Are the three Angels' Messages Dead or Alive?

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, hch said:

Rachel,

perhaps you would like to start a thread that focuses on these topics that you have mentioned?

1) the third Person of the Godhead

2) the place of EG White's writings in Bible study (or the lack thereof)?

A young theologian from University of Tennessee at Chattanooga once told me that Anyone who studies the history of religion in America will encounter EG White.

Christian regards

His child

I have participated in several threads on this Theological Forum, on the nature of the holy spirit.  I do not feel a need presently - to start yet another thread on this topic. 

The place of EGW writings in the study of the Bible has also been debated at length. 

You might want to do a search of the CA website, through old threads on these topics. 

[8thdaypriest]

12 minutes ago, hch said:

JoeMoe,

Good to hear from you as always.

My extensive study of Daniel and Revelation draws a very different conclusion than you are presenting.

According to Daniel 11, Israel was reestablished in 1948.

The antichrist will focus on God's chosen people not those who rejected God and Christ 2100-years ago, but living CHRISTIANS.

And the three angels' messages are not important in the context of their first proclamation in 1844. BUT the three angels' messages are vitally important in the context of their proclamation in 2013 and beyond: 2) Babylon is fallen come out of her 1) she has been judged for her fornication [that correlates with ten ending f the time allotted for the judgment of the living] 3) Don't take the mark of the beast when President Obama implements it. 

Christian regards,

His child

 

President Obama will implement the mark of the Beast???  That would make him "the little horn".  Not very likely.  Not impossible.  Who knows what roles he will assume after he leaves office in six months.  

The nation of Israel - as a nation - observes the 7th day Sabbath.  If the MARK of the Beast power is Sunday worship observance, then it seems possible all Sabbath keepers will be caught up in the same net. 

My current thinking on "the mark" is an identifier with six digits, six digits, six digits.  Example:  123456-789012-345678 

This would be "the number of a man" (Rev. 13 18).  Using 18 digits, it would be possible to identify every human being on the planet.  Chip technology would allow implantation or a tattoo.  Just as with our present credit cards (4 x 4 digits) one must agree to certain TERMS when activating the number.  Those activating their "number of the Beast" account, would be required to agree to the terms.  The terms, of course, would include complete loyalty to and service of, the Beast system. 

And - if your number is deactivated (or never activated) you "cannot buy or sell". 

The world - I believe - will soon convert to electronic "money".  The governments of all nations want to track all transactions.  They want to TAX them.  They will use the excuse that it will be easier to catch criminals, and it will prevent theft of cash.  In order to USE electronic money, one will need an identifier number. 

[hch]

7 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

President Obama will implement the mark of the Beast???  That would make him "the little horn".  Not very likely.  Not impossible.  Who knows what roles he will assume after he leaves office in six months.  

Rachel, will try to answer briefly have apt in a few min

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The nation of Israel - as a nation - observes the 7th day Sabbath.  If the MARK of the Beast power is Sunday worship observance, then it seems possible all Sabbath keepers will be caught up in the same net. 

 

Form of godliness but denying Spirit

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My current thinking on "the mark" is an identifier with six digits, six digits, six digits.  Example:  123456-789012-345678 

 

Revelation reveals that it is President Obama's #

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This would be "the number of a man" (Rev. 13 18).  Using 18 digits, it would be possible to identify every human being on the planet.  Chip technology would allow implantation or a tattoo.  Just as with our present credit cards (4 x 4 digits) one must agree to certain TERMS when activating the number.  Those activating their "number of the Beast" account, would be required to agree to the terms.  The terms, of course, would include complete loyalty to and service of, the Beast system. 

 

MOB would not be possible without computers
 

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And - if your number is deactivated (or never activated) you "cannot buy or sell". 

The world - I believe - will soon convert to electronic "money".  The governments of all nations want to track all transactions.  They want to TAX them.  They will use the excuse that it will be easier to catch criminals, and it will prevent theft of cash.  In order to USE electronic money, one will need an identifier number. 

 

Obamacare is a step in that direction. Compulsory for ALL Americans

Christian regards

His Child

[8thdaypriest]

Pharaoh gradually gained CONTROL over Egypt (and the Israelites).  He had all the FOOD.  The people paid money, then sold their goods, then sold their land, then sold themselves - in order to stay alive. 

Dependence upon government is the MEANS whereby the government gains CONTROL.  Universal healthcare is just one such means.  All plans which end in government dependence - give CONTROL to the government. 

