Is 2 Corinthians 5:17's "new creation" speaking of the believer?

[Robert]

 The phrase in Christ (the central theme of Paul’s theology) is applied objectively as well as subjectively in the New Testament. But it must be remembered, that the subjective experience is always based on the objective facts of the gospel; that which was realized in the holy history of Christ [1 Cor. 3:11].

The fundamental truth of the in Christ motif is that God united our corporate humanity, that needed redeeming, to Christ’s divinity at the incarnation (thus qualifying Him to be the second Adam), and then re-wrote our history in His Son’s life, death, and resurrection. This gave mankind a new status in which we stand legally justified, i.e., reconciled to God and accepted in the Beloved [1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:3-6].

By faith this truth of legal justification is made effective; hence, it is referred to as justification by faith (which is in complete opposition to justification by works, see Rom. 9:30-33).

This results in the new birth experience (Christ in you), which in turn is manifested by holy living (i.e., sanctification); the reproduction of Christ’s righteous life in us, the fruits of justification by faith [Jn. 15:1-5].

Jack Sequeira

PS:  And Jack got this truth from Paul, as did I....

[Robert]

Jesus Christ at the Incarnation   Two Distinct, Opposite Natures United in One Person

In order for Christ to legally qualify to be our substitute and representative, His divinity had to be united to our corporate fallen humanity that needed redeeming. It is in the incarnation that these two distinct opposite natures were united together in one person and Christ became the second Adam. This is the in Christ motif, the central theme of Paul’s theology [1 Corinthians 1:30].

The Paradox  

AS GOD HE WAS:		AS MAN HE WAS MADE:
Son of God   [Lk.1:35] Self-Existing   [Jn. 1:4] Spirit   [Jn. 4:24] Equal with God   [Phil. 2:6] Sinless   [2 Cor. 5:21] Independent   [Jn. 10:18] Immortal   [1 Tim. 1:17] Lawgiver   [Ja. 4:12]		Son of Man   [Lk. 19:10] Of a Woman   [Gal. 4:4] Flesh   [Jn. 1:14] A Slave of God   [Phil. 2:7] Sin   [2 Cor. 5:21] Dependent   [Jn. 5:19,30] Mortal   [Heb. 2:14,15] Under Law   [Gal. 4:4]

 

 

Jesus Christ at the Resurrection   The Two Natures Became One, Sharing the Same Divine Life

On the cross, our corporate condemned life died eternally in Christ [the wages of sin, see 2 Corinthians 5:14]. In the resurrection, God gave the human race the eternal life of His Son [1 John 5:11]. All that we are, as a result of the Fall, Christ was made at the incarnation; that through His life, death, and resurrection all that He is we were made in Him [2 Corinthians 5:17]. This constitutes the good news of the gospel.

BY NATURE WE ARE:

1. Spiritually dead, but in Christ were made spiritually alive   [Eph. 2:5]
2. Sinners, but in Christ were made righteous   [2 Cor. 5:21]
3. Sinful, but in Christ were made holy and blameless   [Eph. 1:4]
4. Condemned, but in Christ were justified   [Rom. 5:18]
5. Sons of man, but in Christ were made sons of God   [1 Jn. 3:1]
6. Hell bound, but in Christ were made to sit in heavenly places   [Eph. 2:6]
7. Mortal, but in Christ were made immortal   [2 Tim. 1:8-10]
8. Poor, but in Christ were made rich   [2 Cor. 8:9]
9. Lower than the angels, but in Christ were made joint heirs   [Rom.8:17; Heb.2:5-12]

Jack S.

[pnattmbtc]

25 minutes ago, Robert said:

There's no "if", unless you discount numerous Pauline statements such as Col 1:22 & Romans 5:8-10.

God's work in Christ is a finished work.  In fact that's why the NT believer should rest the Sabbath because the 7th-day points to a finished and perfect redemption accomplished "in Christ". 

Mankind has already been reconciled to God in Christ, but some will reject this truth. Those who reject the gospel and harden their hearts remain under law.

