GayatfootofCross Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 When Drunken Germans Crashed the Last Supper Guest Post by Pete Kelley http://kenwytsma.com/ In 1573, Paolo Veronese was commissioned to paint a giant portrayal of the Last Supper that would take up an entire wall of the Basilica di Santi Giovanni e Paolo in Venice. They were expecting him to come up with something similar to Da Vinci’s famous last supper scene, but here’s what Veronese came up with instead: Instead of a intimate portrayal of Jesus sharing his last meal with his disciples, you have this huge, 42-foot wide feast. If you zoom in a look closely you can find each of the disciples seated at the table, but then all around them are all these other zany and out of place characters. There are cats and dogs and Arabs and Germans and jesters and drunks and some poor guy with a nose bleed. So when Veronese unveiled his Last Supper the church was ticked. He had taken this holy, sacred moment and scandalized it. They put him on trial for heresy. At one point they asked him, “Does it seem suitable to you, in the Last Supper of our Lord, to represent buffoons, drunken Germans, dwarfs, and other such absurdities?” They decided that they would not tolerate an image of Jesus eating with all these “unholy” kinds of people and they told him he had three months to change the painting and make it right—to get rid of all the weirdos and outsiders, and make it a proper portrayal of Last Supper. Here’s what Veronese did: with a stroke of artistic rebellion, instead of taking any of the wild characters out of the painting, he made one little change: He added an inscription on one of the columns that says, “LVCA. CAP. V.” or “Luke, Chapter 5” and he changed the name of the painting to “Feast in the House of Levi.” Luke 5:29-30: Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” And the Inquisition didn’t say another word. The Roman Church fell into the same trap as the Pharisees and teachers of the law. They believed that there was only a select group of sanitized people who should be invited to a place at the table with Jesus. But Jesus seems to have no problem sharing meals with tax collectors and sinners, jesters and even Germans. Here’s what I think this story might expose in us: Some of us believe the lie that Jesus is only interested in people like us. Think of all the horrible racist or oppressive movements throughout church history that are rooted in this lie: that we are God’s favorite, that we are the ones he wants at his table and everyone else is intruding on our holy experience. Apparently, Jesus doesn’t see it that way. His table is way bigger than we think. This is why I believe that the church should be the most diverse and inclusive community in the world. Where sinners and tax collectors, rich and poor, young and old, black and white and every color in between find common fellowship in Christ. So, who is it that you have the hardest time believing is invited to the table? ............................................................................................................................................................................. Going by many posts all over the Internet on Mainly Christian Web Sites and even the (largely Christian) GOP Platform.. .. it is fitting that this is under Gender and Homosexuality (LGBTIQQAP) Sub Forum - See more at: http://kenwytsma.com/#sthash.PnS0RDrc.dpuf Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 3 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said: When Drunken Germans Crashed the Last Supper Guest Post by Pete Kelley http://kenwytsma.com/ In 1573, Paolo Veronese was commissioned to paint a giant portrayal of the Last Supper that would take up an entire wall of the Basilica di Santi Giovanni e Paolo in Venice. They were expecting him to come up with something similar to Da Vinci’s famous last supper scene, but here’s what Veronese came up with instead: Instead of a intimate portrayal of Jesus sharing his last meal with his disciples, you have this huge, 42-foot wide feast. If you zoom in a look closely you can find each of the disciples seated at the table, but then all around them are all these other zany and out of place characters. There are cats and dogs and Arabs and Germans and jesters and drunks and some poor guy with a nose bleed. So when Veronese unveiled his Last Supper the church was ticked. He had taken this holy, sacred moment and scandalized it. They put him on trial for heresy. At one point they asked him, “Does it seem suitable to you, in the Last Supper of our Lord, to represent buffoons, drunken Germans, dwarfs, and other such absurdities?” They decided that they would not tolerate an image of Jesus eating with all these “unholy” kinds of people and they told him he had three months to change the painting and make it right—to get rid of all the weirdos and outsiders, and make it a proper portrayal of Last Supper. Here’s what Veronese did: with a stroke of artistic rebellion, instead of taking any of the wild characters out of the painting, he made one little change: He added an inscription on one of the columns that says, “LVCA. CAP. V.” or “Luke, Chapter 5” and he changed the name of the painting to “Feast in the House of Levi.” Luke 5:29-30: Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” And