Why say "GAY CHRISTIAN" ?

[Stan]

I say this as an over weight person, to constantly be jumping un someone because they are gay or because they eat the wrong lifestyle...  which is worse?

[bonnie]

41 minutes ago, Stan said:

I say this as an over weight person, to constantly be jumping un someone because they are gay or because they eat the wrong lifestyle...  which is worse?and then accuse others of being a bully

What may be as bad is consistently bring up a topic, and condemn those as unchristian that don't agree with you .This particular topic is brought up by one person. Very mixed message,claiming to be repentant of the gay lifestyle,yet making statements that are totally inconsistent with that. Why would you give up a lifestyle and then defend it at every turn? More than once he has brought up that "gay marriage might even be considered holy"

Along with all the articles of various denominations that have suddenly seen the light and changed their view on gay marriage.

 

 I cannot speak for "Mike",but for me and I think a lot of people,I don't care if gay lives a homosexual lifestyle,I don't care if he regularly changes partners,or if the relationship with the man he lives with is purely platonic. 

It is the constant condemning of those that don't accept this lifestyle as biblical.,making them less of a christian than he is or those that don't have a problem with a gay lifestyle. I am not obligated to condone either by silence or verbally a homosexual lifestyle when someone tries to enforce the idea it really is a godly lifestyle.

I had several gay co-workers and with the exception of those that were constantly harping on the merits of a gay lifestyle,they were accepted and well liked.  Those that harped on those awful people that thought it wrong were not very welcome.You simply could not have a normal conversation with them.

I have several friends that are overweight,some more so than others. Only one am  aware of the weight and that is because it is a constant topic and complaint as to how others view her. She is her own biggest problem. But she will tell you in all sincerity,she can't help it,calories are in the air she breathes. She does alienate those that would be her friend regardless of her weight.

[GayatfootofCross]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

I say this as an over weight person, to constantly be jumping un someone because they are gay or because they eat the wrong lifestyle...  which is worse?

Stan, It is with great embarrassment I share this.

I never shared this before.

The Church I grew up with ... had people inspecting the fellowship dishes (even guests) and if  people mixing fruits and vegies you would never hear the end of it.

One member in good standing told me :he gauges people's Spiritual Life by their weight.

Imagine every Sabbath walking in and people quoting scriptures about the Body is the temple and the fat is for GOD  and waving 'Counsels on Diet and Health'

Every time!

conversely

Imagine every time a QUEER walks into Church or this Forum and  Scriptures are thrown about about abominations and Sodom.

Every time!

Both gets old very quickly for decades for the survivors. Now why would anyone go to where Christians congregate online or in real life?

thanku Stan for the IGNORE FEATURE!

 

And you know what the most idiotic foolish thing in all this?

After  years of the rude condescending overlording patronizing .bullying ugly backwards unkind socially inept and not to mention VOID OF CHRIST and repulsive statements and warnings and sermons and chit chat and debate.. and Scriptures and EGW used as a bat

The people doing it still have no clue that it doest work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

o boy!

These people have a miserable picture of JESUS if they think this is how to be in church or even here.!

insane!

And God still calls us to love and forgive!

Ahhh mazing!

 

# God forgive them for they really don't know what the heck they are doing

 

 

.

[bonnie]

Here we go again. Talk about bullying.

Imagine every time a QUEER walks into Church or this Forum and  Scriptures are thrown about about abominations and Sodom.

 

Do you think it may be different if you were not the one constantly bringing up being "queer". It would not be the topic it is if it were not for you.

You wave gay around like a red flag,when the truth is most people don't care. They do care that unless they agree with you or shut up they are less christian than you are

 

There are obnoxious straight people,just as there are obnoxious gay people. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Again, **back to topic**

[Tom Wetmore]

13 hours ago, bonnie said:

 

There are obnoxious straight people,just as there are obnoxious gay people. 

Truth be told...  Yes... We have indeed noticed.  And it seems they far outnumber them here...and everywhere. 

The sad part is many are either quite unaware they are, or quite proud of their obnoxiousness or just don't care they are.

Hmmmm....  Enough said on that point, I think.

