance uttered about the happenings to the pastors in your church.

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But God puts leaders in their position and He removes them as He sees best.

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I bowed in the pew and prayed "How long Lord must we hear this..." He abruptly stopped the sermon and quit on the spot.

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They prayed "Lord we love our pastor, but he's not a right fit for our church. Please send us someone else." He died suddenly while on a mission trip in his mid 40's.

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WE never prayed for his harm. Just a new man who would feed the sheep from the fountain of Heaven.

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The Lord is able to change the heart, replace the leader, or lay him to rest if that is the best thing in God's sight.

Perhaps you should consider another possibility.....Satan? Do you really think God was answering your prayers in such a way? Your view of God is not one I would ever want another person to believe in! 

[hch]

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CoAspen

Perhaps you should consider another possibility.....Satan? Do you really think God was answering your prayers in such a way? Your view of God is not one I would ever want another person to believe in!

 

CoAspen 

It is hard to distinguish between truth and error. As I understand it, the church that EGW called Laodicea has 21m members and it will be hard pressed to come up with 144k when Jesus comes. But the condemnation upon Laodicea is because she feels that she has need of nothing when she is poor wretched miserable blind and naked. But Laodicea thinks that she is rich and in need of nothing. Woe unto the rich men who cry for the rocks to fall upon them.

I pray that I will view myself as God sees me, no better lest I'm too good for Heaven and no worse lest I give up in discouragement.

Christian regards

 

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, hch said:

As I understand it, the church that EGW called Laodicea has 21m members

I infer that you are referring to the SDA denomination.  All SDAs are NOT Laodiceans; and  there are many other denominations who have people from Laodicea in them.  Furthermore, If God says there is a special group called "the 144,000", it won't be hard for God to come up with that many.  Then there is the unnumbered multitude. If God has a hard time saving 144,000, how much harder will it be to save a unnumbered multitude?

[CoAspen]

hch,

You did not answer the question....Do you really think God was answering your prayers in such a way?

By the way I do know what church you were/are a member of when talking about the pastor.

[CoAspen]

hch,

How about a Bible source for numbering who will go to heaven or not!

Here is another idea, instead of praying for the pastor to 'preach' to your liking, pray that you will have a change of heart and understanding.....think positive!

[hch]

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CoAspen

You did not answer the question....Do you really think God was answering your prayers in such a way?

By the way I do know what church you were/are a member of when talking about the pastor.

 

 

I overlooked your question.

We are told to pray for one another. I prayed for the pastors. I never prayed for their harm. I prayed for their salvation and their ministry in Christ. God answered my prayers as He saw fit.

But when we discern that a pastor or Church leader is going astray (even if it is by small steps) and we attempt to discretely give godly counsel and they manifest an attitude that they have a dr of div degree and who is going to tell them anything, maybe pride goes before their fall?

The Adventist world is a small universe, lots of people know where I have gone to church and where I now attend. It is not a secret.

But do you know my Savior? It is far better to know about Jesus than about me.

[hch]

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CoAspen

How about a Bible source for numbering who will go to heaven or not!

Here is another idea, instead of praying for the pastor to 'preach' to your liking, pray that you will have a change of heart and understanding.....think positive!

 

I was wondering why Sister White said that not 1 in a hundred SDA's would be what they ought to be when Jesus comes? If the pastors are preaching the right message at the right time, shouldn't we expect more of the members to be ready? 1 in 100 (from 21m would be 210k).

The devil is in the details. But it looks like a catch 22 sit... Of course, even if some of the preachers are doing their job, they cant do it alone. The members have to get off their seat of understanding and take hold of the work too.

In spite of some of your misgivings, I am a positive person. I am positive that Jesus will come while President Obama is in office and we won't be ready. That is a criminal shame. 

[CoAspen]

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Here is another idea, instead of praying for the pastor to 'preach' to your liking, pray that you will have a change of heart and understanding.........

 

[hch]

 

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CoAspen

Here is another idea, instead of praying for the pastor to 'preach' to your liking, pray that you will have a change of heart and understanding.........

 

You assume too much.

When a seeker for truth prays for truth and they hear error from the pulpit, it leave a bad sound in their ears like hearing bad advice from whomever will give it.

Did Apostasy begin in the churches of Asia that Jesus rebuked through John in an overt way, or was it a gradual falling away? But sadly, those to whom Jesus directed His rebuke often thought and acted as though they were the ones established in the truth and it was their brethren who needed the messages. Better to measure ones self against the message and pray for God to do the work in us that He would have done while there is still time to do it.

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, hch said:

When a seeker for truth prays for truth and they hear error from the pulpit, it leave a bad sound in their ears like hearing bad advice from whomever will give it.

Did you ever consider the possibility that what is being preached from the pulpit may be the  truth; and that your current perception of "truth" might be in error?  It is a good thing to keep an open mind; and not just giving blanket dismissal to anyone's opinion that doesn't fit your model - you might learn something.  A closed mind is a dangerous thing ...

