Do you know where your beliefs and practices come from?

[Scuba]

You know not what you worship...John 4:22

The Easter or Ishtar symbolism of the Sunday resurrection of the spring fertility cult (Easter, the Anglo-Saxon form of Ishtar), is a pagan system of worship that first penetrated Christianity in the second century. The symbolism stems from the death of Tammuz (or Dumuzi) on Friday and his resurrection on Sunday. This mirrors the grain and new shoot symbolism of the corn harvest which occurred at this time of the year. The 40 days of Lent were picked as one day for each year of his life since he died at age 40. The rest of the traditions of Easter were "Christianized" into the story of the death and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah. https://en.wikibooks.org/…/Neglected_Comman…/Idolatry/Easter

Messiah did not died on Friday and rise on Sunday, Tammuz did.

How many pagan customs and practices do you need to follow before you are no longer following the LORD? Deuteronomy 12:29-32

Where do you stand on these things?

Sunday as the Lord's Day?
Christmas as the birth of Jesus on December 25th?
The Christmas tree?
Santa Claus?
Krampus?
40 Days of Lent?
Easter?
Easter bunnies?
Easter eggs?
Good Friday Crucifixion?
Resurrection Sunday?
Sunday sunrise service?
Easter ham?
The Christian fish logo?
Hot cross buns?
No meat on Fridays?
Co-eternal, Co-equal Trinity God?
Eternal burning torture of the wicked dead?
Heaven as the home of the righteous dead?
Immortal soul?

Revelation 18:1-5 I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

[CoAspen]

Perhaps we should just crawl into a cave and become hermits from the world. You seem too concerned about what others do. Who cares what holiday is observed by another persons/persons. Too much time is spent on which came first 'chicken or egg'. Get on with life and live.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Every day of the year has an association with a pagan god, holiday, or ritual.  What if your birthday fell on Samhain?  Should you not have a birthday cake with lit candles because celebrating with fire on Samhain can invoke demons?

The important thing in everyone's life is their *mindset*... 

If someone feels strongly that Christmas or Easter or any other day should not be celebrated, then they shouldn't do so.  But it isn't their duty to inflict their cognitive dissonance on others who have no such issues.

Don't give Satan more power than he has.  "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Tim 1:7

 

[JoeMo]

AMEN, Pam!  I may be wrong; but I think even EGW says that we should have Christmas decorations.  If people think holiday celebrations are "wrong", they should avoid them.  Even though I know there is no way Jesus was born on Dec. 25, I will still celebrate the holiday as an opportunity to be generous to others and be with family and friends (not to mention having a whole week off from work!).

Some people have a slave attitude in their faith, thinking that God is seeking their servitude and submission as a slave rather than a relationship between a Father and his kids.  One is a relationship of fear and judgement; while the other is a relationship of love and trust.

[Scuba]

I think it's more important to see what the LORD days about these things and not rely on feelings. 

Deuteronomy 12:29-32 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, [30] take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' [31] You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates.

[Ron Amnsn]

 

11 hours ago, Scuba said:

How many pagan customs and practices do you need to follow before you are no longer following the LORD?

Good question, Scuba.

Certainly, we don't need to stop brushing our teeth because "pagans" brush their teeth too.  However, if our forefathers brought parts of pagan worship into the Christianity so that we have inherited those practices as "normal", we would do well to tell God we are willing to remove any such elements from our lives, if He wants us to.  We can ask God how he wants His holy people to live.  Is anyone interested in being holy these days?

[Scuba]

1 hour ago, Ron Amnsn said:

 

Good question, Scuba.

Certainly, we don't need to stop brushing our teeth because "pagans" brush their teeth too.  However, if our forefathers brought parts of pagan worship into the Christianity so that we have inherited those practices as "normal", we would do well to tell God we are willing to remove any such elements from our lives, if He wants us to.  We can ask God how he wants His holy people to live.  Is anyone interested in being holy these days?

I think brushing our teeth is more a natural thing in caring for the temple of God than a pagan form of worship but I like your thought process.

[8thdaypriest]

Well then.  Why don't you go to church on Sunday with all the majority of folks, and forget that whole Sabbath thing, 'cause very few folks do "that" anyway.  Lighten up - as you say. 

Most folks know that Dec 25th is the "rebirth" of the sun, and celebrating the birth of our LORD on that day, is baptized sun-worship. 

I still say "Thanks, You too."  when someone says, "Merry Christmas" to me.  I don't "witness" to them about the pagan idolatry of Christmas.  But we don't buy a Christmas Tree either.  I think Jeremiah wrote something about worshiping evergreen trees, and baking cakes for "the Queen of Heaven". 

Besides, It's JESUS who should receive the "gifts" at Christmas, NOT everyone ELSE. 

[Kevin H]

On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Scuba said:

I think it's more important to see what the LORD days about these things and not rely on feelings.

Deuteronomy 12:29-32 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, [30] take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' [31] You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates.

But yet the Pagan days for the Pagans who lived in the land of Canaan (because it was based on the agricultural cycle) were taken over by the Bible.

Then there was a feast that was not in the Old Testament but started after the Old Testament was done being written. Jesus treated this new holyday just like he treated Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles, showing that Jesus is willing to bless us even if we take new days for celebration.

[Kevin H]

On Sunday, December 20, 2015 at 7:01 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

 

Most folks know that Dec 25th is the "rebirth" of the sun, and celebrating the birth of our LORD on that day, is baptized sun-worship.

I still say "Thanks, You too."  when someone says, "Merry Christmas" to me.  I don't "witness" to them about the pagan idolatry of Christmas.  But we don't buy a Christmas Tree either.  I think Jeremiah wrote something about worshiping evergreen trees, and baking cakes for "the Queen of Heaven".

Besides, It's JESUS who should receive the "gifts" at Christmas, NOT everyone ELSE.

We won't deal with you taking Jeremiah out of context and reading more into the text than Jeremiah had on his mind, and thus place yourself on dangerous ground for other Biblical misquotes.

But once again we have learned that the traditional origins of December 25 is not correct. We got it from Intertestamental Jewish tradition. And while there were different pagan days around this time period there is some evidence that the Pagan's moved their celebrations to December 25 because of Christians believing that it was the birth of Jesus. So we might have had it first.

[Scuba]

None of these pagan beliefs and practices will have any part of God's kingdom. Right now He is preparing a people to be kings an priests to rule and reign with Jesus Christ. I really have to wonder who's side people are on when I get attacked for speaking against pagan beliefs and practices in the house of God.

Ezekiel 8:14-16 So He brought me to the door of the north gate of the Lord’s house; and to my dismay, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz. Then He said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? Turn again, you will see greater abominations than these.” So He brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house; and there, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, and they were worshiping the sun toward the east.

Quote

The Easter or Ishtar symbolism of the Sunday resurrection of the spring fertility cult is a pagan system of worship that first penetrated Christianity in the second century. The symbolism stems from the death of Tammuz on Friday and his resurrection on Sunday. The rest of the traditions of Easter were "Christianized" into the story of the death and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah.

Even today the worship of Tammuz is alive and well in the house of God. Is not this still an abomination to God? Who's kingdom are you in when you defend the worship of Tammuz? Who are you fighting for when you speak against what I say? That spirit do you have that moves you to resist the very heart and will of God for His people?

Do you really want to know which kingdom you stand for? Watch this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VANW1HoPnKk

[JoeMo]

When I get to the Kingdom,  if Jesus says "We don't do Christmas up here", I'll be totally OK with that.  If he says "But we're still gonna do Hannakah", I'll think it's a great idea.  I think the "rules" in the Kingdom will be much more clear (probably different) once we get there; and I think they will be much less stringent and exacting than some make them seem here.  Plus, the Law will be written in our hearts rather than scattered throughout a book; so we will likely keep it unconsiously.  Once we make it to the Kingdom, every day will be better than Christmas!

To those of you who are celebrating Christmas - "Merry Christmas"!

To those of you who are NOT celebrating Christmas - "Merry Christmas"!

[Scuba]

You know Christmas is pagan just like Easter and Sunday worship. They all come from the same spirit and have their root in Babylon. Do you think God says,  "Babylon is fallen, come out of her my people or share in her sins" for nothing? Do not worship the LORD as the pagans worship their gods. This is what the LORD says. Do you reject the word of the LORD? 

[Gregory Matthews]

Pam got it right.

Also, the religious services given by Moses and God to Israel can be in part traced back to pagan Egyptan religious practices.  The Christian practice of baptism clearly has a non-Christian beginning.

The denomination that I represent teaches people to keep a day holy that is dedicated, in history, to the worship of a pagan God.

 

[Scuba]

Unless you have the Spirit of the LORD you can not see these things. People are defending the kingdom of Babylon not the Kingdom of God when they defend anything that has to do with the sun God of Babylon. There is a period after this statement, not a comma. 

[Ron Amnsn]

8 hours ago, Kevin H said:

But yet the Pagan days for the Pagans who lived in the land of Canaan (because it was based on the agricultural cycle) were taken over by the Bible.

Kevin,
It sounds like you're buying into the speculative Theory of Evolution which assumes that the first humans started with zero knowledge and slowly invented everything, including religion.  The Bible teaches that Noah knew God's ways. "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God." (Gen 6:9)  So all the people-groups descended from Noah would have still had fragments of knowledge about God's ways.  God's appointed times (moedim) are first mentioned at creation. (See Genesis 1:14, where moedim is poorly translated as "seasons".) 

Also, the "agricultural cycle" is part of God's covenant with the descendants of Noah, and is something that God is in control of. "While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease."  (Genesis 8:22)

So according to the Bible, God's people didn't "take over" the pagan days based on the agricultural cycle, but rather the pagans inherited from Noah a knowledge of the agricultural cycle along with knowledge that God had appointed times.

[Ron Amnsn]

9 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Then there was a feast that was not in the Old Testament but started after the Old Testament was done being written. Jesus treated this new holyday just like he treated Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles, showing that Jesus is willing to bless us even if we take new days for celebration.

Kevin, what evidence do you have that Jesus treated the Feast of Dedication "just like he treated Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles" ?  Personally, I believe Jesus did celebrate the Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah), so I have no issue at all with that.  But how would we know whether Jesus treated the man-made celebration with the same reverence as he treated the appointed times instructed by God (that would be Jesus himself, according to EGW) ?

John does tell us in chapter 2 that Jesus was consumed with zeal for the Temple (John 2:17)  Since the Feast of Dedication had been instituted by the Maccabees, who were also zealous for the Temple, it would make sense that Jesus would celebrate that day.

Jesus taught that not a stroke of the Torah (which included God's appointed times) would disappear, and that those who observe and teach the Torah would be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.  (Matt. 5)   We don't have any record that he taught the same about the man-made Feast of Dedication.  And we don't have any record that Jesus celebrated Purim, a man-made festival instituted in the book of Esther.

So it seems rather speculative to assert that Jesus treated man-made festivals "just like" he treated God's Feasts of Passover and Tabernacles.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Ron Amnsn

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Scuba said:

Unless you have the Spirit of the LORD you can not see these things. People are defending the kingdom of Babylon not the Kingdom of God when they defend anything that has to do with the sun God of Babylon. There is a period after this statement, not a comma.

Scuba, are you trying to exclude everyone from the Kingdom that doesn't believe like you?  That sounds like a very "exclusive" religion (rather than "inclusive").  I prefer to think that my God wants to include as many of His children as He can rather than kick them out of the family on a "technicality".

[Ron Amnsn]

46 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Scuba, are you trying to exclude everyone from the Kingdom that doesn't believe like you?  That sounds like a very "exclusive" religion (rather than "inclusive").  I prefer to think that my God wants to include as many of His children as He can rather than kick them out of the family on a "technicality".

How does your preferred belief compare to what Jesus taught about the narrow gate that leads to life and the broad gate that leads to destruction?

[Kevin H]

2 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Kevin,
It sounds like you're buying into the speculative Theory of Evolution which assumes that the first humans started with zero knowledge and slowly invented everything, including religion.  The Bible teaches that Noah knew God's ways. "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God." (Gen 6:9)  So all the people-groups descended from Noah would have still had fragments of knowledge about God's ways.  God's appointed times (moedim) are first mentioned at creation. (See Genesis 1:14, where moedim is poorly translated as "seasons".)

