Does the Bible really say that homosexuality is sinful?

March 21, 2016

22 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

Not interpreting the Bible, in this case, suggesting a possible reading/interpretation/approach.

Not saying it's the One True Way to think about it. If you find it unconvincing, that's entirely fine. I'm not especially convinced by it myself.

To all..

Whether we thinks gay christian men/women (or gay other religion.spiritual) choose or convicted differently on picking a life partner or not to.

As Christians we are called to look at their souls the same as ours. Beloved of God!

Not lording our own interpretations or understanding over them. Condemning them if they do not hold to same ideas as ours.

Looking at our QUEER brothers and sisters equally. Just as starters with strangers.

And if in relationship with them..If you find the Spirit leading you to share concerns regarding their Face with God. Do share.

But if they don't get you or understand or disagree with you..what are you going to do the next day?

And the week after?

Keep bringing it up?

There must be mutual respect all the way around regarding this issue.

Pam brings up conviction.

It is God's hands. Both groups of people are in His eyes and have to work on all His Children.

Now is what we have.

Free to find the commonality. The Foundation of Christ.

Rejoice in HIM as the Family of GOD.

May the Joy of the LORD be all (Queers included) Strength!

.

# pssst...the disagreeing understanding that seems to address gay passages are not going to be settled

March 21, 2016

3 hours ago, Kevin(wrx) said:

Gay, I do not mean this as a personal attack but please look at what Paul said about leaven in the church in 1 Corinthians 5. Also, in the next chapter Paul lists sins which are pertinant to this discussion in passed tense after having been washed. This simply means once convicted and washed they no longer were living the same sinful lifestyle.

⁹Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived;neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor ^[f]effeminate, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰nor thieves, nor thecovetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you weresanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

And chapter 5 on the leaven in the church and to not associate with them...

⁹I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; ¹⁰I didnot at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.¹¹But ^[f]actually, I wrote to you not to associate ^[g]with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. ¹²For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?¹³But those who are outside, God^[h]judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

Kevin(wrx),

Please do not see this as a personal attack.

I really appreciate the scriptures you are sharing in all this.

I can wax eloquently about the word homosexual and effeminate and what the greek really means etc. (the word homosexual did not exist till the 1800's and not even in the original 1611 KJV, for instance)

and BTW its in 1 Cor 6 not 1 Cor 5..but anyhoo.

But lets look at an example of the JEWS being on the side of right historically and scripturally regarding their treatment of a sect of Belivers that they looked down and not see as their spiritual equals.

The Jews being very exclusive about whom to associate (with scriptures and a rich powerful miraculous history to back them up) stood on the side of right.

Do you realize how the JEWS saw themselves as so correct and so right? Kevin(wrx)!

Yet ... yet, JESUS made a beeline to this ostracized people and towns. And even told parables (plural) to the Jews faces highlighting Samaritans spirituality.

.

Could we even imagine of Jesus showing up in our day and age talking to the great Christian leaders of the various Major Denominations and bringing up QUEER CHRISTIANS in examples of living out God's Kingdom as an example to them?

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and Amen!

We can be right all the day long. Using Scriptures with the best of intentions but in the end further alienating God's other Children.

Jesus showed us how to do it.

We can use the Bible proving our point.

But what does it do toward our heart towards another?

In the Thread....

I bring out what some Gay Queers are seeing and understanding in the scriptures lensed in the original intent. They have formed churches around this and grow up in Jesus learning to be free from the modern and ancient cultural christian biases.

Learning to not be ashamed for who they are. Desiring the things that this world cannot give.

And standing on the side of right can also look down on your kind of Christian walk and understanding.

Thereby also becoming exclusive of people like you. Seeing you as the Jews of Christ's day.

And how I want my fellow beautiful Queers to love you and esteem you higher than themselves.

Without sacrificial love ..knowledge of the scriptures is a clanging symbol on both sides.

May the JOY of the LORD be ALL our Strength!

March 22, 2016

3 hours ago, Kevin(wrx) said:

Gay, you've missed the point of 1 Corinthians 5 which I did properly cite in reference to leaven inspite of your correction.

