Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Let's back up to get the complete context: 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 I guess, when looking at the context, the answer is obvious.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 What happened to verse 20? Quote 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. Why should our message as Christ's ambassadors be "be ye reconciled to God" if everybody already was reconciled to God? Shouldn't it be, "Hey, you! Yes, you! You were reconciled to God!" 8thdaypriest 1 Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: What happened to verse 20? Why should our message as Christ's ambassadors be "be ye reconciled to God" if everybody already was reconciled to God? Shouldn't it be, "Hey, you! Yes, you! You were reconciled to God!" Romans 5:9 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. When were we reconciled to God? Through the death of Christ. Why? Because our old life died in the humanity of Christ. It's a finished work. However, this isn't the subject of this thread and we are off subject. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to derail the topic. Here is is again: Quote Is 2 Corinthians 5:17's "new creation" speaking of the believer? Let's back up to get the complete context: 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on,we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, Robert said: Romans 5:9 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. When were we reconciled to God? Through the death of Christ. Why? Because our old life died in the humanity of Christ. It's a finished work. However, this isn't the subject of this thread and we are off subject. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to derail the topic. Here is is again: It's the same topic. Verse 20 is important to understand in regards to your question as to what the "new creation" is, as it is what Paul is driving towards. Your thinking is that it is not the transformation which occurs in the believer, being "born again" because of how you interpret the verse up to but not including verse 20. But verse 20 is a problem, because if our message as Christ's ambassadors to those who do not know Christ is "be reconciled to God", they obviously have NOT been reconciled to God. which means your whole framework for arguing that the "new creation" is not being born again falls apart. The "new creation IS being born again, just as the gospel of Jesus Christ IS the gospel of Paul, and when Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again, to become a new creation (this is all throughout John; see for example John 1:12,13), this is the same message Paul had in mind. Paul preached the gospel of Jesus Christ! Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 7 hours ago, Robert said: Let's back up to get the complete context: 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. verse 14 & 15: When Christ died, all men died "in Him". This truth liberates men and compels them to live for Christ. verse 16: In what way does it compel men to live for Christ? Because those who have accepted "the truth as it is in Christ" tend to view people not as they are in the flesh, but how they are "in Christ Jesus". verse 17: if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Does this refer to believer's life or his position "in Christ"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 What happened to verse 20? If your interpretation were correct, if Paul were thinking in the terms you are suggesting, why in the world would he say our message as Christ's ambassadors, Christ speaking thorough us, be "be reconciled to God"? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: What happened to verse 20? If your interpretation were correct, if Paul were thinking in the terms you are suggesting, why in the world would he say our message as Christ's ambassadors, Christ speaking thorough us, be "be reconciled to God"? We need to present the gospel. Why? There are many gospels, but only one real gospel. But again, the question is: Quote Is 2 Corinthians 5:17's "new creation" speaking of the believer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Verse 20 is a part of Paul's thought, where he was going towards. He said our message, as Christ speaking through is, to those who do not believe is "be reconciled to God." To be reconciled to God is to be a new creation. If you will consider verse 20, you can see the answer to your question. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: To be reconciled to God is to be a new creation. Does this refer to believer's life or his position "in Christ"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Do the following describe the same group of people: 1.In Christ. 2.Reconciled to God. 3.New creation. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. Maybe this will take some of the confusion away: http://www.jacksequeira.org/2phases.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Regarding verse 20, if what you are thinking were correct, wouldn't the message be "Accept your position in Christ" or "Accept that you have been reconciled" as opposed to "be reconciled to God"? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Regarding verse 20, if what you are thinking were correct, wouldn't the message be "Accept your position in Christ" or "Accept that you have been reconciled" as opposed to "be reconciled to God"? 'YOU IN CHRIST’ – Objective (imputed righteousness) We are reconciled in Christ! That is past tense, objective, historical event! 'CHRIST IN YOU’ – Subjective (imparted righteousness) But Christ isn't going to force this truth on the unbeliever if he/she is capable of making a decision for or against this truth. Hence the unbeliever needs to accept this truth by faith to make it effective in his/her life. Hence it is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, Robert said: 'YOU IN CHRIST’ – Objective (imputed righteousness) We are reconciled in Christ! That is past tense, objective, historical event! 'CHRIST IN YOU’ – Subjective (imparted righteousness) But Christ isn't going to force this truth on the unbeliever if he/she is capable of making a decision for or against this truth. Hence the unbeliever needs to accept this truth by faith to make it effective in his/her life. Hence it is subjective. Why would our message for unbelievers be "be reconciled to God" instead of "you are reconciled to God. Believe it!" Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said: Why would our message for unbelievers be "be reconciled to God" instead of "you are reconciled to God. Believe it!" I've already showed you in Romans chapter 5 that Christ's corporate death reconciled mankind to a Holy God. This is justification or saved by grace. However, mankind needs to accept this truth to "be reconciled to God". If he does not resist he will be drawn to God. If he does, he will harden his heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said: Do the following describe the same group of people: 1.In Christ. 