Are the three Angels' Messages Dead or Alive?

[hch]

RIP

[Dr. Waite]

The "God" in the First Angel's Message has changed from what the pioneers of the SDA Church believed and taught to different god.

The pioneers defined "God" as "That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7."

Since 1980, "God" has been defined as " There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation." 

 

[hch]

1 hour ago, Dr. Waite said:

The "God" in the First Angel's Message has changed from what the pioneers of the SDA Church believed and taught to different god.

The pioneers defined "God" as "That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7."

Since 1980, "God" has been defined as " There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation." 

 

The Bible reveals what we need to know when we need to know it.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:1-3)

"Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" (Rev 14:7).

[Dr. Waite]

1 hour ago, hch said:

The Bible reveals what we need to know when we need to know it.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:1-3)

"Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" (Rev 14:7).

If the "us" is "three co-eternal persons".  What is the "image" of the holy spirit?  Have you seen that image? Are you made in that image?

[Kevin H]

Dr. Waite: First among the pioneers, even though the trinity was not believed by many of them, it was still an alternative belief that our members could believe, we did not like with our cousin religions make the non-trinity view a part of our doctrines. Second our focus on the 3 angel's messages lead us to the trinity. There are a number of 3s that fit together in this doctrine, and they all deal with: The 3 aspects of the trinity, The 3 parts of Exodus 20, the 3 deceptions of Satan, the 3 beasts in Revelation 12 and 13 (the aspects of the trinity except they are independent of each other and only cooperate to their mutual benefit) and how they are answered by the 3 angels messages which causes the 144000 to be able to stand the great day of his coming.

[Kevin H]

2 hours ago, Dr. Waite said:

If the "us" is "three co-eternal persons".  What is the "image" of the holy spirit?  Have you seen that image? Are you made in that image?

Yes, we are made in that image. First of all we need to clear our mind the western Catholic view of the trinity as being all there is to God, the 3 leaves of the clover, the 3 strands of a rope idea. We need to go back to the Second Temple Jewish understanding of the trinity which retained reflections in some of the theories of the Trinity held among the Eastern Orthodox.

God is a oneness of opposites: Among these are infinite/finite, impersonal/personal, objective/subjective. The trinity is nothing more than the 3 aspects of God manifested with in time and space. It is like if we live in a glass of water which is time and space and a being outside of that glass put in 3 fingers to be able to communicate with what is inside the glass. Or a huge mountain that goes into the thick clouds and you cannot see what's above the clouds, you and only realize the mountain by what you can experience below the clouds and we find 3 ridges. Our pioneers who rejected the trinity believed half the truth and our pioneers who were Trinitarian probably held to the more traditional western view which is again only half the truth.

The 3 manifestations with in time and space are briefly: God as greater than us bigger than us, all powerful, the one angels must veil their wings, the great unapproachable light, the deep darkness; the one we see represented in the first third (consisting of 3 commandments in Exodus 20.) Next we have God as one of us, God personal who we can come to as a friend. God the son (who is manifested in the Sabbath commandment). And God the Father and God the Son are objective manifestations of God. We are made in their image because we are objective people with a body and things others can look at and see. But we are both objective and subjective. And the Holy Spirit is God as manifesting himself to our subjective.

All three of these are needed, but one or two are necessary but insufficient. It is only as we have the 3 that it is sufficient (notice I did not say complete, if the one infinite God wanted to he could have made many more manifestations, but he shows us what we need to know, which is the trinity.) But if we only look at the 3 manifestations as being God in all totally (as the Western Catholic view does) we are idolaters and worthy of death. How much more idolatry are we if we only pick one aspect. And Satan tends to really want to attack Jesus. If we reject the trinity, in the west we tend to choose God as power as God, or make God the Father God in totally. In eastern religions they tend to focus on God as working with our subjective or making the Holy Spirit God in totality. But you don't really find a culture worshiping Jesus as God in totally.

