Are the three Angels' Messages Dead or Alive?

[Samie]

Really? Donald Trump is specifically singled out in Bible prophecy? I admire the tenacity.

[pierrepaul]

I didn't read any of David Montaigne's stuff, but based on the titles of the books on the site (End Times and 2019: The end of the Mayan calendar and the countdown to judgement day; Anti-Christ 2016-2019: Mystery Babylon, Barak Obama and the Islamic Caliphate), it doesn't look like there is much in common with HCH's interpretations.

Like I wrote, I didn't (and won't) read Montaigne's stuff, however, because of the President's name, I certainly expect to see more of this word-play nonsense about "the Trump will sound" and "the last Trump". People have been playing these word-play games for centuries - and it's not restricted to the English-speaking world.

There's a website in French that plays these word games with the Bible and the French language. A number of years ago he claimed that soccer is demonic because the French national soccer association, the "Fédération française de football" has the initials "FFF", and "F" is the 6th letter of the alphabet, so the "FFF" is "666". Moreover, the French pronunciation of the second syllable in "football" is almost identical to the French pronunciation of the Old Testament pagan god "Baal". The mark of the beast is on the forehead and the hand, and Thierry Henry's goal against Ireland which sent the French club to the South Africa tournament in 2010 was scored by the hand and the head. There is no end to the number of word games one can play.

If I understood HCH correctly however, nothing in his interpretation was "word-play" depending upon using any particular translation of the Bible or any particular language.

 

[hch]

On 1/27/2017 at 10:05 PM, phkrause said:

Here's another guys perspective on Bible Prophecy! Almost seems he got some of his stuff from you hch, or you got some of your stuff from him! He even adds Trump into the mix!!

Donald Trump in Bible prophecy?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2017/01/donald-trump-in-bible-prophecy/?utm_source=BeliefnetNL&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Bible+Reading

It happens so often that people read stuff online and then read glimpses of my Bible studies and comment on the other studies as if we are all the same. But there is a difference between Bible study and everything else.

Daniel 8 and 11 clearly identify President Obama. And the War between America and Iran. I read the prophecy to say that the war would keep Obama in office. But The war has not happened yet. A friend who was studying this with me suggested that the war will bring him back to office in fulfillment of the prophecy "return not as the former or the latter." That is no more far fetched than my assuming that the war would keep him in office. Neither scenario are normally what would be expected in the American election process. But we are not dealing with the American political process, we are dealing with a thus saith the Lord. It is a more sure word of prophecy and though we may partially understand the ends, we may have to wait to understand the means. But in any event, my study limits President Trump's term not to go beyond 28 March 2017. 

And I would think that Christ would come to cut Trump's reign short, but the time of trouble has not matured sufficiently to make that call. So I have to conclude that Mr. Obama returns to office before on or before 29 March 2017. And of course I don't have a clue how God would do such a thing. If it does not happen, President Trump would have to be an extension of President Obama.

From a study of Daniel 7, I am on record as saying that President Obama (brass claws) was an extension of President Bush II (Iron teeth). But the image in Daniel 2 only has 2 legs and 2 feet (implied). And the last horse of the apocalypse only has 2 riders death and hell as the beast with lamblike horns only has 2 horns. And the horns are all accounted for in Revelation 13 (Truman to Clinton on beast 1 & Bush II and Obama on beast 2).

God does not tell us thing that are not important in Bible prophecy and He does not make fun of us when we do not understand something. But He does hold us accountable for things that we could have known, if we had only been faithful to study His word.

Christian regards

His child Henry

 

[JoeMo]

hch,

This Obama obsession is making you sound a little weird.  Obama is DONE!  Trump is in charge now.  If anything happens to him, Pence will become president. If anything happens to Pence, Paul Ryan will become president. If anything happens to Ryan, Orrin Hatch becomes President.  If anything happens to Hatch, Rex Tillerson becomes president. (from Wikipedia).  Obama is nowhere in the line-up.  It would take a coup or a revolution to put Obama back in office.