the Inquisition didn’t say another word. The Roman Church fell into the same trap as the Pharisees and teachers of the law. They believed that there was only a select group of sanitized people who should be invited to a place at the table with Jesus. But Jesus seems to have no problem sharing meals with tax collectors and sinners, jesters and even Germans. Here’s what I think this story might expose in us: Some of us believe the lie that Jesus is only interested in people like us. Think of all the horrible racist or oppressive movements throughout church history that are rooted in this lie: that we are God’s favorite, that we are the ones he wants at his table and everyone else is intruding on our holy experience. Apparently, Jesus doesn’t see it that way. His table is way bigger than we think. This is why I believe that the church should be the most diverse and inclusive community in the world. Where sinners and tax collectors, rich and poor, young and old, black and white and every color in between find common fellowship in Christ. So, who is it that you have the hardest time believing is invited to the table? ............................................................................................................................................................................. Going by many posts all over the Internet on Mainly Christian Web Sites and even the (largely Christian) GOP Platform.. .. it is fitting that this is under Gender and Homosexuality (LGBTIQQAP) Sub Forum - See more at: http://kenwytsma.com/#sthash.PnS0RDrc.dpuf …22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'.....Matthew 7 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee....Ezekial 28 OTOH these below are those most likely to be there. Considering that Lucifer was among the heavenly host and was created perfect from the beginning, indicates clearly not all that are invited will find eternal life there. …24"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."....John 17 As one pastor has said, "We are saved from our sins, not in our sins." 7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with mena 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God....1 Corinthians 6 God is Love! Jesus saves! Green Cochoa 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 This blog warmed my heart! We as a church has failed miserably of inviting and welcoming people who don't look like us and believe as we do. Here this Artist has the First Christians (even while bickering who is first in the kingdom of God ..so much for reflecting God's Heart) also... Buffoons/Jesters/Fools (do a word study on 'fools' alone!) Germans ( mostly protestants against the mother church! ..o dear) Arabs ( think of today's politics) Drunks (any addict -whatever drug/coping mechanism of choice looked upon as gutter rats and having no societal self control and sorely irresponsible ) Tax Collectors (treasonous cohorts of a Violent and Godless Oppressive Regime cause of Greed and Riches) Dwarfs ( physically imperfect at birth..parents punished for their sins??? ..by God) Dogs and Cats running freely about symbolizing unclean and dirty Household. All at the Table of JESUS! Welcomed! Welcomed! Welcomed! All marginalized and looked down upon by the Righteous Church! Some thru bad choices and some thru no fault of their own. All condemned. All these people you can use scriptures to kick to the curb. And still do When many People think of Gays,in their hearts,..they think of their sins When God thinks of Gays, in HIS Heart, .. He thinks of His Children He died to save. Pay no mind to Christians who don't reflect God's heart. It blocks the CROSS! We can't afford that. # The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. Rev 22:17 May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 1 hour ago, GayatfootofCross said: This blog warmed my heart! We as a church has failed miserably of inviting and welcoming people who don't look like us and believe as we do. Here this Artist has the First Christians (even while bickering who is first in the kingdom of God ..so much for reflecting God's Heart) also... Buffoons/Jesters/Fools (do a word study on 'fools' alone!) Germans ( mostly protestants against the mother church! ..o dear) Arabs ( think of today's politics) Drunks (any addict -whatever drug/coping mechanism of choice looked upon as gutter rats and having no societal self control and sorely irresponsible ) Tax Collectors (treasonous cohorts of a Violent and Godless Oppressive Regime cause of Greed and Riches) Dwarfs ( physically imperfect at birth..parents punished for their sins??? ..by God) Dogs and Cats running freely about symbolizing unclean and dirty Household. All at the Table of JESUS! Welcomed! Welcomed! Welcomed! All marginalized and looked down upon by the Righteous Church! Some thru bad choices and some thru no fault of their own. All condemned. All these people you can use scriptures to kick to the curb. And still do And it never hurts to remember that it was my sins that placed Jesus on the cross, not any more nor less than the stupidity of the "holier than thou" hypocrites. Until I feel the pain of Jesus' suffering each time I remember my personal responsibility for it, I will also forget the righteousness He is willing to work out in my life as well as the mistake of seeing myself as so much better than "those sinners over there", the description of the last church as being primarily me first, I will have failed to discontinue the crucifixion of Christ. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see....Revelation 3 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame....Hebrews 6 God is Love! Jesus saves! Green Cochoa 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Femster Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Jesus accepts all who come to Him, He loves ALL of us. he came to save SINNERS. We must remember we are ALL sinners. Look at who God chose to lead Israel at times- a murderer(Moses), a drunkard, a man who married a prostitute. Just because peple are different to us does NOT mean we shouldnt accept them. Jesus came to THEM, even when they were too scared to come to him directly. The woman who bled, the tax collector in the tree,,,, so many.... If Jesus loved them and accepted them, WHO gave us the right to reject them? Judge Ye Not, lest Ye yourself be judged...... GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 26, 2016 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2016 Umm... you *have* read every other thread in this forum, right? Or is it only 'hate speech' (it was nothing of the sort) that you *disagree* with that has no place anywhere? Be the change you want to see. If you perceive a lack of civility, post more and more civilly. Tom Wetmore, LifeHiscost and GayatfootofCross 3 Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted March 26, 2016 Members Share Posted March 26, 2016 52 minutes ago, The Wanderer said: This simply is not true, is the first problem here. Quite the opposite happens in churches all over the world. Caustic statements like this lead to caustic relationships. You might want to think about that. And The Last Supper, according to the Bible, was not about who Jesus accepted, and who He didn't. It was a special service that He desired to have with His disciples. This kind of hate speech doesn't belong anywhere on the forum or in any church. Gay wrote nothing "hateful." It was his opinion, and reflects that of many people who feel that the church is not a welcoming place. To think otherwise is a bit of wishful thinking. This is not to say that many churches have very congenial and loving congregations. But good relationships, in church or not, requires friendliness on both sides. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 32 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: Gay wrote nothing "hateful." It was his opinion, and reflects that of many people who feel that the church is not a welcoming place. To think otherwise is a bit of wishful thinking. This is not to say that many churches have very congenial and loving congregations. But good relationships, in church or not, requires friendliness on both sides. and JESUS washed Judas' feet amazing! God help us ALL be like HIM! and thanku Pam for understanding my post jumping off that piece of ART/CHURCH HISTORY! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 33 minutes ago, David Geelan said: Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted April 5, 2016 Author Share Posted April 5, 2016 On 3/26/2016 at 8:25 PM, rudywoofs (Pam) said: Gay wrote nothing "hateful." It was his opinion, and reflects that of many people who feel that the church is not a welcoming place. To think otherwise is a bit of wishful thinking. This is not to say that many churches have very congenial and loving congregations. But good relationships, in church or not, requires friendliness on both sides. My church was loving as long as they thought I was straight. ( three things happened inside the same year)................... As a kid starting puberty and going to church for the very first time in my life at the exact time I found out I was gay was so traumatizing.. ..watching and listening very closely to what people said abut homosexuals/homosexuality. I recount my experiences growing up in Church and seeing myself numbered with the marginalized in even our Church History(refer to OP). And not only mine but countless others Iv'e me thru the years. I do not share this opinion alone. Thanks again for seeing this thread as intended. May the Joy of the LORD be your Strength! .................... now I am still understanding ..still trying to fully realize God loves Queers! Of whom I am chief! .......................... [ to correct OP ..i remembered the term dog was an old ancient church tradition for homosexuals ] Ive seen that reference in too many christian places thru the many years on the internet Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted April 5, 2016 Author Share Posted April 5, 2016 On 11/20/2015 at 0:11 PM, GayatfootofCross said: On 11/21/2015 at 1:44 PM, GayatfootofCross said: Dogs and Cats running freely about symbolizing unclean and dirty Household. All at the Table of JESUS! Welcomed! Welcomed! Welcomed! # The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. Rev 22:17 Well my thing about dogs was in the second post! oopsie - See more at: http://kenwytsma.com/#sthash.PnS0RDrc.dpuf Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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