[Dr. Waite]

Kevin H: You state: " All three of these are needed, but one or two are necessary but insufficient. It is only as we have the 3 that it is sufficient (notice I did not say complete, if the one infinite God wanted to he could have made many more manifestations, but he shows us what we need to know, which is the trinity.) But if we only look at the 3 manifestations as being God in all totally (as the Western Catholic view does) we are idolaters and worthy of death. How much more idolatry are we if we only pick one aspect."

You say that two are necessary but are insufficient. However, Jesus, in John 17:3, stated that only two were necessary knowledge for eternal life.

[hch]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Waite said:

Jesus, in John 17:3, stated that only two were necessary knowledge for eternal life.

" And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent" (John 17:3).

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).

Dr. Waite,

Finite man can but glimpse that which is revealed by the Infinite God. And not everyone is going to see that which has been revealed. 

The topic of the 3 Angels' messages is resting in peace. You may find folks who want to discuss the Trinity if you start a topic on that subject.

 

[Kevin H]

7 hours ago, Dr. Waite said:

Kevin H: You state: " All three of these are needed, but one or two are necessary but insufficient. It is only as we have the 3 that it is sufficient (notice I did not say complete, if the one infinite God wanted to he could have made many more manifestations, but he shows us what we need to know, which is the trinity.) But if we only look at the 3 manifestations as being God in all totally (as the Western Catholic view does) we are idolaters and worthy of death. How much more idolatry are we if we only pick one aspect."

You say that two are necessary but are insufficient. However, Jesus, in John 17:3, stated that only two were necessary knowledge for eternal life.

John 17:3 can only work as we objectively know the two and have the third, the Holy Spirit work with the subjective aspects inside ourselves to understand the two objective revelations. Thus the 3 are still working together.

[Jeannieb43]

The best sermon I've heard recently on the three angels' messages (in Rev. 13 & 14) is one by Dwight Nelson from 2012.   Just prior to that year's U.S. presidential election, he likened that time period [the U.S.Presidential election] to the rising of the beast out of the ocean.    Now, in this 2016 presidential election, there's one demagogue attempting to become our new president; the prophecies of Rev. 13 and 14 as pointed out by Dwight Nelson make the "time of the end" only too real for me.  I can picture the USA becoming the Beast referred to in those chapters, and instituting persecution of the followers of God.

I found that sermon, totally by accident, when Googling Dwight Nelson.   I can't recall the sermon title, but it had a youtube.com cite there in the Google reference.   And I watched it to the very end, transfixed by the Revelation and other references he quoted.

 

[hch]

4 hours ago, Jeannieb43 said:

The best sermon I've heard recently on the three angels' messages (in Rev. 13 & 14) is one by Dwight Nelson from 2012.  

I wonder if Dwight has kept up to date? If he is waiting and watching or if he's just rehashing the messages that he learned in seminary?

[Kevin H]

9 hours ago, hch said:

I wonder if Dwight has kept up to date? If he is waiting and watching or if he's just rehashing the messages that he learned in seminary?

When I was a student at the seminary Dwight had just taken over. His sermons were very entertaining and dynamic but not much information. He use to say a lot "Look to Jesus, look to Jesus, look to Jesus" but no showing of Jesus, you left rarely knowing more about the Bible then when you came in. (there were a couple of exceptions: a sermon on 5 kernels of corn, and another sermon pointed out that the 2 disciples on the road to Emmaus was a husband and wife.) but otherwise they were entertaining but empty milquetoast. I'd feel hungry after his sermons. I could not help but contrast his sermons in comparison to what I heard from some of my professors and authors that I read (such as Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel who did not need to say "Look to Jesus" but who takes and shows you Jesus and you can not help but to see Jesus in his messages.) He kept making me think of a sermon I heard from a Methodist minister Wayne Plumstead in his sermon about sermons. He told a story about when he was in seminary he went to preach in a church. When he got to the pulpit he saw that there was a little 3x5 index card taped to the inside where only the speaker could read it. It said "Sir show us Jesus" and Plumstead remembered thinking "Too late, I already wrote the sermon." and how there after he tried to show people Jesus in his sermons.

In the years since Dwight Nelson's sermons have changed and have become much more Biblical, a much more showing Jesus and giving us some meat to think on which has been replacing the entertaining milquetoast that he started out doing. So yes he had definitely been growing. 

[hch]

6 hours ago, Kevin H said:

In the years since Dwight Nelson's sermons have changed and have become much more Biblical, a much more showing Jesus and giving us some meat to think on which has been replacing the entertaining milquetoast that he started out doing. So yes he had definitely been growing. 

Kevin,

Thanks that was insightful. I cannot imagine the 3 angels' messages being boring or putting anyone to sleep. But I routinely fall asleep listening to B, B, and other SDA evangelists on the computer. How can such an important message be entrusted to us frail mortals?

 

[Jeannieb43]

This one (posted on YouTube in 2012) is powerful.   Riveting.   Scriptural.  I'll be watching it again soon, actually.

 

 

[phkrause]

Excellent posts JeannieB43! I have been watching DN on 3ABN, etc., for many years and his sermons have never been boring! Neither has any other evangelist I've heard/watched on TV, 3ABN, Amazing Facts, etc., for the past 10/15 years! I could actually go back 40-50 years and include my pastor in NYC, Dr J.M. Hoffman who used to do evangelistic meetings for Jews back than. I learned much from him, and what I hear from today's pastors like Nelson, Bohr, Findley, Boonstra, etc., hasn't really changed much, but the meat has!! Especially the Jewish pastors we have in the church who have a much better understanding of the Hebrew Bible and the language and what the prophets and the disciples were trying to present to the people than and to us here in the end times.

[hch]

Do we need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to understand the three angels' messages?

I know we do to understand Bible prophecy.

#gogo_MO As I read Daniel 11:37 Obama won't regard "the desire of women." Is something going to happen to MO? Pray 4 her 2 have a safe trip.

I've always put that in context of a woman being a church. But perhaps it is literal?

[LifeHiscost]

On 4/23/2016 at 3:33 AM, hch said:

 

If they are dead, they are irrelevant today. If they are alive, they must be relevant.

 

Perhaps this might make them more relevant, although it's more about which side we're on.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!      

[BobRyan]

On 4/23/2016 at 6:33 AM, hch said:

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If they are dead, they are irrelevant today. If they are alive, they must be relevant.

 

The SDA church still functions - and has grown to be the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world  according to Christianity Today --

That is the advancement of the Three Angel's Message - so "yes" it is still alive. Sorta like Noah's message was "still alive" to the very end - even though only 8 people went in -- only "better"!!

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/8/2016 at 11:39 AM, Kevin H said:

John 17:3 can only work as we objectively know the two and have the third, the Holy Spirit work with the subjective aspects inside ourselves to understand the two objective revelations. Thus the 3 are still working together.

The SDA Church, with quotes from Mrs White after 1896, turned "the Spirit of Christ" into "the third person of the Godhead".  They do not realize they have set up another god.  I took me 4 years of solid study before I was forced to concede that I too, had believed a lie.

John heard every being saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!"    The FATHER sits on the throne, and the Lamb is JESUS.  They are the ONLY TWO who are worshiped in Scripture.  The spirit is not praised, thanked, worshiped, glorified, or prayed to - in Scripture.

Here's a link to Part One of a series on this topic at my website:   http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/44a-Part 1 TR-Intro.pdf

My studies are 100% based in Scripture.  I do not quote from EGW.  I do not feel that we can site Mrs White to convince the undecided in the last days.

This topic is relevant to the messages of the three angels, because one must know WHO "God" is. 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory-Kuehl

[8thdaypriest]

Why would the messages of the three angels no longer be "relevant" today?  Of course they are relevant!  The BEAST has not yet come to rule the entire world.  The "mark" is not yet required - worldwide.  The "image of the Beast" does not yet stand "in the holy place" [The Temple Mount]. 

Maybe you are saying that the SDA version of these messages - identifying the Roman Catholic Church as "Little Horn"and the "mark of the Beast" as Sunday worship - maybe THAT teaching is "obsolete".

That remains to be seen.  We have not yet entered the very last days.  The very last days will be the 1260 days during which the Little Horn will persecute "the saints" worldwide.