The point that you seem to continue to miss is Christ did associate with sinners to bring them inside the fold but instructed them to sin no more. Once a sinner continues to sin from inside the fold they are considered to be leaven and not to be associated with any longer. Read the chapter slowly and carefully and you will see it isn't a Pharisee I resemble but am reiterating what Paul actually wrote.

On the etymology of the word homosexual not occurring until almost modern times obviously explains why the Bible doesn't use the word but uses other ways to describe it as sin as with the verses currently being studied.

Thank you for the correction of the text reference

I was going back and forth on google to the original 1611 and I guess I got sidetracked and saw one thing and applied to another. and I checked and rechecked.. ugh..

Thank you for being so gracious Kevin(wrx)

And yes it is all about Jesus bringing His Precious People to not to live in sin.

The noncondemnation That HE offers is the jumping off point as well as a Safe Community with Jesus as the Foundation to not be so self centered and pushing GOD away.

It can only happen when we see How Good HE is and how much HE really does loves us. Let that warm admiration of His Heart toward us leads us to a deeper and yet deeper repentance.

We as the Church can share that in our conduct and words and reaching out to Queers.

Be HIS feet and hands winning them over.

Jesus doesn't condemn us. Our sins were already in Him on the Cross. When JESUS died ...we all died ( 2 Cor 5:14 ) then further Paul says we all look at worldly people (living for the flesh)

as Christ does. Already Reconciled to HIM. That is the GOSPEL..He does not hold sinners sins against them.

This Great Passage also emphasizes to live a Holy Life and not sin cause we died in HIM. And we as Christians recognize this already!

The trick is to get others who do not know this to believe this also. We are Reconciled .

We Are Reconciled!

He opened the Gate to us!

By HIS stripes we are HEALED!

We look at ALL as Children of GOD already. Treating them as such.Winning them over to a GOD who already purchased them 2000 years ago!

It is Beautiful to grasp this.

May the Joy of the LORD be all OUR Strength!

March 22, 2016

34 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

; there is always hope for them in Christ our Lord.

God is so Good!

Thank you for saying something to Kevin(wrx) regarding Gays can't be saved cause they are Gay.

We queers have been at the receiving end of this kind of Spiritual abuse and twisting of scriptures since antiquity. All carefully crafted to block Hope for my tribe in the pits of hopelessness and Shame.

There is a joke among many of my people putting "unless your gay" at the end of every american promise.....

Men are created equal unless your gay.

Politicians saying 'U are what makes America great unless your gay'

Life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness unless your gay.

etc.

And go back even further in the past and demonstrated in the present. If Queers exposed to certain elements in our Churches at the end of every Bible promise....

(i heard it loud and clear at age 12 in 1975)

Jesus saves unless your gay.

Christ died for all unless your gay

Jesus loves me this i know unless I'm gay.

Jesus wants me for a sunbeam unless I'm gay.

But anyhoo .. Some Gays are figuring out to not let the devil play those tapes over and over again in our hearts anymore.

One of the huge reasons why I put myself out there and here.

(My Partner and I are out in our SDA Church With JESUS)

Letting the World know that JESUS loves us and saves to the uttermost!

BTW Keven(wrx) didn't harm me at all with that post. He harmed himself.

March 22, 2016

dear Moderators I see here that the original post by Kevin(wrx) was deleted and The Wanderer had it.

I saw it in the original and went in a different direction (u can never fail the Jesus Direction) addressing it.

Then now responding to The Wanderer post to Kevin(wrx) i said a lil something.

I ask for it to stay in The Wanderer post to expose an underlying spirit and why the resistance to many good points made in this thread.

As I've said I heard this theology from Christians since I was a child.

It does kill hope in JESUS*. It needs to be addressed even for a brief moment.

Praise GOD for Christians getting a Glimpse of JESUS and His Saving Love for all and making a point in sharing that!

* I should know!