While we all dream up what scenarios on what we think eschatology says, the fact is, we don't know how prophecy will unfold.  For example, my favorite "beast/antichrist" is radical Islam; but I could be wrong.  I believe prophecy (especially eschatology) we written cryptically on purpose by God as to not disclose His plans to rebellious spirits and their human followers.  There was no way the average Israelite or demon could foresee a suffering, dying Messiah until it happened.  I Cor 2:7-9 says:

"No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. ⁹ However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
    the things God has prepared for those who love him—"

The "rulers of this age" does not refer to the Romans and Jews, it refers to satan and his demons.  If they knew killing Jesus would ensure His victory and their eternal doom, They would have never spurred the crowd to crucify Christ.  If beings that are orders of magnitude more intelligent than us can't figure it out, do you really think we can?  It's easy to infer from scriptures like Rev. 3:3 that we indeed will not know when and how Jesus comes until it happens:

"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."

The bottom line is that one day sooner or later (sooner I hope) by a way we may or may not have conceived, Jesus will return to redeem his chosen and elect; and the Israelite Davidic Kingdom - with Jesus on the throne - will rule from Jerusalem.

[CoAspen]

What was really being talked about....Get over It!

They are a truck load of sites using his words to form conspiracies about his over turning Trump, not exactly unusual as they have many other conspiracies as well posted.

Blogs and opinions masquerading as NEWS...Trump was right, fake news! How ironic!!

[hch]

10 hours ago, CoAspen said:

What was really being talked about....Get over It!

They are a truck load of sites using his words to form conspiracies about his over turning Trump, not exactly unusual as they have many other conspiracies as well posted.

Blogs and opinions masquerading as NEWS...Trump was right, fake news! How ironic!!

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This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. Daniel 4:17

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know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.Daniel 4:25

 

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know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. Daniel 4:32

God did not put that in His word 3 times because He had nothing better to say.

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 Some prophecies God has repeated, thus showing that importance must be given to them. The Lord does not repeat things that are of no great consequence.--  {8MR 413.2}

  My Bible tells me that President Obama is identified as America's last President in prophecy. But by sight Donald Trump is in office. But I cannot safely go by sight. God calls me to go forward by faith in His sure word. And His word is not by fake news or speculation. From my current understanding, President Trump cannot remain in office past 28 March 2017. I cannot see Christ Coming before that date because the Time of Trouble has not been magnified as it will be before Christ Comes. Thus I suspect the unexpected to take the world by surprise. 

Though the prophecy did not get fulfilled as I had thought to keep Obama in office, I cannot say that God will not find a way to put him back in office. The war with Iran that I expected before 1/20/2017 to keep Obama in office did not happen. So it will likely be before 28 March 2017 and that may be what brings Obama back into office. But I am content to know where we are in Bible prophecy and allow the Lord to work out the details as He sees best. I have His word on it! (Daniel 4:17, 25, 32)

Satan would have us to rest in our comfort zone until Christ finishes His work in Heaven's Sanctuary. When it is too late to undo our unbelief and too late to study to show ourselves approved of God, then the devil will let us wake up to the fact that we have deceived ourselves and are not ready to meet Jesus. Those of us who find ourselves in that condition will be overcome with remorse. I pray that you are not among the deceived. But one of us has to be wrong. We both cannot be right if our understanding of Bible prophecy is so different.

Today you think that I have been deceived to believe what I read in the Bible that you do not see in its holy pages. But when God's word is fulfilled as it will be and we can see what our faith now tells us, we will better know which class we have chosen to be in. 

I'm praying for the both of us.

 

 

 

[hch]

I can concede that Obama does not have to come back into office (though it makes sense that he will) Because the prophecy has brought us up to the point in time when the Mark of the Beast is upon us and he fits it perfectly.

Trump is doing some very unconventional things that are changing the status quo. While Obama was in office, he had a do not rock the boat methodology. He was steady and methodical, but he did not antagonize folks to the point that they organized marches and mass protests. His current approval rating is almost double that President Trump, who comes across as being brash. And President Trump is a polarizing figure. And we have to remember that many Great civilizations crumbled around 240 years into their existence. Is it not time for America as we know it to yield her glory?  