[bonnie]

52 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said:

Truth be told...  Yes... We have indeed noticed.  And it seems they far outnumber them here...and everywhere. 

The sad part is many are either quite unaware they are, or quite proud of their obnoxiousness or just don't care they are.

Hmmmm....  Enough said on that point, I think.

Actually that isn't quite true. The numbers that approve of a gay lifestyle or wink at it are increasing here and everywhere.

[debbym]

Sin is sin Bonnie, and unfortunately everyone here and there and everywhere is an incurable sinner.  We are born in it and endure it every moment of our lives, and Jesus is the relief, His kindness his mercy, his love for sinful sinners is our only hope.  Heaven is only for the unworthy.

we are not commissioned by the Lord to spend our time pointing the finger at people's sin... we have higher ground to live on.

from Taylor Bunch  "The exodus and the advent movement" "Many had lost sight of Jesus.  They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits and His changeless love for the human family.  All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness, to the helpless human agent.  This is the message God commanded to be given to the world."Testimonies to ministers pages 91 and 92.

we don't need to be mucking around in this man's sin and that man's sin....   the Spirit takes care of it....

 

[bonnie]

33 minutes ago, debbym said:

Sin is sin Bonnie, and unfortunately everyone here and there and everywhere is an incurable sinner.  We are born in it and endure it every moment of our lives, and Jesus is the relief, His kindness his mercy, his love for sinful sinners is our only hope.  Heaven is only for the unworthy.

we are not commissioned by the Lord to spend our time pointing the finger at people's sin... we have higher ground to live on.

from Taylor Bunch  "The exodus and the advent movement" "Many had lost sight of Jesus.  They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits and His changeless love for the human family.  All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness, to the helpless human agent.  This is the message God commanded to be given to the world."Testimonies to ministers pages 91 and 92.

we don't need to be mucking around in this man's sin and that man's sin....   the Spirit takes care of it....

 

You keep right on accusing and ignoring. we are not commissioned by the Lord to spend our time pointing the finger at people's sin

So why are you pointing a finger? I don't care if someone is gay,living a gay lifestyle or not. Nothing I can do about it or should for that matter.

I have never condemned the fact a poster is gay. I don't care. I do care when someone works as hard as possible to make the  gay lifestyle biblical and possibly holy. Topic after topic condemning those that simply believe the gay lifestyle is wrong and they are less than christian if they feel that way.

Condemning then turning around and complain of all the " holier than thou christians" for condemning. Someone chooses to acknowledge being gay,their business. Condemning those that don't agree with that lifestyle again and again then becomes the business of who is being condemned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bonnie]

There is no question sin is sin.  When you claim you have repented of a sin voluntarily,then proceed to extol the merits and positive aspects of that sin,going so far as to question if the bible really means what it says or if a biblical scholar will come along and make it not a sin is that repentance? I am not in charge of someone else repenting of  a particular sin,that is their business, but stop condemning everyone else in the process.

 

 

If you do not want others condemning you,why would you spend so much time  condemning others?

Gay would be treated as anyone else in our church. Until and if the same mind set and condemning attitude would be present. If the demand that everyone accept the ideas that have been presented here or be quiet it would not work very well

[GayatfootofCross]

On 2/15/2016 at 0:53 PM, Gail said:

Because Gay does not celebrate this lifestyle. He identifies with it, because he will be gay until Jesus comes just as I will have sinful tendencies until Jesus comes so I identify with sinners. 

Gay has claimed the blood of Christ. He is not practicing. He identifies with gays still because he is ministering to them of Christ's love.

On 2/15/2016 at 7:48 AM, Gail said:

Throughout the Old Testament there were leaders who connected themselves with the terrible sins of their people in their prayers to God: Nehemiah, Daniel, Moses. They identified themselves as idolatrous even though they were not. It's not a me vs them mentality that they had, rather one that they were all sinners together. 

 

 

 Hey Everyone!

It has been a lively chat.. I do must say!

now back to to topic!

Gail yes and let me tell you it goes against everything I was taught to be in Church.

And some people will never understand that.

To be counted among the transgressors.