#In my thirties thinking what Keviv(wrx) said to be true .. I clinged to the song "grace grace Gods Grace. Grace that is bigger than all our sins:

March 22, 2016

24 minutes ago, Kevin(wrx) said:

Oh, I hadn't noticed a post of mine was removed.

o dear

It's been known here I can't spell and have an awful time with grammar and famous for my non proof reading abilities and my bad typing is legendary and now....

My scrolling sucks out loud!

I looked I looked and I looked some more.

up n down ..down n up

I was afraid to even quote it myself..thinking I might add to the crime!

Okay maybe I should do what i do best!

S I N G !

la la lahh [off key]

What wondrous love is this? Oh my Soul Oh my Soul!

# dizzy queen

March 22, 2016

14 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said:

We look at ALL as Children of GOD already.

We might, but God doesn't. His children are those who accept and obey Him (believers). The unbelieving, those who break His commandments, are not called His children. Remember these words? "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

God says there that just being born of flesh and blood or of the "will of man" does not make one a child of God--rather, we must be born of God, having received Him, before we become His children.

March 23, 2016

Quote

His children are those who accept and obey Him (believers). The unbelieving, those who break His commandments, are not called His children.

1. Who, names please, is not a sinner.

2. Breaking the commandments, sinner.

3. According to your interpretation, no one is a child of God.

March 23, 2016

For some the terms "son of God" and "child of God" are used differently. Those who do that may differ between them as follows:

1) Son of God: As Green pointed out and in the Biblical text that he cited: One who has been converted and become a follower of Christ;.

2) Child of God: A reference to the belief that God was the creator and is responsible for all current life. Therefore, sinners and saved may be called as a child of God.

NOTE: Please do not make a thing of my use of the singular rather than the plural.

March 23, 2016

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Changing the subject over to "God loves everybody," doesnt really establish much with regard to the OP and there is no one in this thread who would not agree with that. I hope that disagreement between life-styles here is not being equated to "not loving God," or some of us allegedly saying "God not loving us." It needs to be noted that we are not "reconciled" unless we want to be. We are not saved in sin, but from sin. And the good news is that EVERYONE has an equal chance at that. This topic according to the Op is attempting to discuss weather or not the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and there were 5 different texts cited as what the OP was wanting to look into.

......................................................................................

How The Wanderer!

How scandalous that I changed the entire thread to something so audacious to God loves everybody .. On a christian forum no less!

If you would look at the context and to whom it was addressed who was saying basically homosexuality is the worst sin at best and homosexuals are sin itself at worst.. you will hopefully understand

the need to point out God grace covers all sin and yes yes yes He does Love everybody and that love is a saving love if accepted..

I highlighted in red something you must have felt the need to say. Cause you think I didnt?

" This Great Passage also emphasizes to live a Holy Life and not sin cause we died in HIM. And we as Christians recognize this already! " -Gay

I believe that if Christians look at Gods work on the Cross 2000 years ago and seeing the beautiful TRUTH that in Adam we all sinned and we are now put in Christ and are already reconciled.it would help Christians to look upon US QUEERS as sames as themselves..

or maybe not

I am so glad I will not be hauled away by the internet police for not answering directly the OP on every post I make . ...but as a content Gay Man expanding it to the most beautiful part in all of this!

Thank you for Sharing the important things on your heart too The Wanderer in this thread.

Be aware I might run amok again! :rollingsmile:

Quote

It is apparent to me that in order to have the degrading passions a rejection of God occurs first. Because of their rejection the overriding desire is to succumb to their passions. Any time sin is committed God's obedience is rejected. A continuing in such a lifestyle then results in a rejection by God.

Simply put, homosexual sex is a rejection of God and ultimately sin.Sin can become very bad cylce with God letting us give into our own desires if we don't desire Him.

March 23, 2016

31 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

For some the terms "son of God" and "child of God" are used differently. Those who do that may differ between them as follows:

1) Son of God: As Green pointed out and in the Biblical text that he cited: One who has been converted and become a follower of Christ;.

2) Child of God: A reference to the belief that God was the creator and is responsible for all current life. Therefore, sinners and saved may be called as a child of God.