The message of the angel is "The hour of His judgment has come".  In Daniel 7:9-10, the heavenly "court" sits as the Beast is persecuting the saints on earth, through it's "little horn".  

The Little Horn will persecute the saints for 1260 days (42 months, 3.5 years) leading UP TO the "judgment" of the Court, in favor of the saints, and "THE TIME CAME FOR THE SAINTS TO POSSESS THE KINGDOM".  The saints did not take possession of the kingdom in 1798 when Napoleon captured the Pope.  They will take possession of the kingdom, when their KING takes possession.  That will come at the 7th trumpet. 

When the 7th trumpet sounds, (Rev. 11:15)  all heaven celebrates because "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ".  Christ will then EXECUTE the judgment handed down by the "court".  He will destroy the Beast and the False Prophet and all their followers.  He will reward His saints. He will throw Satan into "the pit".

Much as I disagree with Roman Catholic doctrine (basically baptized paganism.),  I am not comfortable pointing to the RCC as THE "Little Horn" of Revelation.  Not yet anyway.  Islam has persecuted Christian believers every bit as severely as the RCC persecuted.  A Temple of Islam now stands "in the holy place". 

The SDA pioneers believed "the hour of His judgment" HAD COME, because they believed that Jesus entered the MHP of Heaven on October 22, 1844.  For the SDA pioneers repeating the messages of the 3 angels, was their MISSION and the reason for the existence of their movement.  I personally believe they were WRONG.  That message is not just obsolete - it was never truth.

Mrs White wrote that she was "shown" what happened in Heaven on October 22, 1844.  She "saw" Christ standing before the Ark, and wrote that this fulfilled the Day of Atonement prophecy.  But she described Jesus dressed in the DAILY garb, with blue ephod, breastplate, miter, bells and pomegranates.  This was the WRONG ATTIRE for the MHP on the Day of Atonement.  The High Priest was to wear only 5 pieces of plain white linen, when entering the MHP on that day (Leviticus Cpt 16).  She "saw" the WRONG clothing, because that was the only clothing she was aware of, for the High Priest. 

I did not start this thread, but I must say what I believe. 

Rachel Cory-Kuehl,  prophecyviewpoint.com

[hch]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 0:20 PM, BobRyan said:

The SDA church still functions - and has grown to be the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world  according to Christianity Today --

That is the advancement of the Three Angel's Message - so "yes" it is still alive. Sorta like Noah's message was "still alive" to the very end - even though only 8 people went in -- only "better"!!

Bob,

I appreciate the math, but the Jewish religion was the largest God fearing denomination when Christ came to earth and the size of their congregations did not help them an iota.

If the three angels messages are not understood correctly on the eve of Christ's Advent, will it help to get the would be saints ready for Heaven? or would it just make more misguided virgins that are ill-prepared for Heaven (more ready to miss the Bridegroom's coming than not)?

The more I study the three angels messages, the more I fear that the brethren and sisters are unaware of their true meaning.

Christian regards

His child 

[hch]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The SDA Church, with quotes from Mrs White after 1896, turned "the Spirit of Christ" into "the third person of the Godhead".  They do not realize they have set up another god.  I took me 4 years of solid study before I was forced to concede that I too, had believed a lie.

John heard every being saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!"    The FATHER sits on the throne, and the Lamb is JESUS.  They are the ONLY TWO who are worshiped in Scripture.  The spirit is not praised, thanked, worshiped, glorified, or prayed to - in Scripture.

Here's a link to Part One of a series on this topic at my website:   http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/44a-Part 1 TR-Intro.pdf

My studies are 100% based in Scripture.  I do not quote from EGW.  I do not feel that we can site Mrs White to convince the undecided in the last days.

This topic is relevant to the messages of the three angels, because one must know WHO "God" is. 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory-Kuehl

Rachel,

perhaps you would like to start a thread that focuses on these topics that you have mentioned?

1) the third Person of the Godhead

2) the place of EG White's writings in Bible study (or the lack thereof)?

A young theologian from University of Tennessee at Chattanooga once told me that Anyone who studies the history of religion in America will encounter EG White.

