pnattmbtc Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Quote Me: Why would Paul say our message, as ambassadors for Christ, is "be ye reconciled to God"? This is really easy to understand Robert: Yes, if you ignore all of Paul's other statements, it's easy to "bend" things towards your theology. It's find to consider Paul's other statements too, but certainly we shouldn't ignore the statement we're actually looking at, right? Surely you can see that doing the following can't be right: 1.In considering the text 2 Cor. 5:14-20, where the conclusion is verse 20, we ignore vs. 20. 2.We say we are going "back to the immediate context" by ignoreing verse 20, and jumping to another book. 3.Then we imply someone else, who is not jumping around, but staying in the immediate context, of leaving the immediate context. 4.And we continue to ignore the immediate context but not considering verse 20, the conclusion. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 13 minutes ago, Robert said: 1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Accepting Christ is accepting a finished work. We were reconciled to God when were His enemies, not when we exercise faith. You aren't presenting the gospel. You aren't presenting unconditional, good news to sinners. You are presenting conditional good news: If you do this and that God will put you into Christ....That's what your presenting and it isn't the gospel. Christ has saved the fallen human race in Himself. Now you can reject that. You can say, don't I get credit? Don't I get some glory? Is this what you want? It sounds like it. Robert, what does verse 20 mean? You keep dodging the question because it doesn't fit your view. And the reason it doesn't fit your view is because your view is wrong. It's not completely wrong, but wrong in a specific way, which has to do with verse 20. You cannot address verse 20 because Paul could not have written it if Paul believed himself how you believe about Paul. But your view about Paul are not correct, which can be seen in the following ways: 1.Verse 20 says "be reconciled to God", which Paul could not have said had he believed the unbelievers were already reconciled to God. 2.Historically it doesn't work because: a.This wasn't the view of Paul or his hearers (by this I mean the corporate/forensic ideas you are presenting, most particularly the forensic one. nobody at this point in history had the paradigm you are espousing. b.The early Christian writers did not have this view of the Gospel, by which I mean up to the 16th century. c.It doesn't jibe with Seventh-day Adventism either. Not just Ellen White, but neither A. T. Jones nor E. J. Waggoner, who were said by Ellen White on many occasions to have been especially sent by God to preach justification by faith. Regarding Christ being the savior of the world, this part is correct, as John brings out, using this very language. But why is Jesus Christ the savior of the world? Is it forensic? To answer this question, see what John wrote. If you can perceive that the Gospel presented by John is the same as by Paul, it makes things easier. The Gospel comes from God. The same Holy Spirit that inspired Paul inspired John. They didn't preach different gospels. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 49 minutes ago, Robert said: Then you are lost and under law....Or, you must earn your way into heaven. Is this what you are presenting, salvation by works? Do you wish to glory in your law performance? If so, good luck...you'll need it. If you call belief a work, then yes. You believe the "New Testament" is like a will where God leaves everything to us, including eternal life, as a Father would bequeath it to his heirs. I believe the "New Testament" is a New Covenant where BOTH parties have to meet certain expectations. But you even contradict your own paradigm by saying we can underperform and lose salvation. 8thdaypriest 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 Quote Listen between 51:43 to 1:02:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." Rom 5:18 NASB Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology. Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross. For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality. Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers This conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation. Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4). Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4). It is here where I disagree with the teachings of the Biblical Research Institute (BRI) of the GC, as well as some of the Independent Ministries. I believe that the true everlasting gospel, which God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism. Rather, it is the incredible good news that on the cross the entire human race was actually or objectively redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God by the death of His Son (John 3:17; 17:4; 19:30; Romans 5:5-10,18; Ephesians 2:5, 6, 8, 9; 2 Corinthians 5:19). Jack Sequeira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 So how do you explain that humans can lose out on salvation by underperforming. Is that not acknowledging that our works play a part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, Wingnut said: So how do you explain that humans can lose out on salvation by underperforming. Is that not acknowledging that our works play a part? You never obtain eternal life (heaven) by the works of the law because you are never good enough. Only "in Christ" are you acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, Robert said: You never obtain eternal life (heaven) by the works of the law because you are never good enough. Only "in Christ" are you acceptable. So how do you explain that humans can lose out on salvation by underperforming. Is that not acknowledging that our works play a part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said: It doesn't jibe with Seventh-day Adventism either. Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology. ...The Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross. For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality. Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers This conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 1 minute ago, Wingnut said: Is that not acknowledging that our works play a part? Rom 4:3 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath.... Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, Robert said: Rom 4:3 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath.... Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. We know that eternal life is a gift of God, not earned. But you still are ignoring the question "So how do you explain that humans can lose out on salvation by underperforming. Is that not acknowledging that our works play a part?" If a person loses faith, turns his back on God, loses eternal life, then his works do play a part in his salvation, just as his initial faith does in receiving salvation. We have managed to reconcile this in our paradigm. But you don't seem to be able to. Its simple really. We do play a role. See how easy that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Here is another scripture saying we have to do something about our own salvation. Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 So, although you cannot earn salvation, you can do things which make it more likely that you will get salvation. It's like you cannot earn a Christmas present, but if you are naughty, Santa might not bring you one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 6 hours ago, Wingnut said: We know that eternal life is a gift of God, not earned..... It's a finished gift.... Quote humans can lose out on salvation by underperforming. Oh, so the law is some how dumb downed so that Christ can help believers make the grade by using the bell-curve? It sounds like you would like some credit, some glory for your performance? Well, don't feel too bad, so did the Judaizers. Of course Paul told them the same thing I'm going to tell you: Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law (your law performance); you have fallen from grace. Quote If a person loses faith, turns his back on God, loses eternal life, then his works do play a part in his salvation.... No, he is rejecting Christ's finished work. This is what is meas to apostatize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 7 hours ago, Wingnut said: work out your own salvation .... This thread is dealing with the gospel, i.e., the holy history of Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection. Please do not turn it into a works thread. Keep to the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, Robert said: This thread is dealing with the gospel, i.e., the holy history of Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection. Please do not turn it into a works thread. Keep to the subject. If I were to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, would that fall into the category of... "... rejecting Christ's finished work. This is what is meas to apostatize. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, Wingnut said: If I were to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, would that fall into the category of... "... rejecting Christ's finished work. This is what is meas to apostatize. " To work out one's salvation is to keep your faith in Christ firmly until the end. We are once saved always saved if we keep the faith. Phil 1:22 He (Christ) has now reconciled you (by His cross) in His fleshly body through death, in order that He might present you before Him (God & His Law) holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 9 minutes ago, Robert said: To work out one's salvation is to keep your faith in Christ firmly until the end. We are once saved always saved if we keep the faith. You do know that "...faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17 So you would have no problem with me working out my own salvation with fear and trembling, while keeping the faith with a works based faith, to prove that my faith is not a dead faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 3 hours ago, Wingnut said: You do know that "...faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17 So you would have no problem with me working out my own salvation with fear and trembling, while keeping the faith with a works based faith, to prove that my faith is not a dead faith? I know that you are endeavoring to hijack this thread on the gospel to the subject of works. If you wish to start another thread on James 2:17 I'll be happy to respond.it, but not here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 19 hours ago, Robert said: "For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:13,14 NASB) Eph 2:6 "He (God) raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" Again, who is the "us" that was raised up with Christ and taken to heaven? There's only one possible answer: Our "new creation" in Christ Jesus.... The above is the subject. Like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 17 minutes ago, Robert said: I know that you are endeavoring to hijack this thread on the gospel to the subject of works. If you wish to start another thread on James 2:17 I'll be happy to respond.it, but not here. Does anyone believe the following is NOT part of the Gospel? "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, while keeping the faith with a works based faith, to prove that your faith is not a dead faith?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 5 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Does anyone believe the following is NOT part of the Gospel? "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, while keeping the faith with a works based faith, to prove that your faith is not a dead faith?" You are now being rude. I asked you to start your own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 May I remind everyone that the gospel is not what the Holy Spirit does in you. That's sanctification, the fruit of receiving the gospel by faith. The gospel is therefore what Christ did in His birth, life, death and resurrection, period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we (i.e., Roman believers) have received Rom 1:1-4 is the gospel Rom 5 is where the Roman believers received the gospel. That is justification by faith or the gospel received by faith. And of course sanctificaiton follows that, but both justification & sanctification by faith are not the gospel itself. The gospel therefore is the truth concerning Jesus as both the son of God and the Son of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, Robert said: The gospel therefore is the truth concerning Jesus as both the son of God and the Son of man. The Gospel is the Gospel of the kingdom (Matt 4:23), of Jesus Christ (Mark 1:1), of grace (Acts 20:24), of God (Rom 1:1), of peace (Rom 10:15), of your salvation (Eph 1:13). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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