[hch]

27 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Did you ever consider the possibility that what is being preached from the pulpit may be the  truth; and that your current perception of "truth" might be in error?  It is a good thing to keep an open mind; and not just giving blanket dismissal to anyone's opinion that doesn't fit your model - you might learn something.  A closed mind is a dangerous thing ...

JoeMo,

Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit. When Truth and error collide, we need to pray for discernment. When we encounter error and identify that it is error, we need to be kind to those who are covered by Satan's shadow, but we are not called to give up truth so that they will not be irritated by our standing up for the truth. By nature truth irritates error. It was true in the days of Christ and it will be more true as His coming draws near.

The example that comes to mind is the US Supreme Court's decision on homosexual marriage. That is the law of the land, but it is not the law of God. Since it is US law, how do we allow this sin without sinning ourselves? The more firmly we uphold God's law on that issue, the more we will offend those who have accepted this deviation from truth.

That is only an example, but it makes the point that not every model that people emulate is God's model. The Lord said that we are to show ourselves approved of God (not man) and Jesus asked "How do you read it?" I don't have to answer for others nor do they have to answer for me. With the exception, if I claim to have truth, I am obligated to give the warning (to share the truth). That clears me of the loss of folks who do not accept the warning. 

The Lord does not have any difficulty distinguishing His sheep from the goats. At the time of His appointing, those who lack discernment will be acutely aware of their lack as it is taught in the parable of the Ten Virgins. 5 on time vs 5 too late

[JoeMo]

hch,

Discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit. When Truth and error collide, we need to pray for discernment. When we encounter error and identify that it is error, we need to be kind to those who are covered by Satan's shadow, but we are not called to give up truth so that they will not be irritated by our standing up for the truth. By nature truth irritates error. It was true in the days of Christ and it will be more true as His coming draws near.

It works in both directions.  Given your interpretations of scripture, do you think the church has apostatized?  If so, how should we answer you?

[hch]

31 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

hch,

It works in both directions.  Given your interpretations of scripture, do you think the church has apostatized?  If so, how should we answer you?

How can it be determined if the Church has apostatized?

Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Is the Church keeping the Law and the testimony?

As I read the testimony of Daniel, President Obama is America's last President. If I declare my understanding of Daniel to the Church as a watchman who has been blessed by biblical discernment and it honestly looks at the message and finds it without merit, the Church has done due diligence. The law gives instruction as to hwo the church is to heed the watchman's warnings. But if the church rejects the message without honestly looking at the substance (whether the message is true or a lie) then the church has failed to do due diligence. 1) by not looking 2) by allowing a soul (the watchman) to be deceived that they could have pointed to the straight and narrow if they had but looked (see the Spirit of Prophecy's counsel to those who could have used their influence to bring Kellogg back into the fold, but did not), and 3) for the church to be in need of nothing (it shuts the door to Christ). 

The wait and see method of Bible study did not work in Noah's day or Lot's day and Jesus said it would be the same way before the Son of man came. That type of Bible study is not sanctioned by God who gives wisdom to all who take the time to prayerfully ask for it.

A watchman who is enlightened by the Holy Spirit is not responsible for how the church hears the warning. He is obligated to give what he has discovered through Bible study and to pray that he message will be received by those who are of an honest heart. Teh hearers are obligated to do their part - react appropriately to the warning.

[CoAspen]

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With the exception, if I claim to have truth, I am obligated to give the warning (to share the truth). That clears me of the loss of folks who do not accept the warning. 

When people look at and explore your 'truth' and find it lacking, you declare them to be apostatized. That is very convenient, all are wrong unless they see it your way.   "clears me" sounds very much like Pilate and washing of his hands declaring himself to not being responsible for what happens later. 

You are trying to use two different stories from the Bible to prove your point when in fact they are addressing different issues. The goats and sheep was about those who claimed to know God but had no love for their fellow man. The 10 Virgins was about being ready at all times.

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A watchman who is enlightened by the Holy Spirit is not responsible for how the church hears the warning. He is obligated to give what he has discovered through Bible study and to pray that he message will be received by those who are of an honest heart. Teh hearers are obligated to do their part - react appropriately to the warning.

Who declared you to be a Watchman? I know the JW's use that claim. Again, where is your humility? Sounds anything but!! You are not preaching love but rather condemnation. Christ said 'I have not come to condemn the world but to save it'.

[hch]

1 hour ago, CoAspen said:

. Christ said 'I have not come to condemn the world but to save it'.

Salvation is a gift from God, but He does not force those who explain it away to accept what they have explained away.

One of my former pastors, who ordained me as a local elder, once discouraged me from studying the word because I kept finding things that he had not been taught in seminary. And I kept asking him deep questions. I stopped studying for a while (at his promptings), and God called me back to the study with an unmistakable calling. That pastor, now retired, often calls me with theological questions even though his brother-in-law is a retired author of books on eschatology/Bible teacher retired from a major SDA University.