NOTE: Please do not make a thing of my use of the singular rather than the plural.

I don't see the distinction you allude to being made in the Bible. Consider the following verses. Both "sons of God" and "children of God" appear to refer to the same group of people--those who have faith in Christ and are led by His Spirit. Notice also that some are "not the children of God." The Bible could hardly be more clear on this point that not all are children of God.

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:8)

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:26)

1 hour ago, CoAspen said:

1. Who, names please, is not a sinner.

2. Breaking the commandments, sinner.

3. According to your interpretation, no one is a child of God.

Actually, anyone can choose to obey God instead of continuing in sin. It is true, as Romans 3:23 points out, that all "have sinned," but it never says all "have to sin." Consider the following:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:9-10)

March 23, 2016

Green: Perhaps (?) it is not a distinction that is found in the Bible. Regardless, it is how some people use the terms.

However, if one believes that God created all life and that all life is sustained by God today, then the use of the English language allows a living person to be called a child of God.

,

March 23, 2016

1 minute ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Green: Perhaps (?) it is not a distinction that is found in the Bible. Regardless, it is how some people use the terms.

However, if one believes that God created all life and that all life is sustained by God today, then the use of the English language allows a living person to be called a child of God.

,

Gregory, that is human reasoning--something the Bible does not applaud so much. Consider the devil--God created him too. Is he a child of God? I would have no problem calling him a "creature" or a "creation" of God, but to say "child" means something else entirely, biblically speaking.

March 23, 2016

8 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

However, if one believes that God created all life and that all life is sustained by God today, then the use of the English language allows a living person to be called a child of God.

Yes and if we want to get technical.

I am a descendant of Adam..and so are you!

great great great etc. grandson of Adam

Adam is called a son of GOD

All humans are HIS CHILDREN

And even JESUS showed us all how to pray!

OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN

FATHER is so GOOD to us!

more Good News for the people who think they can not be a part of the KINGDOM

March 23, 2016

11 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Yes, it's very scandalous. lol But I don't see anything wrong with trying to promote discussion that is on topic with the OP. Especially when it is used as a tactic to infer that others participating here in this topic do not believe that God loves everybody, just because they disagree on some line of thinking. You are an intelligent man and i am pretty sure you know what I am talking about. You did post the other day that you "sometimes" have taken my counsel, and so I offer it again, just incase.

The truth is growing up with Chrstians and them not knowing I was gay always said things when thinking they are with others who are of the same mindset. They always used a different gauge or measuring yard when talking about QUEERS.

Only in Heaven ,when the records are brought out, will we see just how many people think God does not love gays. or less Spiritual or less than themselves or not deserving the basic human dignities.

And use the Bible to defend that position ad naseum.

I have seen too much of this here and there and everywhere.

Therefore I repeat it Ad Naseum and never never tire of that THING that I Cling To!

GODS LOVE FOR ONE SUCH AS I.

May the JOY of the LORD be your Strength.

March 23, 2016

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

Green, I am going to have to go with Gregory on this one. Are you saying it's wrong for us to use the term "child of God?" And, how would that relate to the OP here?

It relates to the OP in its theology. GATFOTC is strongly implying in his posts that since we're all "children of God," we're all to be heirs of the kingdom. It's essentially an "everyone is saved" philosophy. If that is true, then the title question of this thread would be answered with either a "no" or an "if it does it doesn't matter." However, I believe it should be answered with a definitive "Yes. And it is of eternal import."

March 23, 2016

Anyone who claims to never sin - which is what you seem to be claiming - is, I would argue, failing to identify some of his/her own sins, of omission as well as commission. I don't treat EGW as gospel but she did say that as we come closer to Jesus we become more aware of our own sinfulness and imperfection. The logical inverse for someone who claims to be perfect is...

March 23, 2016

2 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

Anyone who claims to never sin - which is what you seem to be claiming - is, I would argue, failing to identify some of his/her own sins, of omission as well as commission. I don't treat EGW as gospel but she did say that as we come closer to Jesus we become more aware of our own sinfulness and imperfection. The logical inverse for someone who claims to be perfect is...