[Martn]

 

The three angels' message (one message, three-four messengers) is so very much more than conventional SDA thinking will allow its people to see.

The glory of the message is so bright it hurts their eyes. It pains them, so they do not want to see it.

No amount of evidence will ever convince them, therefore. We cannot shine new light in old lenses (put new wine in old bottles) without cracking them.

It is enough for those who see the light to say what they see. And don't worry about the many who scoff at what is said.

Await the few who also see, uniting as they hear others say the same. Flow together, and then the movement will attract interest.

The message is about God. The true nature of God. Versus idolatrous concepts of God, like the trinity and twinity popular among Adventists today.

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Martin,

Twinity - I like that!  I must be a twinitarian!  BTW - twinitarianism doesn't seem to be that popular among SDA's these days.  Maybe 1 in 10 is a twinitarian.

I see no problem with accepting Jesus as God.  Jesus says or implies several times that he and the Father are One. He also says "‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.  Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."  (Mark 12: 28-30)  If God can do anything, why can't He be in 2 places at once (i.e., in heaven and on earth)?  Didn't Jesus also say that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father?

[Martn]

21 hours ago, JoeMo said:

twinitarianism doesn't seem to be that popular among SDA's these days.  Maybe 1 in 10 is a twinitarian.

I see no problem with accepting Jesus as God.  Jesus says or implies several times that he and the Father are One.

If God can do anything, why can't He be in 2 places at once 

Didn't Jesus also say that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father?

A minority view among early SDA nontrinitarians, it has become the dominant position among nontrinitarian SDA's today.

Most SDA's (pre-Desire of Ages) believed Jesus was divine in a derivative sense, that his divinity was derived from God. Praying to /worshiping Jesus was therefore frowned upon by most. But a minority (now the majority) still felt this made Jesus worthy of worship, for as it says in Revelation (3:9) we too shall be worshiped.

Jesus is a man filled with the Spirit of God. I agree. The same Divinity can be in us and fill us also, enabling us to do even greater miracles than he did (John 14:12).

We too can "be filled with all the fulness God" (Ephesians 3:19).

But, this Divinity in us does not make us actually God.

Yes, sometimes even the people of God are called IAUA --GOD (Jeremiah 33:16). But they are called God because the Spirit of God is in them, not because they themselves are God.

We are called Gods (John 10:30-36) because God's Spirit is in us. Not because we ourselves are God.

For we too can be one with the Father, and with one another, just as Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30-36 & 17:21-23). By means of the one Spirit (Divinity) which fills us all.

I agree God can be in more than one place at once, for God is everywhere. What doesn't make sense is the idea that God, who is infinite, could ever be finite in form. God can be in the form, can be in things (panentheism), but not the form itself, not the things themselves (pantheism).

Everyone knows about the Kellogg apostasy, but what they don't tell you is that it was his trinitarianism they objected to. They called it pantheism, the idea that being filled with God's Spirit made a thing or person actually God. Trinitarianism, and to a lesser degree twinitarianism, is pantheism.

Neither the Father nor the Son are actually God, therefore. The Spirit (in each of them and each of us) alone is God.

Sins against the Father or the Son can be forgiven. Not sins against the Spirit.

 

[JoeMo]

Martin,

There are several instances in the NT where people worshipped Jesus. There are at least 4 occurrences in Matthew, 1 in Luke, and 1 in John.  In Revelation, it is easy to infer that the 24 elders are worshipping Jesus.  There are no instances in the OT nor NT where people pray to or worship the Spirit. We are warned in scripture to only worship God.  So, either Jesus is God (He accepted the worship) or He is a charlatan.  I believe the former.

[Martn]

People did worship Jesus, but I don't believe he himself ever desired or encouraged such behavior. Quite the contrary (Revelation 22:8-13).

As for worshiping the Spirit, there are numerous examples, mainly in Jewish scripture. Christians of course believe it was the Father who was being worshiped there, an idea not recognized in normative Jewish thought. God is Spirit, Jesus said, sometimes likened to a father (John 17:1-3), and also a mother, though a better word would be parent, beyond gender or form of any kind.

It is very important to understand this because the impostor Jesus --the image of the beast-- is the one who will claim to be God on earth (2 Thessalonians 2:4). Knowing he is not, and cannot possibly be, will be powerful protection against the otherwise overwhelming deception.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Martn said:

People did worship Jesus, but I don't believe he himself ever desired or encouraged such behavior. Quite the contrary (Revelation 22:8-13).