So to speak 

 

 

As a young gay man if i were around a group of people who harped on the evils of cheese and black pepper ..I never admitted I ate cheese and black pepper.

(they both were undigestible and a grave sin to our Temples...therefore to the Holy Spirit therefore blasphemy... )

Well I wanted to fit in.!

I pretended My diet was perfect when it was not.

I thought this way the way to be. To fit in. To be seen as a good christian boy.

There has been long stretches of being vegan and vegetarian and even raw food fasts in my life.

As well as eating cheese pizza and ice cream' in between.

oops!

My reputation was guarded at all costs even to the point of mocking QUEERS and holding them in derision along with my churched peers.

I did everything I could to look straight. If anybody looked at me sideways with the hit of me being accusing me of being gay or effiminate I would have killed myself.

At 15 i jumped off my parents two story roof  ..face first cause of the anguish thinking God hated me.

I survived and my parents didn't care what happened that night.

On Judgement DAY ..God can tell you all HIMSELF that I was all about manufacturing this straight impenetrable wall and i would have died if found out.

I had girlfriends and was to be married all for the sake of showing the world "I AM STRAIGHT!"

I hung girlie posters in my bedroom  And acted like Farrah Fawcett Majors or whoever  turned me on! (thinking back maybe it was Cheryl Ladd)

Well ok it was Suzanne Somers.

Jiggle TV!

I became a father at 21 ...which became my show card! SEE IM HETERO!... look look..

I protested too much

It was  all about fitting in. All about looking holy. All about looking like i didn't sin..

It was my christian culture built on lies all around me . When people confessed (prayer meeting of talking about other's  umm.. issues) it was either about watching  too much TV or not spending time with GOD  that week or liking desserts a little more than they should.

If it was more heinous than that it would be thought of as SAFE thing to confess to thel the church  an "overcomed sin" . Never a sin it if still in the life.

(i think we were supposed to have a victory to report ech week..moving towards translation)

If someone were to fall back..it was a secret.. and sometimes became ruthless and gossiped  if found out.

I dreaded the day someone would get wind of my failings.

I remember the struggle of holiness of people throwing out the Tv. And bragged another stage of holiness was attained.

I myself didn't watch TV or even read the Newspapers. It was by chance I heard we were sending a rocket up to space with a teacher in it.

As a Literature Evangelist I knocked on Someone's door and a gentleman answered with a daze on his face with these words... " The Space Challenger just blew up "

I almost said to him "what's that?" then i stopped myself remembering i heard something about a rocket with a teacher.

I was so out of touch trying to be so holy.

I was taught that everything in the world was evil.

I went to my parents house as a young man one evening and they begged me to watch a VCR movie with them. "Back to the Future"

I felt like God abandoned me for doing that one night.

Everything I did was cause for being booted by God.

I saw HIM that way. I as an impressionable naive young man who looked around me to see what religion was.

I came from a non christian home.

All I listened to was old hymms. My church told me it was of the devil to listen to Sandie Patty or Stryper. It was too worldly.

In my thinking..I even stopped listening to hymms on the Sabbath. Cause I enjoyed it too much. It was pleasure that i got the rest of the week ..but had to do something even loftier  to reach GOD.

(at CHURCH it was OK.. but not when i got home)

I tried to be so good. So .Holy. So looked upon as a great Christian by GOD and everyone else.

Some people can sustain that way of being all their life. I couldnt....

 

# My whole  Church pretended they did not sin.

Everybody and I wanted to be well thought of.

I still do!

[Gail]

The topic was posted where you would expect to find it and in a place that is easily avoided by those who would rather not see it.

If it was me being accused, I think that if someone wanted to talk seriously with me over a sin, and they actually cared, that they would do so privately, then in front of witnesses, before taking it to the church.

Gay issues are not going to go away, either in the church or in the world. Like it or not, it is a real issue. I am not gay, have never been, am not tempted or threatened to be, even with the articles and threads posted in that particular forum.

If this thread was in Townhall or somewhere other than where it is, I would have locked it. But since it is where it should be I'll leave it be. Until war breaks out.

[Gail]

I am glad that the people who post here DO have gay friends and relate to them as they would their other friends. 

[joeb]

Gail,

While Nehemiah identified with his people he was very outspoken about their sin.  He did not participate in it or try to justify it in any way, shape, or form.  He told his people to immediately stop the sinful behavior and not to identify with it.  The Bible never tells us to identify with any specific sin.

Let's extend your logic to other areas of sin that are often found to have family ties.  How about dishonesty in all its forms?  I know a family that would rather lie to you than tell you truth.  And when I say family I mean at least 4 generations who act this way. I don't know any of them who are honest.  Two were cops, one an SDA pastor, one a teacher, the others were/are simple blue collar people.  So, to me this is very close to genetic sin.  Should they say were "born" this way and thus "celebrate" their particular brand of sin and require other people to "accept" their dishonesty?  If you point out how blatantly obvious their lies are you are their enemy. Thats the way they act.  If you're going to be consistent on this issue you're going to have to idenitify with dishonesty.  How about the flandering spouses who are out of control?  Should we identify with them?  How about all the damage they do to their spouses and children? 

Sin can never be minimized in any form.  And you will never find a prophet of God who did so.  The fact that they identified with sinful humanity simply says they were not hypocrites who condemned sin in others but not in themselves.   One cannot intercede with God for someone else and have known sin in their own life and expect answers. 

[joeb]

Why not say, Lying Christian?  Why not say, Christian Thief?  Why not Christian Bigot?  Why not Christian Backstabber?  Why not identify with every sin humanity commits.  We're all born susceptible to them.  We're all born with a genetic disposition to sin.  Why pick out homosexuality and say those who have that genetic disposition to sin should identify with that sin?  To what end?  If we're honest with people we won't hide our pasts.  But to identify ourselves with our past sins is to glorify the sin.  Why not just glorify all sin instead of one? 

I don't get it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

5 minutes ago, joeb said:

Why not say, Lying Christian?  Why not say, Christian Thief?  Why not Christian Bigot?  Why not Christian Backstabber?  Why not identify with every sin humanity commits.  We're all born susceptible to them.  We're all born with a genetic disposition to sin.  Why pick out homosexuality and say those who have that genetic disposition to sin should identify with that sin?  To what end?  If we're honest with people we won't hide our pasts.  But to identify ourselves with our past sins is to glorify the sin.  Why not just glorify all sin instead of one? 

I don't get it.

 

I suppose some would say that part of my identification of 'exwitch' is "glorifying past sin".... that's their prerogative, but I respectfully disagree.  It can be a remarkable vehicle in sharing the story of redemption and of Christ's never-ending quest to redeem his children...

[bonnie]

14 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

 

 

I suppose some would say that part of my identification of 'exwitch' is "glorifying past sin".... that's their prerogative, but I respectfully disagree.  It can be a remarkable vehicle in sharing the story of redemption and of Christ's never-ending quest to redeem his children...

remarkable vehicle in sharing the story of redemption and of Christ's never-ending quest to redeem his children...

 

Can the above be true if there is constant condemnation of others?  Would it be true if you were to say some think it may even be holy? Would it be true if you posted  continually various articles of church leaders of other denominations that now see the light and don't believe being a witch or witchcraft is wrong? Would you expect most to believe it was part of your past if you were so diligent in showing it really wasn't the sin people thought it was and the really sinful people were those that thought being a witch was wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

[bonnie]

For some of us it isn't even the issue of this lifestyle being in the past. Or whether it is present lifestyle. Every opportunity that presents itself leads to this

condemnation of everyone else that believes this is biblically wrong. One person brings it up consistently and the theme is the same.  Many articles are posted to show the "christianity" of other denominations and even some of ours that on reflection they no longer consider this wrong. Their choice,but so far what I am getting from you and others if you don't accept their decision/change of heart it is best to keep quiet so you are not seen as a bully or a self righteous hypocrite.

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**shrugs**  

Bonnie, it isn't necessary for anyone to respond to anything that Gay writes.  

If one is consistently following up someone else's comments with negativity, then mightn't it be better not to read the posts?  It's almost as if some folks get their jollies out of reading Gay's threads, because they then can start expounding on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior (which isn't even in question).  (And I'm not specifically referring to Bonnie)....  

1.  Homosexual sexual intimacy is not God-ordained.

2.  Homosexual tendencies may or may not be genetic in a person.  Sometimes it is learned; sometimes it is genetic.

3.  Some homosexuals can live together and be celibate.  Some find it impossible as a besetting sin.  King David's besetting sin was lust.  For a married woman.  And he intentionally acted on that.  Yet, David was called a "man after God's own heart."

I suppose there are many who feel they are doing God's will to point out the miserable failings of others, but is that really God's will?  To me, it seems more like being played by the Devil.  And I'm not interested in going there again.

 

[GayatfootofCross]

1 hour ago, joeb said:

Why not say, Lying Christian?  Why not say, Christian Thief?  Why not Christian Bigot?  Why not Christian Backstabber?  Why not identify with every sin humanity commits.  We're all born susceptible to them.  We're all born with a genetic disposition to sin.  Why pick out homosexuality and say those who have that genetic disposition to sin should identify with that sin?  To what end?  If we're honest with people we won't hide our pasts.  But to identify ourselves with our past sins is to glorify the sin.  Why not just glorify all sin instead of one? 

I don't get it.

Hello Joeb,

Gail is understanding what I am doing in way of identifying with a chiefly marginalized group (cause I still am marginalized in much of Christiandom and so are my peers). And compared it with Nehemiah. She is doing that cause she knows where I am coming from and standing up for me

Not as a thesis on Nehemiah.

 

She has been so kind to me and taken  an interest in me and we have shared books and sermons and Rejoiced in JESUS as our Foundation.

She has heard more detailed nitty gritty of my life and parts of my Buddy's testimony too and how we live as Christian Brothers now.

And I don't identify with lying backstabber etc.

So that's why I don't put myself out there like that

And being Gay Man is not a sin.anymore than being a Straight Man.

It comes down to what are we doing with these components in the Light of God's Presence.

May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength!

....................................................................

And to all here!

 

You know we are talking about an aspect of my testimony and it started out as answering a very good question a stranger asked..

I am sharing my story.

If people think its made up or a pretend or a lie.I can't help that.

And its ridiculous  to hear other strangers .say

"why say this why say that"

"Hey your not doing it right"

" i dont agree on one thing so the whole thing needs to be thrown out"

" I don't like what im hearin so therefore u shouldn't say anything "

"u left out this and u have to say that"

uummmm

lol

this is my story ..it cannot be dictated or altered to suit people here

but only kept age appropriate

 

 

This is mine and was asked to share mine.

That is all.

I take great risk by sharing and I share still some more.

So what if my theology doesn't agree with others.

So what if my walk is in a different place than theirs.

I am not them..  and u and they are not me ....and of course my story will be different from theirs/yours.

Am I supposed to conclude my story with ..I don't sin? ..so everyone will breath a sigh of relief?

Or announce I have come around to their way of thinking so they will be comfortable?

 

GOD cares more how we treat each other when we disagree... more than being right

GOD cares more how our knee jerk reaction to each other ..more than theology.

.

 Does anyone want to share their honest imperfect story and let the chips fall will they may?

( u can start a new thread in another forum)

 

# God loves you ..the imperfect you.. now as you stand

 

 

[CoAspen]

Gay,

Just remember my previous post.....just ignore the ignorant and don't feel the need to respond or continue to explain your self, they are not listening.

[CoAspen]

ignorant 

adjective

lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated 

lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular

I am ignorant of what it means to be a gay person, I'm straight.

I am ignorant of what it means to be a Black American, I am WASP.

I am ignorant of what it means to me an immigrant, I was born here in the USA.

I am ignorant of what it means to be perfect, I am imperfect.

I can remain ignorant, with preconceived ideas or learning, or....I can listen, learn, investigate with an open mind and become more knowledgeable. 

[GayatfootofCross]

11 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

ignorant 

adjective

lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated 

lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular

I am ignorant of what it means to be a gay person, I'm straight.