[Samie]

53 minutes ago, hch said:

know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. Daniel 4:17, 25, 32

And in the US, God took the kingdom from Obama and gave it to Trump, didn't He?

[hch]

4 minutes ago, Samie said:

And in the US, God took the kingdom from Obama and gave it to Trump, didn't He?

By sight, it would appear so. But by Faith Babylon had three rulers the night it fell. The last 3 American Presidents are Bush II, Obama, and Trump. As Daniel was the third ruler of ancient Babylon for a  brief time, Trump may last until 28 March 2017 (though he might not last past 10 March 2017) So I can only wait and watch and pray that God finds me faithful to the understanding thatd He has blessed me with thus far.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

And in the US, God took the kingdom from Obama and gave it to Trump, didn't He?

53 minutes ago, hch said:

By sight, it would appear so.

So, you still believe Trump was not given the kingdom yet?

[hch]

On 2/12/2017 at 9:22 AM, Samie said:

So, you still believe Trump was not given the kingdom yet?

I learned something new today. 

I have known for some time that The final 70 weeks (Daniel 9) allotted to America of the 490 weeks in the end time END on 10 March 2017, but I had not considered the significance of that. In the original 490 week/year prophecy the stoning of Stephen sealed the fate of the Jews as America's fate will be sealed on 10 March 2017. Or will it be the fate of the SDA Church? I do not know. But we have a more sure word of prophecy and do well to heed it as best as we understand it until more light comes.

Likewise I knew that as it was in the days of Noah correlates with our day. Noah went into the ark. 7 days later the rain began. 40 days later it stopped. President Trump was inaugurated 1/20/2017. 7 days later is 1/27/2017. 40 days later is  3/8/2017 (two days before the time allotted to US ends). 

For some this tidbit will be a blessing. For others just Babbling. Study to show yourselves approved of God because we are in the final sealing time and Judgment will begin at the House of God.

[Gregory Matthews]

God's word is sure and certain.  Your word is not, and neither is mine.  We are both human and subject to misunderstanding as to what the Bible says.

 

 

[hch]

On 2/12/2017 at 9:22 AM, Samie said:

So, you still believe Trump was not given the kingdom yet?

We do not know what Obama may have put into his executive orders or other executive actions before he left office that President Trump continued until further review. There could be a Trojan mechanism that Trump has made law that he is unaware of. And it could be crafted in such a way that when he finds it, he will not be able to undo it instantly.

I do know that in Noah's day the unbelievers said that it could not rain. It rained and washed them away. So those who say that Obama cannot return to office because the Constitution forbids it don't know the power of God and have not learned much from the way it was in Noah's Day.

I do know that my study of Daniel and Revelation both stop at Obama. Now if Trump is a continuation of Obama in some way, I have not found it. I can see how Trump will be allowed to have his time in the spotlight until 10 March 2017 or even 28 March 2017; BUT not after that unless he incorporates Obama into his Presidency in some way.

Daniel 8 in particular shows that the horns on the ram were Bush I and II. The greater (Bush II) came up last. The horns on the he/she goat were Clinton (the broken horn) and Obama (the one that MAGNIFIES HIMSELF). The 4 notable ones were the 4 Joint Chiefs of staff and "out of one of them" refers to Colin Powell. He was the one that accelerated Bush II into the Oval Office. And  he was the one that accelerated Obama into the Oval Office. But he did not accelerate Trump into the Oval Office.

Where I read the prophecy to say that the Iran-US war would keep Obama in office, it is clear that that was a misreading. But Daniel 11 says that the King of the North (USA) will return against the king of the south (Iran). Trump cannot return since he has never gone against them. But as I currently read it, Obama can return against Iran. And Trump is steering the US on a collision course toward war with Iran.

Habakkuk tells us that the prophecy will be fulfilled at the appointed time and to wait for it. So we can strengthen our union with Christ, study while our Bibles are handy, and pray for the Holy Spirit to seal us before it is too late.