Also, the "agricultural cycle" is part of God's covenant with the descendants of Noah, and is something that God is in control of. "While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, And cold and heat, And summer and winter, And day and night Shall not cease."  (Genesis 8:22)

So according to the Bible, God's people didn't "take over" the pagan days based on the agricultural cycle, but rather the pagans inherited from Noah a knowledge of the agricultural cycle along with knowledge that God had appointed times.

Ron: Yes I believe that there were truths that came from Adam and Eve and through Noah to his decedents. And those teachings did effect what the Canaanites did. However for the specific holidays such as Passover and Yom Kippur etc. the "They much have gotten it from Noah" idea does not fit as it is too localized a practice for only a small piece of property. And of all the days of the year God did not need to choose the day when the folk in Jericho were eating unleavened bread.

[Kevin H]

2 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Kevin, what evidence do you have that Jesus treated the Feast of Dedication "just like he treated Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles" ?  Personally, I believe Jesus did celebrate the Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah), so I have no issue at all with that.  But how would we know whether Jesus treated the man-made celebration with the same reverence as he treated the appointed times instructed by God (that would be Jesus himself, according to EGW) ?

John does tell us in chapter 2 that Jesus was consumed with zeal for the Temple (John 2:17)  Since the Feast of Dedication had been instituted by the Maccabees, who were also zealous for the Temple, it would make sense that Jesus would celebrate that day.

Jesus taught that not a stroke of the Torah (which included God's appointed times) would disappear, and that those who observe and teach the Torah would be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.  (Matt. 5)   We don't have any record that he taught the same about the man-made Feast of Dedication.  And we don't have any record that Jesus celebrated Purim, a man-made festival instituted in the book of Esther.

So it seems rather speculative to assert that Jesus treated man-made festivals "just like" he treated God's Feasts of Passover and Tabernacles.

In the book of John there are 7 I AM sayings of Jesus. Although the order of events vary they all contain the same elements: A Temple Feast, Jesus saying something in public or private about an aspect of the feast, a problem happens which are related to the aspect of the feast day that Jesus talked about. And "I Am" saying about the situation and a sign dealing with it.

We have 3 dealing with 3 different Passovers. 3 dealing with the feast of Tabernacles, and one dealing with Hanukkah "I am the resurrection and the life"

[Scuba]

21 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Ron: Yes I believe that there were truths that came from Adam and Eve and through Noah to his decedents. And those teachings did effect what the Canaanites did. However for the specific holidays such as Passover and Yom Kippur etc. the "They much have gotten it from Noah" idea does not fit as it is too localized a practice for only a small piece of property. And of all the days of the year God did not need to choose the day when the folk in Jericho were eating unleavened bread.

How do you feel about Jesus dying on good Friday and rising on Easter Sunday? How do you feel about Sunday being the Lord's day? How do you feel about telling people that Jesus was born on December 25th? How do you feel about telling people that the early church gathered on the first day of the week rather than on the Sabbath? How about the immortality of the soul?  If you have no problem with these things then you are not seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness, but rather, you are deep in Babylonian worship which God is calling His people out of. 

[Tom Wetmore]

That is harsh and judgmental.  If someone is mistaken on some detail or terminology or date you are basically saying that the person is not a believer and that they are lost.  Who made you the judge of a person's heart?  

[Scuba]

Who here is talking about the heart? If someone is cheating on his wife can you say, with all certainty, that they are not following the LORD in the area of not  committing adultety? Either you're seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousnes or you're seeking the religion of Babylon. Some things are just obvious.

[Tom Wetmore]

While your all or nothing approach to obedience and understanding of what God expects is truly suspect all by itself, the point you seem to miss is that it is not your job to be judge.  You know, that judge not part that is also part of following God.  Let God make that call.  You just worry about what's in your own heart on the seeking God's kingdom and His righteousness.

And my comment was not made to get an argument.  It was intended as a gentle reminder that going on the attack like that can get you cross-wise with the rules in these forums.