I am ignorant of what it means to be a Black American, I am WASP.

I am ignorant of what it means to me an immigrant, I was born here in the USA.

I am ignorant of what it means to be perfect, I am imperfect.

I can remain ignorant, with preconceived ideas or learning, or....I can listen, learn, investigate with an open mind and become more knowledgeable. 

it is easy to do  and be ignorant

It is difficult to be more than yourself

God calls us to reach out and listen to others

maybe walk in others shoes?

If even for a tiny inch if u can step outside of self?

But it is easier to not.

Thanku Co Aspen for listening.

[bonnie]

56 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

**

 

Bonnie, it isn't necessary for anyone to respond to anything that Gay writes.  

Agreed. However are you of the opinion that Gay is not looking for affirmation or a reaction from others by posting what he does?

If one is consistently following up someone else's comments with negativity, then mightn't it be better not to read the posts?  It's almost as if some folks get their jollies out of reading Gay's threads, because they then can start expounding on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior (which isn't even in question).  (And I'm not specifically referring to Bonnie)....  

Agreed again. Which is why I have basically quit responding to what he says for the most part. But then most topics on here should have some kind of warning.If you don't agree and will say something negative do not reply. If negativity is a real problem then maybe the negativity towards all those that believe a homosexual lifestyle  is not God ordained should cease as well. Or is negativity okay as long as it is reserved for certain ones?

Quote

1.  Homosexual sexual intimacy is not God-ordained.

Not so clear tho is it? The many posts of "christian " leaders that now disagree with that and believe it is not biblically wrong are presented here regularly.

2.  Homosexual tendencies may or may not be genetic in a person.  Sometimes it istivity  learned; sometimes it is genetic.

That can be true of many tendencies. That does not mean you search for the approval of those that say it really is alright

3.  Some homosexuals can live together and be celibate.  Some find it impossible as a besetting sin.  King David's besetting sin was lust.  For a married woman.  And he intentionally acted on that.  Yet, David was called a "man after God's own heart."

David never searched for approval of "his besetting sin" Yes he intentionally sinned. Did he repent and then condemn all others that believed that behavior wrong? I don't think he did. I think he set that part of his life aside and did become a man after God's own heart

 

Quote

I suppose there are many who feel they are doing God's will to point out the miserable failings of others, but is that really God's will?  To me, it seems more like being played by the Devil.  And I'm not interested in going there again.

Is condemning others constantly played by the devil? I believe the bible says something about that

Hypothetically  I come to a forum and announce I am a adulterer. I have been married for 53 years and have been committing adultery all this time.I have now repented. What if I blame all those that may think my behavior is wrong and point to as many christian leaders as I can find that will on reflection decide they have been wrong,it really isn't a sin and continue seeing other men. Of course denying there is any adultery. I do this over and over,do you think I may get a less than favorable response? Might there be some question as to the sincerity of my repentance?

Will I be applauded and congratulated for acknowledging my sin  while constantly condemning so many others and proving how many "christian leaders" no longer believe I was sinning.

If I were to do that you can bet I am looking for a response. It may be that I feel it should only be positive. If that is the case on certain topics by all means make it known. Pretty simple on topics dealing with the gay lifestyle to say only one negative response allowed or none at all.

Personally I don't care that we have a gay member.  Whether he is living a gay lifestyle or not. Not my business. The push to make this a acceptable biblical lifestyle by SDA's is the business of all SDA's. You can go back and you will find I have not condemned him for being gay. I would not condemn him for living a gay lifestyle. I do have a problem with the labeling and condemning of everyone he comes in contact with that does not agree with him

 

Quote

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Bonnie, correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that your primary issues with Gay's posts are that you feel:

1) that he is looking for people to tell him that it is okay to be in a full homosexual relationship,

2) that he is promoting the full homosexual lifestyle as being acceptable in the SDA church,

3) that faithful SDA Christians are obligated to condemn an SDA Christian who is in a full homosexual relationship, and

4) that anyone on the forum who does condemn such a relationship within the SDA church is considered a bully and is put down and made to look like the bad guy.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth... but am I close to your main points?