As for worshiping the Spirit, there are numerous examples, mainly in Jewish scripture. Christians of course believe it was the Father who was being worshiped there, an idea not recognized in normative Jewish thought. God is Spirit, Jesus said, sometimes likened to a father (John 17:1-3), and also a mother, though a better word would be parent, beyond gender or form of any kind.

It is very important to understand this because the impostor Jesus --the image of the beast-- is the one who will claim to be God on earth (2 Thessalonians 2:4). Knowing he is not, and cannot possibly be, will be powerful protection against the otherwise overwhelming deception.

Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him." (Heb 1:6 NIV)

If the angels of Heaven worship Jesus, then why wouldn't we humans do so? 

Philippians  2:10-11  “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” 

I don't see any exception here.  EVERY knee is every knee. 

Jesus name is "Mighty God" (Isa. 9:6). 

1 Corinthians 15:47  “The Second Man is the LORD (meaning Yahweh) from heaven.”  

John 20:26-29  Thomas called Christ “My Lord and My God.” (Christ did not correct him.)

[8thdaypriest]

        Revelation 5:13  “And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth . . . I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!’”
     
In the New Testament Scriptures, two divine beings are worshiped - the Father and the Son.  That being said, the Father is ABOVE the Son.  God the Father is the GOD of Christ.  Long after the resurrection, Jesus called Him "my God" (Rev. 3:12).   In the final END the Son will give the kingdom over to His Father, and will Himself be "subject to" His Father (I Cor 15:28). 

The angel's message is: "fear God and give glory to Him (singular)".  In my opinion "God" in this command, refers to God our Father, and to no other. 

Paul said, “There is One God, the Father, of Whom are all things, AND One Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things” (1Corinthians 8:6).  He also wrote, “one God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:6).

 

 

[JoeMo]

In Joel 3:1-3, the prophet quotes God as saying :

“For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, ² I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, ³ and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it."

The Valley of Jehoshaphat stretches from the north to the south between the Temple Mount and the Mount of Olives.  This is precisely the valley Jesus was overlooking while delivering His Olivet discourse.   This is the exact location where Joel says that the judgement of the nations will take place.   In Matthew 25:31-46, while looking down at this valley, Jesus talks of how He Himself will judge the nations; gathering the goats on His left and the sheep on His right.  By "coincidence", the valley of Gehenna, often referred to in scripture as the place of eternal punishment was on Jesus' left.

Could Jesus have been discretely telling his disciples that He was the same God (YHVH) to whom Joel was referring?  If so, Jesus is absolutely God.

[Samie]

KJV Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears

Jesus told His hearers that the part of the Scriptures He had just read in their hearing was fulfilled that same day.  The verses Jesus read were those in Isa 61:1, 2. It appears to me that Jesus was sent by the LORD (YHVH). Hence, for me, YHVH is the Father.

[Martn]

God's Spirit is in him. So he is called God, even IAUA. Not because that is who he himself actually is, but because of the One who is in him.

The same goes for us. We too are called Gods (John 10:30-36 & 17:21-23). God's people are even called IAUA (Jeremiah 33:16). Because God's Spirit is in us. Not because we ourselves actually are God.

Indeed we too are to be "filled with all the fulness God" (Ephesians 3:19). Not just Jesus.

But, that does not make us God.

People did and will worship Jesus. And Jesus will even make people worship us (Revelation 3:9). But we are not God. Such "prostration" (what the word actually means) is not always indicative of deity therefore. Often it merely demonstrates surrender.

Should we accept this worship? I don't think so. Jesus didn't accept it (Revelation 22:8-13), so neither should we.

Let us lift them up, take them in our arms, and forgive. That is what Jesus does. Sister White in vision saw Adam bowing at the feet of Jesus, but Jesus did not accept this, she said. He picked Adam up, embraced him, and forgave.

The idea that being filled with God's Spirit actually makes a thing or person God, is the very definition of pantheism --that which was the alpha of apostasy in early Adventism.

And what will the omega of apostasy be? When Adventists, forgetting their history, and overcome with the glory of an impostor Jesus, actually join the Christian world in worshiping that image of the beast as God on earth. Not one in fifty Adventists will remain faithful.

Two impostors, not just one, will enthrall the world. The beast, impersonating Allah, and the image of the beast, impersonating Jesus. Impersonating both the Father and the Son. A third impostor will join them, impersonating the Spirit, embodied as Mary, the Mother. 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Martn said:

God's Spirit is in him. So he is called God, even IAUA. Not because that is who he himself actually is, but because of the One who is in him.