You haven't answered the question.  Why would our message be "be reconciled to God" if the people we are addressing were already reconciled to God? (I'm not using "if" as contrary-to-fact, but like "given that").

[pnattmbtc]

25 minutes ago, Robert said:

 The phrase in Christ (the central theme of Paul’s theology) is applied objectively as well as subjectively in the New Testament. But it must be remembered, that the subjective experience is always based on the objective facts of the gospel; that which was realized in the holy history of Christ [1 Cor. 3:11].

The fundamental truth of the in Christ motif is that God united our corporate humanity, that needed redeeming, to Christ’s divinity at the incarnation (thus qualifying Him to be the second Adam), and then re-wrote our history in His Son’s life, death, and resurrection. This gave mankind a new status in which we stand legally justified, i.e., reconciled to God and accepted in the Beloved [1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:3-6].

By faith this truth of legal justification is made effective; hence, it is referred to as justification by faith (which is in complete opposition to justification by works, see Rom. 9:30-33).

This results in the new birth experience (Christ in you), which in turn is manifested by holy living (i.e., sanctification); the reproduction of Christ’s righteous life in us, the fruits of justification by faith [Jn. 15:1-5].

Jack Sequeira

PS:  And Jack got this truth from Paul, as did I....

Jack is more precise than you are.  However, you should know for yourself what you believe, and be able to explain it, and answer simple questions people ask.

The OP started out with your citing a text from Scripture from Paul, but leaving out the climax, verse 20.  Why would you do this?  Apparently because it doesn't fit with your understanding of what Paul should have said.  But it fit with *Paul's* understanding.  He did say our message to unbelievers is "be reconciled to God".  Why should this be our message?

[pnattmbtc]

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The phrase in Christ (the central theme of Paul’s theology) is applied objectively as well as subjectively in the New Testament. But it must be remembered, that the subjective experience is always based on the objective facts of the gospel.

This statement is true, and important to be understood.  Given there is such a thing as objective truth, what is being said here would have to be the case.  However, *what* the objective truth is, and why what Jesus did was necessary has been debated for centuries.

As Seventh-day Adventists, the Great Controversy theme has been an integral part of our history.  I believe this them, The Great Controversy, explains the what and the why better than any other paradigm.

[Robert]

46 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

The OP started out with your citing a text from Scripture from Paul, but leaving out the climax, verse 20. 

That's because our "new creation" has nothing directly to do with verse 20.  What Christ has done includes the whole human race.  Christ has universally saved the fallen human race in Himself, but many will reject His finished work.  

[Robert]

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The Great Controversy, explains the what and the why better than any other paradigm.

Well, you go with Ellen White, I'll go with what she said was the measuring stick of truth.

From her own statements we may conclude that Ellen G. White believed—

1. That the entire Bible is the Inspired Word of God.

2. That men should “cling” to their Bibles.

3. That men should believe and obey the Bible and “not one” of them would be lost.

4. That in the Bible is found “comfort, guidance, counsel, and the plan of salvation as clear as a sunbeam.”

5. That the Bible is fitted for the needs of all—rich and poor, learned and illiterate, “all ages and all classes.”

6. That the “truth of God is found in His Word.”

7. That no one need “seek elsewhere for present truth.”

8. That the Bible contains all that a man needs for salvation.

9. That the Bible sets forth the pattern for Christian living.

10. That the Testimonies were given only because man has neglected his Bible, and that the Testimonies will direct him back to his Bible. They are not given as “an addition to the word of God,” or to take the place of that Word of God. 

Ref: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/bhp/bhpc10.html

[pnattmbtc]

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Me:The OP started out with your citing a text from Scripture from Paul, but leaving out the climax, verse 20. 

Robert:That's because our "new creation" has nothing directly to do with verse 20.  

 

Sure it does.  I explained this to you a long time ago, in one of the first posts.

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Robert:What Christ has done includes the whole human race.  Christ has universally saved the fallen human race in Himself, but many will reject His finished work.

  Here's what Paul wrote:

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17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:The old has gone, the new is here!18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:17-20)

Note the "therefore" in vs. 20.  Paul, in the verses you cited in the OP was leading up to something, which is in verse 20, which you left out, but shouldn't have.  It can hardly be the case that verse 20 can be left out of the question, given these verses were preliminary to Paul's appeal in verse 20.

What is the appeal in verse 20?  It is, "be reconciled to God"?

Now if what you were suggesting were accurate, what Paul should have said was, "Accept the fact that you have been reconciled!"  But he didn't write that.

What did he write what he actually did, instead of what he should have written, if what you are suggesting were true?

[pnattmbtc]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Me: The Great Controversy, explains the what and the why better than any other paradigm.

Robert: Well, you go with Ellen White, I'll go with what she said was the measuring stick of truth.

 

You don't see the Great Controversy theme in Scripture?

[Robert]

5 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

What is the appeal in verse 20?  It is, "be reconciled to God"?

In other words accept what God has already done in Christ Jesus. If not, then you have to throw out (and you do) many universal statements made by Paul concerning our reconciliation "in Christ Jesus".

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Now if what you were suggesting were accurate, what Paul should have said was, "Accept the fact that you have been reconciled!"  But he didn't write that.

Here's what your theology is doing:  It's making the cross completely powerless and impotent.  Christ's finished work is meaningless until man, in his glory, makes "faith" his Savior. But "faith" isn't the Savior, Christ is the Savior of all men.

What you present is "another gospel".

[pnattmbtc]

5 minutes ago, Robert said:

In other words accept what God has already done in Christ Jesus. If not, then you have to throw out (and you do) many universal statements made by Paul concerning our reconciliation "in Christ Jesus".

You don't have to throw them out, just understand what Paul's intent was.  Paul's intent should match what he ways, correct?

Isn't it obvious that if Paul says our message to unbelievers is "be reconciled to God", that this means they should become right with God?  What else could it mean?

To "reconcile" means to bring to parties together which have been at odds with one another.  God is not at odds with us, and His actions in and through Christ demonstrate this.  On this basis, God implores us, through Christ, to be reconciled to Him.  This is crystal clear.  I think anyone reading what Paul wrote could understand this.

[pnattmbtc]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

Here's what your theology is doing:  It's making the cross completely powerless and impotent.  Christ's finished work is meaningless until man, in his glory, makes "faith" his Savior. But "faith" isn't the Savior, Christ is the Savior of all men.

What you present is "another gospel".

Jesus Christ said:

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¹⁴ And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

¹⁵ That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

This was His theology of the cross.  Was He making the cross completely powerless and impotent?  Was He presenting another gospel?

[Robert]

The finished work of Christ:

All men died in Christ and therefore have been justified unto life: 

Romans 5:10

Romans 5:18

Romans 6:6

Romans 7:4

2 Cor 5:14

Col 1:21,22

At the resurrection God united Christ's Divinity to mankind's "new creation".  He took this "new creation" to heaven itself to present us blameless before the Father and His holy law.

Col 1:13,14

Eph 2:5,6

Heb 10:19,20

All this has been accomplished in Christ's holy history.  Therefore fallen man has been reconciled to God in Christ Jesus.

What remains is for fallen man to accept this reconciliation.  We call this justification by faith.  When we believe we are accepting something that has already taken place.  Hence it is a finished work.....

 

 

 

[Wingnut]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

 Hence it is a finished work.....

 

 

 

It is not a finished work, because God still refers to man as enemies (Mark 12:36), and men who don't know God, consider Him an enemy.

Which is the exact opposite of reconciliation.  We are back to square one.

[pnattmbtc]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

The finished work of Christ:

All men died in Christ and therefore have been justified unto life: 

Romans 5:10

Romans 5:18

Romans 6:6

Romans 7:4

2 Cor 5:14

Col 1:21,22

At the resurrection God united Christ's Divinity to mankind's "new creation".  He took this "new creation" to heaven itself to present us blameless before the Father and His holy law.

Col 1:13,14

Eph 2:5,6

Heb 10:19,20

All this has been accomplished in Christ's holy history.  Therefore fallen man has been reconciled to God in Christ Jesus.

What remains is for fallen man to accept this reconciliation.  We call this justification by faith.  When we believe we are accepting something that has already taken place.  Hence it is a finished work.....

 

 

 

You're being selective in how your thinking about things, and selecting texts.  You've got a paradigm which makes the words of Christ, to use your language, "completely powerless and impotent."  Yet Christ Himself said, "My words are spirit and they are life."  He also said:

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Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock. Matt. 7:24

And He also said:

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39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (John 5:39,40)

 

What Jesus said here is completely in harmony with the Gospel that Paul preached.

[Robert]

35 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Isn't it obvious that if Paul says our message to unbelievers is "be reconciled to God", that this means they should become right with God?  What else could it mean?

Back to the immediate context:

2 Cor 5:14  For the love of Christ controls us (believers), having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died

That's a universal statement.  When Christ our corporate man died, all died.  

What happened when Christ died?  Romans 5:10 is what happened: "we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son"

Verse 16 Therefore from now on we (believers) recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh (during His birth, life and death), yet now we know Him in this way no longer (i.e., at the resurrection). 

Why would Paul say "we recognize no one (both believers and unbelievers) according to the flesh?

Because we are to see them as they are "in Christ", not as they are in the flesh.  

Hence we need to tell the unbeliever you have already been reconciled in Christ - please accept this truth and be reconciled to God because He will not force this truth on you and go against your free will.

[Robert]

8 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

It is not a finished work...

Then you are lost and under law....Or, you must earn your way into heaven.

 Is this what you are presenting, salvation by works?  Do you wish to glory in your law performance?  If so, good luck...you'll need it.

[pnattmbtc]

9 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

 

[Robert]

12 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

You've got a paradigm ...

You really overuse this word, paradigm.  Really! 

[pnattmbtc]

33 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Me:Isn't it obvious that if Paul says our message to unbelievers is "be reconciled to God", that this means they should become right with God?  What else could it mean?

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Robert: Back to the immediate context:

You say, "back to the immediate context", as if the conclusion to Paul's argument isn't the immediate context!  And then you go away from the immediate context to somewhere else to quote a verse,which is completely NOT not only the immediate context, but not the context in any way.  Here's the context:

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14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

Why would Paul say our message, as ambassadors for Christ, is "be ye reconciled to God"?  This is really easy to understand.  It's because those to whom we are speaking have not been reconciled to God.

Here's the Greek:

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ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ οὖν πρεσβεύομεν ὡς τοῦ θεοῦ παρακαλοῦντος δι’ ἡμῶν· δεόμεθα ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ, καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ.

The salient phrase is this: καταλλάγητε τῷ θεῷ

This speaks of the word καταλλάγητε

http://biblehub.com/greek/2644.htm

This is in the imperative mood, meaning it's in command form, something they recipients need to do.  What do they need to do?  They need to be reconciled to God.  This is only possible if they are not already reconciled to God.

[pnattmbtc]

5 minutes ago, Robert said:

You really overuse this word, paradigm.  Really! 

How about "belief bubble"?  You have a belief bubble which is limited, keeping out the words of Christ, which He said were "spirit and life".

What saves us is Jesus Christ the Person, not a cognitive theory.

[Robert]

1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said:

Why would Paul say our message, as ambassadors for Christ, is "be ye reconciled to God"?  This is really easy to understand

Yes, if you ignore all of Paul's other statements, it's easy to "bend" things towards your theology.  

[Robert]

9 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

What saves us is Jesus Christ the Person, not a cognitive theory.

1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Accepting Christ is accepting a finished work.  We were reconciled to God when were His enemies, not when we exercise faith. 

You aren't presenting the gospel.  You aren't presenting unconditional, good news to sinners.  You are presenting conditional good news: If you do this and that God will put you into Christ....That's what your presenting and it isn't the gospel.

 Christ has saved the fallen human race in Himself.

 Now you can reject that.  You can say, don't I get credit?  Don't  I get some glory?

 Is this what you want?  It sounds like it.