Christian regards

His child

[hch]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Why would the messages of the three angels no longer be "relevant" today?  Of course they are relevant!  The BEAST has not yet come to rule the entire world.  The "mark" is not yet required - worldwide.  The "image of the Beast" does not yet stand "in the holy place" [The Temple Mount]. . .

Rachel Cory-Kuehl,  prophecyviewpoint.com

Rachel,

Rather than get into a lengthy discussion regarding all of the points raised in your post, I chose to focus on the first paragraph: "Of course they are relevant!  The BEAST has not yet come to rule the entire world. "-- Is that a fact or speculation?

"The "mark" is not yet required - worldwide."-- I will agree that the beast has not made his mark universal yet.

"The "image of the Beast" does not yet stand "in the holy place" [The Temple Mount]. . ." 2 different ideas combined into one sentence-- 1)The "image of the Beast" does not yet stand "in the holy place"-- True or FALSE?

2)The holy place has something to do with The Temple Mount-- True or FALSE?

They are your ideas as you relate them to the 3 angels' messages. Feel free to connect the dots.

But please Keep it simple saints.

Christian regards

His child

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, hch said:

Rather than get into a lengthy discussion regarding all of the points raised in your post, I chose to focus on the first paragraph: "Of course they are relevant!  The BEAST has not yet come to rule the entire world. "-- Is that a fact or speculation?

In my humble opinion, that is a rock-solid fact.  Many OT prophecies point to the establishment of Israel an a nation prior to the reign of the antichrist and the return of Jesus.  Israel had not existed as an independent nation until 1948 since the the Babylonian exile.  Even if you want to propose that Israel was somehow "restored" upon the return from Babylon, one could hardly call it "a gathering from all nations".  God has a plan.  When the Beast rules for his 1260 days and absolutely devastates Jerusalem - the chief city of God's Chosen people,  we will definitely know the beast is in control.  And what world relogious/political power is hell-bent (literally) on the obliteration of the nation of God's Chosen People?  Radical Islam - including the most powerful sovereign power in the Middle-East - Iran.

I also agree with Rachel that the 3 angels message is absolutely relevant or it wouldn't be in the Bible.  It just may not be the message that traditional Adventism believes it to be; and that we have no right to isolate the RCC as the only candidate for the Beast power. Current day Islam increasingly shows itself to be way scarier than current day Catholics.

[hch]

13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

In my humble opinion, that is a rock-solid fact.  Many OT prophecies point to the establishment of Israel an a nation prior to the reign of the antichrist and the return of Jesus.  Israel had not existed as an independent nation until 1948 since the the Babylonian exile.  Even if you want to propose that Israel was somehow "restored" upon the return from Babylon, one could hardly call it "a gathering from all nations".  God has a plan.  When the Beast rules for his 1260 days and absolutely devastates Jerusalem - the chief city of God's Chosen people,  we will definitely know the beast is in control.  And what world relogious/political power is hell-bent (literally) on the obliteration of the nation of God's Chosen People?  Radical Islam - including the most powerful sovereign power in the Middle-East - Iran.

I also agree with Rachel that the 3 angels message is absolutely relevant or it wouldn't be in the Bible.  It just may not be the message that traditional Adventism believes it to be; and that we have no right to isolate the RCC as the only candidate for the Beast power. Current day Islam increasingly shows itself to be way scarier than current day Catholics.

JoeMoe,

Good to hear from you as always.

My extensive study of Daniel and Revelation draws a very different conclusion than you are presenting.

According to Daniel 11, Israel was reestablished in 1948.

The antichrist will focus on God's chosen people not those who rejected God and Christ 2100-years ago, but living CHRISTIANS.

And the three angels' messages are not important in the context of their first proclamation in 1844. BUT the three angels' messages are vitally important in the context of their proclamation in 2013 and beyond: 2) Babylon is fallen come out of her 1) she has been judged for her fornication [that correlates with ten ending f the time allotted for the judgment of the living] 3) Don't take the mark of the beast when President Obama implements it. 

Christian regards,

His child