[hch]

On 2/18/2017 at 6:20 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

God's word is sure and certain.  Your word is not, and neither is mine.  We are both human and subject to misunderstanding as to what the Bible says.

Gregory,

That is true. Pending prophecy is especially difficult to explain before it happens. We can look at 1843 & 1844 TO MAKE THAT POINT. But those who were prayerfully studying then (even though they were not 100% correct in their understanding before the fact) were the ones who finally got it right when it came about. This is most likely part of the shaking process. Those who prayerfully study God's word go through the trials of near misses and those who discount the efforts of the Bible students have their hearts so conditioned, that when the prophecy happens, the non Bible students won't see the fulfillment then either.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH said below:

HCH, your have either never read the Federal Constitution, or you have failed to understand it.  The bottom line is: What you stated below is false.  The Federal Constitution does NOT forbid what you say it forbids.  There are multiple methods by which former President Obama could become President again.  Are they likely to happen?  No.  But, they are possible.  The Federal Constitution would allow it.

So those who say that Obama cannot return to office because the Constitution forbids it don't know the power of God and have not learned much from the way it was in Noah's Day.

[hch]

59 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

HCH said below:

HCH, your have either never read the Federal Constitution, or you have failed to understand it.  The bottom line is: What you stated below is false.  The Federal Constitution does NOT forbid what you say it forbids.  There are multiple methods by which former President Obama could become President again.  Are they likely to happen?  No.  But, they are possible.  The Federal Constitution would allow it.

 

Gregory It is odd for you to be defending my point that President Obama could get back into office. But the 22nd amendment is clear

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 Passed by Congress in 1947, and ratified by the states on February 27, 1951, the Twenty-Second Amendment limits an elected president to two terms in office, a total of eight years. However, it is possible for an individual to serve up to ten years as president. The amendment specifies that if a vice president or other successor takes over for a president—who, for whatever reason, cannot fulfill the term—and serves two years or less of the former president’s term, the new president may serve for two full four-year terms. If more than two years remain of the term when the successor assumes office, the new president may serve only one additional term. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=constitutional+amendment+limiting+presidential+terms

The oddity would be to have President Obama come back without an election in 2017 since he is not the VP or the Speaker of the House in the line of Presidential succession.  Thus the restriction would not apply to him if he is not an elected President. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Again, I find it of interest that you have cited a secondary source and not the actual 22nd Amendment itself.

The actual 22nd Amendment, as you would know if you had read it, limits some Presidents to one (1) elected term in office and other  Presidents to two (2) elected terms in office.

You are now more correct, when you know acknowledge that the Federal  Constitution provides for the succession of the President without election, which is not as you previously stated it and it was that previous statement that I challenged.  It was that basic, former statement that I challenged, as it was wrong.

I will also point  out  the Federal Constitution provided for the succession of the  President beyond the VP and the Speaker of the House.  So, while, as I stated, it is very unlikely, President Obama could become President again under the Constitution, providing certain other requirements were met, but not now as things stand.

One of the things that could place Obama into a position where he, as a long shot, could become President again, would be for President Trump to place him in the non-elective position as a member of the Cabinet.

 

NOTE:  On this very issue a weekly TV program is being broadcast.  Have you viewed it?

 

 

 

 

[hch]

19 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Again, I find it of interest that you...

NOTE:  On this very issue a weekly TV program is being broadcast.  Have you viewed it?

Not aware of it. 

[hch]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:25 AM, hch said:

We do not know what Obama may have put into his executive orders or other executive actions before he left office that President Trump continued until further review. There could be a Trojan mechanism that Trump has made law that he is unaware of. And it could be crafted in such a way that when he finds it, he will not be able to undo it instantly...

Now we know more. Last Sabbath President Trump reportedly tweeted that President Obama had the phones at Trump Towers bugged before leaving office. And Congressmen are saying that if it happened, and if it were not an illegal act, then Candidate Trump must have been the focus of an investigation of illegal activity.  And President Trump's spokesman has been grilled by CBS reporters. And the facts may be more intricate than my brief summary has stated then. BUT God knows what is happening and why it is as it is.

