Don't Hate...

[Robert]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Sin is deeper than just the overt act. It involves the thoughts and desires, as well.

Sin is anything outside agape.  According to the Paul "all have sinned and fall short of" God's agape love.  So in that respect no one is measuring up. We must be careful not to enter into perfectionism. 

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained." AA 560, 561

[Green Cochoa]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

Sin is anything outside agape.  According to the Paul "all have sinned and fall short of" God's agape love.  So in that respect no one is measuring up. We must be careful not to enter into perfectionism. 

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained." AA 560, 561

Robert,

My Bible does not teach such contradictory heresy as you just quoted.  Use a good Bible, like the KJV, and you will not find any requirement to sin anywhere in all its pages.  In fact, you will find "do not err," "be ye therefore perfect," and similar commands in which we are enjoined to "keep [His] commandments."  Ellen White tells us that "all His biddings are enablings." {COL 333.1}  This means no one has to sin.  Your text to say that "all…fall short" is simply incorrect.  Mrs. White noted that "there are Enochs in this our day." {COL 332.1}   The KJV states it properly, putting this in the past.  There is a world of difference between "[have] come short" and "fall".

[Robert]

[Tom Wetmore]

20 hours ago, Kevin(wrx) said:

You seem to think identity by sexuality trumps identity as a Christian. Identity as a Christian nullifys sexual orientation. I know many who identify themselves by their heterosexuality and know they are definitely reprobate. The same is true for the homosexual. 

There is nothing true in what you have posted. The first sentence is false because nowhere does David say or imply that. You are just imposing your own misperception and misunderstanding on him.  The second sentence is also false, ridiculously so in fact. Sexual orientation can exhibit as same gender orientation, opposite gender orientation or bisexual orientation to name the basic three.  Being a Christian does not nullify that you are heterosexual. Being a heterosexual does not mean that one is actively engage in any sexual behavior or in a heterosexual  relationship, good bad or indifferent.  OK, technically I'll give you the next one since you may well know many self identified heterosexuals that are reprobates.  But not all heterosexuals are as I thin you are implying. And neither are many self identified homosexuals. And that makes your last two sentences also false taken together.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

29 minutes ago, Kevin(wrx) said:

Tom, is your response an official response by the GC or is it of your own opinion? Either way the response was pretty horrid and can easily be ripped apart but why bother.

digging the hole ever deeper.... 

[Stan]

Kevin, go play somewhere else.

[Robert]

14 hours ago, jackson said:

To maintain justification and eventual salvation, you must  exhibit  a faith that works and perseveres to the end, for obedience is the fruit of faith, not of salvation 

You call this what you desire, but this is nothing less than salvation by works.

[Green Cochoa]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

You call this what you desire, but this is nothing less than salvation by works.

Many Adventists, perhaps, don't realize that we are saved by works.  

[Robert]

9 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Many Adventists, perhaps, don't realize that we are saved by works.  

Perhaps you should start another topic?

Rom 3:20... by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. 22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all and upon all who believe, for there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His goodness), 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...

[Gail]

45 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

And yes, most of it is OFF topic. But then, what is the topic?

Good question!

[aka]

                            

All conflicts here in this topic thread are everso familiar.

We veteran members remember well those hurtful postings going on in the not too far past. Then came the warning (threat?) from the Conference that Club will have to closed down if the content didn't get cleaned up and a more contolled atmosphere take place.

To me it seems a better place from days gone by but still intolerance of other-thinkers does cause friction, I see

[Bravus]

If anyone can demonstrate any words of mine that in any way resemble 'hatred and vitriol' I'll be very happy to withdraw them and apologise.

I kinda doubt they will be able to, though: I have worked very hard at posting calmly, reasonably and rationally.

[Green Cochoa]

On March 16, 2016 at 10:35 AM, David Geelan said:

Maybe it's because they are one of the most-bullied groups in our society?

Bit rich the bullies pondering why anti-bullying programs are needed.

On March 16, 2016 at 11:25 AM, David Geelan said:

You're just piling on to the most vulnerable people, and as such I have no hesitation in describing that behaviour as bullying. 

On April 12, 2016 at 11:26 AM, David Geelan said:

I've been clear, you've been willfully obtuse, I'll be leaving.

 

[aka]

 On Tuesday, April 12, 2016 at 6:26 AM, David Geelan said:

" I'll be leaving."

                           

Sweetie, were your words a statement of truth? or a threat? or a promise?

[aka]

[Bravus]

Calmly calling bullying by its right name is not what *I* would call 'vitriolic', but perhaps it's a subjective judgement.

I did leave the discussion with Kevin. I didn't mean I'd be leaving this forum I've been posting on for about 12 years... sorry to disappoint if that's how you read that.

[Robert]

4 hours ago, jackson said:

The Christian, then, is not under the law as a method of justification but is under the law as a standard for Christian conduct to be judged worthy for salvation. 

This is a contradiction.  

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

29 minutes ago, Robert said:

This is a contradiction.  