The same goes for us. We too are called Gods (John 10:30-36 & 17:21-23). God's people are even called IAUA (Jeremiah 33:16). Because God's Spirit is in us. Not because we ourselves actually are God.

Indeed we too are to be "filled with all the fulness God" (Ephesians 3:19). Not just Jesus.

But, that does not make us God.

People did and will worship Jesus. And Jesus will even make people worship us (Revelation 3:9). But we are not God. Such "prostration" (what the word actually means) is not always indicative of deity therefore. Often it merely demonstrates surrender.

Should we accept this worship? I don't think so. Jesus didn't accept it (Revelation 22:8-13), so neither should we.

Let us lift them up, take them in our arms, and forgive. That is what Jesus does. Sister White in vision saw Adam bowing at the feet of Jesus, but Jesus did not accept this, she said. He picked Adam up, embraced him, and forgave.

The idea that being filled with God's Spirit actually makes a thing or person God, is the very definition of pantheism --that which was the alpha of apostasy in early Adventism.

And what will the omega of apostasy be? When Adventists, forgetting their history, and overcome with the glory of an impostor Jesus, actually join the Christian world in worshiping that image of the beast as God on earth. Not one in five Adventists will remain faithful.

Two impostors, not just one, will enthrall the world. The beast, impersonating Allah, and the image of the beast, impersonating Jesus. Impersonating both the Father and the Son. A third impostor will join them, impersonating the Spirit, embodied as Mary, the Mother. 

So - the Father is not "God".  He is simply indwelt by the ONE God - the Spirit.

And Jesus is not "God".  He also is simply indwelt by the Spirit, who is the ONE God. 

Are you a Muslim?

[JoeMo]

22 hours ago, Martn said:

Two impostors, not just one, will enthrall the world. The beast, impersonating Allah, and the image of the beast, impersonating Jesus. Impersonating both the Father and the Son. A third impostor will join them, impersonating the Spirit, embodied as Mary, the Mother. 

I partially agree with you, Martin.  I view things a little differently.  In comparing Islamic eschatology in the Q'ran and Hadiths with that of the Bible, I believe Allah to be the dragon, the Madhi to be the antichrist, and the Islamic Prophet Jesus to be the False Prophet referred to in scripture.  I don't think specifically identifying which character is which is as critical as identifying the end-time beast power - radicalized Islam. Knowing that, it will be fairly easy to determine the specific players when they appear.  I don't think Mary or Catholicism will play a major part in this drama.

Many people will tell you that "Islam" means "peace".  It does not; it means "submission".  What is the difference?  In a literal interpretation of Islamic holy writings, there can only be peace when all are in submission to Allah and Sharia (i.e., complete world domination by Islam).

[Martn]

What I'm foreseeing is an impersonation of the entire Christian trinity, presented in a calculated way so as to appeal to all the major religions in one respect or another.

Although Muslims don't believe Jesus is God, the glory of the deception, paired with an equally glorious impersonation of Allah as God the Father, will nevertheless win most of them over. Furthermore, Muslims are very fond of Mary, almost to the same degree as Catholics, and impersonating her as a glorious embodiment of the Holy Spirit will seal the deal for nearly everyone.

If those who don't believe Jesus is God will be mesmerized by such wonders, how much more so those who do believe he is God. How much more so those who do believe in the trinity or in the twinity.

I agree, Catholicism is not the problem. Mary is the jewel of Catholicism in my opinion. I love her. Her apparitions are genuine. But she is not God, and the Catholics are right about that, in spite of those who would make her a Goddess.

Catholicism per se is not the whore of Babylon, and the Papacy is not the beast. That is impossible, given the plain words of Jesus in Matthew 16:18.

The whore, I believe, represents apostate Christians, as a whole. Not a denomination or group of denominations. There is this belief, even in official Catholic circles, that Catholicism will temporarily be taken over by apostates in the end.

We saw the beginnings, under Hitler and the Nazis, of what this will look like. Hitler was a Roman Catholic, and never repudiated it, yet he persecuted Roman Catholics for the most part and had millions of them slaughtered right along with the Jews.

And what did Seventh-day Adventists in Germany do? Nearly all of them sided with Hitler, against the Catholics and the Jews, and of course against Seventh-day Adventists everywhere else. We will see something like this again, on a global scale, for Fascism again is on the rise.