As the stoning of Stephen marked the end of the 490 years (70 x 7) allotted to the Jews that ended shortly after Christ's Ascension, 11 March 2017 marks the end of the the 490 weeks allotted to apostate Christianity. Thus as I read Bible prophecy, the time for Iran to attack America's fleet in the Persian Gulf (that I expected to keep President Obama in office) will most likely be between 11 March 2017 and 28 March 2017 and I do not expect President Trump to wield the power of the Presidency of the USA after 28 March 2017. For Daniel wrote that "he shall return" that is the king of the North ( America) against the king of the South (Iran).. And President Trump has not moved against Iran in the past so Daniel does not appear to be speaking of Mr. Trump.

 

On the eve of history meeting prophecy, I thank God that His word is sure. Though we may not understand everything that prophecy reveals before it happens, those who study to show themselves approved of God will understand it much better when te prophecies are fulfilled.

 

His child henry 
 

The only man alive who tweeted 8 times during the 14 months before Pope Benedict retired that Benedict would not be pope after the Spring 2013. The only one who has called the 8 November 2016 election for Obama's third term. Can't happen? Will happen!

[Gregory Matthews]

You tell us that you are the only man alive who tweete4d 8 times . . .

To substantiate this, please give us the names of people who so tweeted and the number of times that they so tweeted.

NOTE:  A claim of ignorance does not support what you said.  It simply demonstrates a lack of factual basis.

 

[Samie]

On 18/02/2017 at 3:07 PM, hch said:

I learned something new today. 

I have known for some time that The final 70 weeks (Daniel 9) allotted to America of the 490 weeks in the end time END on 10 March 2017, but I had not considered the significance of that. In the original 490 week/year prophecy the stoning of Stephen sealed the fate of the Jews as America's fate will be sealed on 10 March 2017. Or will it be the fate of the SDA Church? I do not know. But we have a more sure word of prophecy and do well to heed it as best as we understand it until more light comes.

Likewise I knew that as it was in the days of Noah correlates with our day. Noah went into the ark. 7 days later the rain began. 40 days later it stopped. President Trump was inaugurated 1/20/2017. 7 days later is 1/27/2017. 40 days later is  3/8/2017 (two days before the time allotted to US ends). 

The time allotted to the US now ends.  May I ask what's next, henry?

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, hch said:

As the stoning of Stephen marked the end of the 490 years (70 x 7) allotted to the Jews that ended shortly after Christ's Ascension ...

This is an assumption based on a preterist/historical view of prophecy - not a fact.  It leads to supersessionism ("replacement theology") and persecution of Israel justified by divine abandonment.  Another assumption is the futurist view of prophecy in which the 70th week is separated from the previous 69 weeks; and refers to the 7 year tribulation (the last 3-1/2 years being the time of Jacob's trouble or "Great Tribulation")  which will begin upon identification of the AntiChrist (which has not yet occurred.)

How does one justify the assumption that America and its presidents are the centerpiece of Daniel's and John's prophecies when the rest of the Bible is almost exclusively Israel-centric; and no one at the time of the writing of these books had a clue that America even existed?  To me it is obvious that Daniel's and John's prophecies relate primarily to the Middle East and secondarily (at best) to the rest of the world.

[Samie]

Here's an alternative chart of the last day events:

I'll try my best to, based on Scriptures, address any objection against what are shown in the above chart.

[JoeMo]

Any dispute I would have on the above chart would be trivial.  To me, one can never truly know how prophecy will unfold until it unfolds.  IMHO, the day of Jacob's distress as outlined in Jer. 30 will be the 1,260 days.  Also, I believe the church will be raptured/translated (or otherwise protected) prior to the pouring out of the 7 last plagues.  At any rate, this beats Obummer becoming president again by the end of March.

[Samie]

43 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Also, I believe the church will be raptured/translated (or otherwise protected) prior to the pouring out of the 7 last plagues.

Here's my take on the timing of the 7 last plagues: