Robert Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I have heard the argument that if God calls us saints, if He calls us “righteous” – then we must be just that – commandment keepers! Having said that, I would like for you to see what Ellen White says of Lot’s daughters: -BC- PP-TI- Patriarchs and Prophets -CN- 14 -CT- Destruction of Sodom -PR- 03 -PG- 167 Lot dwelt but a short time in Zoar. Iniquity prevailed there as in Sodom, and he feared to remain, lest the city should be destroyed. Not long after, Zoar was consumed, as God had purposed. Lot made his way to the mountains, and abode in a cave, stripped of all for which he had dared to subject his family to the influences of a wicked city. But the curse of Sodom followed him even here. The sinful conduct of his daughters was the result of the evil associations of that vile place. Its moral corruption had become so interwoven with [:"red"]their character that they could not distinguish between good and evil.[/] Okay…were Lot’s daughters “righteous”??? According to the above, “no”! Well, there’s problem and it is found in Gen 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill [:"red"]the righteous with the wicked[/], treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right? The LORD said, If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake. Well, we know the story….In the end he only found three (perhaps four) “righteous” people: Lot and his two daughters! Also note this about Lot: 2 Peter 2:7 "And if He [God] rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men...." So what sould we conclude? When the Bible calls believers “righteous” – it is referring to their standing before God ”in Christ Jesus”!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Here's another example: Job 1:8 “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” What was Job in reality? Job 40:3 Behold, I am vile! But in God's eyes Job was blameless because his faith was in Christ's future, atoning Sacrifice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Job 9: 19. If we speak of strength, lo, he is mighty! And if of justice, Who, saith he, will summon me? 20. Though I be righteous, mine own mouth shall condemn me: Though I be perfect, it shall prove me perverse. 21. I am perfect; I regard not myself; I despise my life. 22. It is all one; therefore I say, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Quote: Shane said: Though I be righteous, mine own mouth shall condemn me: Though I be perfect, it shall prove me perverse. 21. I am perfect; I regard not myself; I despise my life. I take it your are rejecting my position? Well I didn't want to get side-tracked, but.... Let's look at Job's evaluation of himself: “I [Job] hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go." [Job 27:6 NASB] “If I [Job] have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless." [Job 31:5,6 NIV] "But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned, because he justified himself before God." [Job 32:2 NASB] What was that Job clearly stated? "I hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go." Does this sound like a man justified by faith or a braggart? Once God appears on the scene He asks Job a very simple question: Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" [Job 38:1,2 NASB] And Job answers: “You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.” [Job 42:3 NIV] After justifying himself before God what does Job end up saying? ”Wherefore I [Job] abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." [Job 42:6 KJV] Repent of what? Well, what was Job’s claim? Right…I am a righteous dude – I’ve done this and this and that….But when Job met True Righteousness he abhorred his boastful words and repented of his true condition: “Behold, I [Job] am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.” [Job 40:4 KJV] Saul [turned Paul] had the same problem, but he like Job learned better! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 "Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, became angry at Job because he justified himself rather than God." [Job 32:2] Please note that Elihu is not one of Job's three, so-called friends! Read the following and as you do ask yourself, "Does this sound like a humble man, a man justified by faith, or does it sound like a self-righteous man [a legalist]?" Job 31:“I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man’s lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless — 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted. 9 “If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door, 10 then may my wife grind another man’s grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 “If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? 16 “If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless— 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow— 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things. 24 “If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, ‘You are my security,’ 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 “If I have rejoiced at my enemy’s misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him— 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life— 31 if the men of my household have never said, ‘Who has not had his fill of Job’s meat?’— 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler— 33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)— 38 “if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley.” Look at Paul before He met Jesus: Phil 3:4 I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. (That is, brag of my attainments and righteousness) If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee…as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. What did Job say? "I am blameless”….What’s the context of “blameless”? Works…doing good…. After Saul meets Christ we see a different Paul: Phil 3:7 But what things were gain to me (all the things he listed), those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung (we know what that is), that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him (there’s the “in Christ” motif), not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. And after Job meets God, we see a different Job. Instead of flapping that mouth – instead of bragging of his righteousness, Job covers his mouth and confesses that he is actually “vile” compared to God’s righteousness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Quote: I take it your are rejecting my position? That would be a faulty assumption. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Here's another: James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, [:"red"]was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous [/]for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? Now go to Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. James and Paul are speaking of two different issues. Paul is talking about our law-performance. James is speaking of works of faith. Rahab was a prostitute at the time she helped the spies, but the fact is she believed in God! The evidence? Works of faith.... Here we have a woman living in sin [according to the law] yet James said she was "righteous"! How? "In Christ"!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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