People don't see this because they don't remember what Fascism actually is. Most (modern) dictionaries, not surprisingly, no longer accurately define the term. But we need only read the writings of Hitler and Mussolini to know how they themselves defined it.

Fascism, according to both Hitler and Mussolini, is the union of government and business corporations. According to Mussolini, Fascism is more accurately called Corporatism. It is when business corporations are officially put in charge of national governments.

The opposite of Communism, where government controls business, Fascism is where business controls government.

This in fact is what the beast is. In its final incarnation, the beast is global Fascism.

Its deadly wound is being healed. The head (Nazi Germany) which was wounded to death is being revived, and this time it will rule the world.

Who, above all else, were its allies in the Middle East? The Muslims, of course.

The Muslims sided with Hitler, and they have never stopped being his allies.

But there is another beast, who rises from the earth (America). With all the power and authority of the first beast who rose from the sea (Europe).

A lamb-like (Christ-like) beast, with two horns, the rulers of Canada and America. Only one nation on earth has ever brought fire (nuclear fire) down from above in the sight of men. By this modern marvel of science, America holds the world in check.

This nation, in coalition with other world leaders, is the one who will give life to the image of the beast, the impostor Jesus, causing all to worship him.

This will in fact not be a supernatural event. Though it will be made to appear so, with all the wonders of modern science and secret holographic technology at its disposal.

 

 

[Martn]

18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Are you a Muslim?

For Muslims, God is entirely other, entirely outside and beyond.

Muslims therefore, ordinarily, don't believe God indwells all things (panentheism).

Panentheism is not a Muslim idea, Hindu idea, Buddhist idea, or even ordinarily a Christian idea.

Hindus believe God is all there is and that all therefore is God.

God, they say, is not merely in things (panentheism), but is the thing itself (pantheism).

Buddhists of course don't even conceive there is a God.

Christians believe God's Spirit dwells in us, or some of us, but not that God's own Self indwells us.

This is a Jewish idea.

I am a Jew.

[Robert]

12 minutes ago, Martn said:

Christians believe God's Spirit dwells in us, or some of us, but not that God's own Self indwells us.

"God is Spirit"...."God is [agape]"....Yes, God dwells in the believer's inner mind (i.e., his/her spirit).

 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Martn said:

This is a Jewish idea.

I am a Jew.

Thank you.  Your responses make more sense now.

[JoeMo]

What particular sect of Judaism do you come from?  I have several Jewish acquaintances spanning the spectrum from very traditional to atheist to messianic; and none of them speak like you do.

BTW, I am currently of the opinion that the nations of Israel and Judah are still God's chosen people; and that when Yeshua Messiach returns to us, a remnant of those nations will believe and be saved and will share rulership of the planet with Jesus - the King of the Jews.  Jews are the root; us Gentile believers are wild branches grafted into the root.  The root is there to support the branches; not the other way around. 

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, JoeMo said:

What particular sect of Judaism do you come from?  I have several Jewish acquaintances spanning the spectrum from very traditional to atheist to messianic; and none of them speak like you do.

BTW, I am currently of the opinion that the nations of Israel and Judah are still God's chosen people; and that when Yeshua Messiach returns to us, a remnant of those nations will believe and be saved and will share rulership of the planet with Jesus - the King of the Jews.  Jews are the root; us Gentile believers are wild branches grafted into the root.  The root is there to support the branches; not the other way around. 

I think that Jesus is the root.  "The root is holy" ( Rom 11:16).  The trunk was Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  The children of Jacob became the branches.  Paul said, "branches were broken off because of unbelief".  The 10 tribes who broke away from worship of Yahweh, and became worshipers of false gods - those would be branches "broken off".   

Jeremiah 11:16 "The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form."

IF the Lord had replaced His chosen Israel with another people called "the church", then the TREE would not longer exist.  It would have died because ALL it's branches would have been broken off.  Romans Chapter Eleven clearly tells us that the TREE still existed in Paul's day.  Gentiles who come to belief are "grafted in" among the other branches still attached to the tree.

[hch]

Funny how I posted a note in haste and come back a few days later to see everything under the sun except the three angels' messages posted here.

But there is so much that we have not settled about the three angels that this other stuff just clouds the issue.

And the fourth angel has begun to sound corresponding to Brexit.

Christian Regards

His child

 

 

[hch]

 would be good  

[Martn]

There's your version of the Three/Four Angels' Message, and there are ours. Should we discuss only one version?

Censoring what others understand the message to be, may be what is killing it.