No one will be saved without works, Robert.  If works were not necessary, nor involved at all in the process, why would there be 1) books of record of them in Heaven (Eze. 29:16; Mal. 3:16), 2) a judgment in which we are weighed in balances (Dan. 5:27; Rev. 6:5), and 3) rewards according to our works (Rev. 22:12)?

Quote

 Our good works alone will not save any of us, but we cannot be saved without good works. And after we have done all that we can do, in the name and strength of Jesus we are to say: "We are unprofitable servants." We are not to think that we have made great sacrifices and that we should receive great reward for our feeble services.  {4T 228.2}  

. . . You say, "I have heard that we are not saved for our good works." No, but we will not be saved without them. You cannot depend upon your good works for salvation. We must have a living dependence upon a living God. And when there is a living connection with a living God, Christ abides in the heart by living faith, and the human agent works after Christ's life. He is going to change our life and character that Christ reveals. And if trials come to us we will not manifest a rebellious spirit. The opportunities will present themselves to every one of us, because we see oppression and unkindness, and because we see burdens that would be thrown upon us, and let self come in and exhibit itself. . . . {5MR 36.3} 

Jesus' gift saves us, but it is our love and obedience to Him that makes us eligible to receive the gift.  Works of obedience done of a pure desire to love and obey God are what put the "wedding garment" upon us that is required to attend that banquet in Heaven.  As Jesus' parable indicates, HE doesn't put that garment on each guest--the guest must do this for himself.  God does His part and we do ours.  Without BOTH we cannot be saved.

[Robert]

56 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

No one will be saved without works, Robert.  If works were not necessary, nor involved at all in the process, why would there be 1) books of record of them in Heaven (Eze. 29:16; Mal. 3:16), 2) a judgment in which we are weighed in balances (Dan. 5:27; Rev. 6:5), and 3) rewards according to our works (Rev. 22:12)?

There's a judgment, for sure.  In the judgment Christ will review our works, but not as a means of salvation.  There are two type of works:

1]  Works of the law.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22,23)

Works of iniquity are works done for a "fair show".  They are works done "to be seen of man".  They are works done so one can boast.  They are works done in order to stand just before the law in return for salvation.  These works prove the so called believer isn't resting in the finished work of Christ, but in his own self-righteous merit instead of Christ imputed righteousness.

That's why Paul warns:   "You have been cutoff from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4

2]  Works of faith, not work of the law.  Take example James 2:24,25

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Now these works of faith are not meritorious, rather they prove one's faith is in Christ and gives Him the legal right to present such a believer perfect and blameless in Himself (see Col 1:22)

Verse 25 "similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another way?"

Note, James does not say "Rahab the former prostitute".  The text says "Rahab the prostitute".  Rahab's work of faith was in saving the Israeli spies.  She put her life on the line.  That's works, but not works of the law.  That's a work of faith.  Under law Rahab would have been guilty of adultery and lying.  Under law she wouldn't have been justified; she would have been condemned.

 

[GayatfootofCross]

When you see Christians express and share love  and affirm God's Great Love for the LGBTIQQAAP Communitty As they are and Where they stand

It is a sure Sign that they Themselves Know God's Great Love As they Are and Where they stand also.

You cannot share God's Great love and the GOSPEL with out it.

 

a facebook post

more or less

and the running theme God's great love for sinners that changes your heart towards self and others and HIM!

 

 

 

[CoAspen]

Quote

I think Dave, Tom, and Greg are the bullys and trying to censor and harass, and name call you just because you wont tow the party line here. The hatred and  vitriol they exhibit proves my point. Of course, they have a couple of followers who will disagree.

More than a couple!!!

Making accusations w/o foundation.

Me thinks people need to look up definitions before posting words into sentences.

[LifeHiscost]

6 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said:

When you see Christians express and share love  and affirm God's Great Love for the LGBTIQQAAP Communitty As they are and Where they stand

It is a sure Sign that they Themselves Know God's Great Love As they Are and Where they stand also.

You cannot share God's Great love and the GOSPEL with out it.

 

a facebook post

more or less

and the running theme God's great love for sinners that changes your heart towards self and others and HIM!

 

 

 

This is how God's love is exercised towards a man of His own heart when David presumed upon God's mercy.

…9'Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10'Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' 11"Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.… 2 Samuel 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Robert]

56 minutes ago, jackson said:

"You are justified by your faith and judged by your works, which are the evidence of sincere  faith."

Faith is not the Savior.  Faith justifies no one.

Our works prove what type of gospel we have received. Take the following for example:

Luke 18:10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed these things about himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men: extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, and I tithe of all that I earn.’

13 “But the tax collector, standing at a distance, would not even lift his eyes to heaven, but struck his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner.’

14 “I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.

 

[Gail]

Forgive me for interrupting, but the title of this topic is, Don't Hate. Is everyone happy with how the discussion has gone? Have we gotten anywhere on the topic of hating?

[Bravus]

Don't you hate it when a topic drifts?

I think the old faith/works chestnut probably needs its own new thread in Theology. 

Not that it'll end up going anywhere except in circles. Nature of that particular beast.