2.Reconciled to God. 3.New creation. Yes, but on # 3 is this a] our position "in Christ" or b] what we are now, in ourselves, having received the atonement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Quote Me: Why would our message for unbelievers be "be reconciled to God" instead of "you are reconciled to God. Believe it!" Robert: I've already showed you in Romans chapter 5 that Christ's corporate death reconciled mankind to a Holy God. This is justification or saved by grace. However, mankind needs to accept this truth to "be reconciled to God". If he does not resist he will be drawn to God. If he does, he will harden his heart. You've shown your interpretation can't be right by not being able to answer my simple question. If what you are suggesting were correct, why wouldn't Paul have said our message is "You are reconciled to God. Believe it." The fact that our message is "be reconciled to God" show that they have not been reconciled to God. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Quote Me: Do the following describe the same group of people: 1.In Christ. 2.Reconciled to God. 3.New creation. Robert: Yes, but on # 3 is this a] our position "in Christ" or b] what we are now, in ourselves, having received the atonement? You're saying all three of the above are referring to the same group of people. What group of people is this? Is it believers, or all mankind? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Quote 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Let me rephrase the question: Are we a "new creation" in Christ (who is heaven) or are we actually "a new creation" in and of ourselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: The fact that our message is "be reconciled to God" show that they have not been reconciled to God. Then you are denying Romans 5:8-11 But God demonstrates His own love (agape) toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Verse 8 states that while we were still sinners, living for the flesh, Christ died for us. Thus because of His death we have now been justified by His blood (i.e., His life laid down in death). Paul goes on to say that when we were God's enemies we were reconciled to God through Christ's death. That's very plain. In verse 11 Paul is writing of believers who have received that reconciliation. From God's point of view we stand justified in Christ. We stand reconciled to God through Christ's death. From our point we must receive what has already taken place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 9 hours ago, Robert said: Let me rephrase the question: Are we a "new creation" in Christ (who is heaven) or are we actually "a new creation" in and of ourselves? What does the context state concerning our "new creation"? "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." What does Paul mean by "if"? Our corporate humanity was united to the Deity of Christ a little over 2000 years ago. That's when God the Father united our corporate life from Adam to the Divinity of Christ. So there's no "if" in this truth. The "if" then refers to one's realization of this truth. If one realizes the truth as it is "in Christ" then one realizes that "in Christ" he is a "new creation". It is therefore the believer who realizes that when Christ died, all men died in Him. That's because Christ's death as "the Son of Man" was a corporate death. Now is this "new creation" speaking of believers or what believers are "in Christ"? My answer is what believers are "in Christ". Why doesn't this apply to the believer's experience? Hasn't a change taken place in the believer? Sure. The believer's mind/heart is no longer in agreement with his fallen nature because of the indwelling of the Spirit of God in the inner mind, but that is all that has changed. Hence we still are mortal...we still retain our fallen nature...we still sin and we still fall short of God's agape love in our day to day lives. Now compare what I just said to the last part of 2 Cor 5:17 "Behold, all things have become new." Does this truth apply to the believer or our position "in Christ Jesus"? The answer is "our position in Christ Jesus"! Only "in Christ" have "all things become new". "In Christ" I am perfect and blameless before God's law through faith. See Col 1:22 "In Christ" all things all things have become new. In Him I am immortal. In Him I no longer have a fallen nature. In Him I perfectly reflect God's agape love. That's my position in Him. So in myself all things haven't become new. I still struggle with sin. I still have besetting sins. I am imperfect, even though in my mind "I delight in the law of God" according to the converted mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 28 minutes ago, Robert said: So in myself all things haven't become new. I still struggle with sin. I still have besetting sins. I am imperfect, even though in my mind "I delight in the law of God" according to the converted mind. Does Ellen White agree that we are imperfect and erring in our Christian experience? The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing.” “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. [AA 561.2] Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, “I am sinless; I am holy.” Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words. [AA 561.3] So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. [AA 559-561] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, Robert said: "We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone " Did you get it? Or acceptability is "in Christ alone"! Why? Because none of us are good enough for heaven and eternal life based on our Christian experience (our law keeping). Am I then implying that we should enjoy sin? That we should practice sin as a lifestyle? No! Even Paul, because taught the truth as it is "in Christ", said "Shall we continue in sin (practice sin) that grace may increase? God forbid! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? [Rom 6:1,2] When did we die to sin? "In Christ" So then we are count or consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I think Robert is saying we are "in Christ" 2000 years ago when He died on a cross. The common belief is that we are "in Christ" when we accept Him as Lord. Appealing to grammar will not help because God calls the things which will be as if they are. Pnatt is completely right to point to verse 20 which tells us that we become "in Christ" when we accept Him and are reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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