I have not claimed to never sin. I have simply shown that the Bible says God's children do not sin. If one wishes to be a child of God, one must "receive" God into the heart and life, and how can one then sin if God abides in him or her? God would never, never sin! In order for any of us to sin, we must reject God's abiding presence first.

March 23, 2016

If no-one is sinless, and one must be sinless to be a child of God, then no-one is a child of God.

March 23, 2016

1 minute ago, David Geelan said:

If no-one is sinless, and one must be sinless to be a child of God, then no-one is a child of God.

Maybe you should open a separate thread on this, as it appears it may require more depth of study than a few short posts can bring out. However, essentially, anyone sinning is not at that moment a child of God. With repentance and confession, God justifies us and we again become His children. God sanctifies His children to have hearts that eventually desire only to do what is right. Even when they have ceased sinning, however, they will not realize it, but will be distrustful of self and feel unworthy still. This is as I understand at present, and I continue to learn more as I study.

March 23, 2016

This takes me right back to the old fear: if I was rock-climbing and missed my grip and swore as I fell to my death, and didn't have time to pray for forgiveness before I hit the rocks below, I would be lost despite fervently seeking and choosing to be saved.

You're right, though, we're off the track for this one and it's probably a new thread for Theology forum.

March 23, 2016

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

well, I have been pretty clear about saying that God loves everyone. But i dont see any point in constantly insinuating that "Christians" do not believe that God loves everybody, just because they do not support/agree with the gay lifestyle. This topic is not about questioning if God loves everybody. There are specific Bible texts named in the OP that we were supposed to be looking at here. There is no need to constantly lecture us about who loves God or who does not. Personally, I believe that you love God, and are seeking Him out avidly. Why not start giving others here the same credit you wish for yourself? I am only addressing this publically, because your comments about this are public. And it just so happens that what i am saying is directly connected to the OP and Romans, chapter one. I am glad to see you have been reading that. I will have to post more later. Running out of time.

?

March 23, 2016

How The Wanderer

I had to read your post to me a few times.

I don't know who loves GOD or not

What I do know is what love for others as for self does look like. Treating others as better than self. The Golden Rule applied in heart looking unto others Basically Addressing the Christian culture that blocks JESUS.

Which is more evil and less understood than Homosexuality.

My post to Kevin(wrx) was responding to his post as I have said before. And I subsequently elaborated with the same experiences that mirror his post.. that is all..If you follow the posts timeline and occurrence.

A lot of mis communication of reading posts that seem to be isolated is not the case.

But where the minds go when reading others thoughts (and ummm.....posting those thoughts)

If my posts are upsetting to you so much that you will feel the need to tell me what I should say or not say many times....then Know this..

I will share what I share.

You can ignore me ..I will not take offense.

May the Joy of the LORD be your Strength THE WANDERER!

.

This is not a black or white issue with me..its a rainbow of colours dealing with direct Issues that affect me

and we see it differently

why surprised?

#i might even post a recipe for fritters that has nothing to do with the OP

Don't tempt me!

:scared:

March 23, 2016

If we return to the texts in Romans, I would note that assuming that 'natural' means 'straight' is a flawed argument, since many animal species as well as all human cultures display homosexual behaviour. Defining 'natural' as effectively meaning 'the norm' or 'what is the case for the majority' defines all difference as deficit... and we're back with redheads and lefthanders being looked at with suspicion.

It does seem from these texts as though Paul does regard homosexual behaviour on the part of either sex as a consequence of sin and apostasy. I think perhaps we stipulate that that is indeed what those texts mean and move on to the remaining ones?

March 23, 2016

'Natural' is not a helpful term at all, in my opinion. It would be very interesting to know what the Greek word used here is and means - I'll go for a dig.

Why is 'natural' unhelpful? Because it too easily encapsulates our prejudices. A couple of generations ago plenty of Christians were arguing that interracial marriage was 'unnatural'.

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