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Does having a fallen nature make us transgressors?


Robert

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What is transgression?

 Transgression pre-supposes that one has the knowledge of the law. Transgression, therefore, is the known violation of God's moral law.

Are we born guilty of transgression?

Answer: Absolutely not!  See Romans 5:13

Are we born sinners?

Answer: Absolutely!  See Ps 51:5 for starters.

Why?

Turn to Eph 2:3 "...All of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh (i.e., our fallen natures), indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind..."

By birth the desires of our fallen natures and our minds are in complete harmony. This is because we are born "spiritually dead" because God's Spirit is has not yet been invited to live within our spirit (i.e., the inner mind). 

Therefore in our case having a sinful nature makes us sinners because we are born with our fallen natures controlling our minds. 

Christ, as the son of man, was born spiritually alive.  Unlike us His mind was never under the control of "our" fallen natures.  Hence Christ never sinned, not even by a thought.  He was never born a slave to the desires of our fallen natures as we are.

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Does having a fallen nature condemn us?

Answer: Yes!

You see there's a difference between condemnation and guilt.  

Guilt involves volition - the transgression of a known law.

On the other hand condemnation is the result of sharing Adam's fallen nature.  Because of Adam's transgression his nature became bent-to-self.  Since we are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life we all belong to a condemned race, not a guilty race.  

Let me use an example:  Let's say you are thumbing a ride because your car broke down.  Unknown to you the man picking you up is intoxicated.  He is guilty of breaking a known law (i.e., the law against drinking and driving).  You get in his vehicle; because he is intoxicated he takes a curve too fast and as result you both die.  The driver's transgression condemned you, but you aren't guilty of his sin.  You are however condemned because of his sin.

Therefore Christ, as the son of man, wasn't guilty of sin because He took our fallen nature upon His Divinity.  However by assuming our fallen nature He did unite himself to a condemned race.  That condemned race died on the cross forever.  At the resurrection Christ's humanity was raised in a glorified, sinless state without  "our" indwelling bent-to-self. 

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Some will insist that if Christ, as the son of man, took upon His Deity our fallen nature that He would be a sinner in need of Savior.

Well, that's nonsense. Why?

When you accepted the gospel what happened?  The Holy Spirit (i.e., Deity) came and resided in your humanity indwelt your fallen nature.  Does this make the Holy Spirit a sinner?  No!  Why?  Because it's your fallen nature, not His.

The reverse is true of Christ as God.  When Christ's Deity was united to our corporate humanity indwelt with our fallen nature this didn't make the Divinity of Christ sinful.  Why?  Our fallen humanity wasn't His.  He assumed us in order to redeem us.

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I'm in a hurry and only read the first post. Pretty good. Now there is a bit too much Calvinism and Reform theology with the only having the sinful nature. As I understand Genesis 3:15 God also gave us when we sinned our deepest desire something in us that finds sin hideous and our deepest desire is to want to be like and with Jesus. To love the world as he has loved it. Now I agree with the Calvinists and reformers that God gave us that, but they had predestination because they saw God not giving everyone that gift of repentance. I see God having given us the deepest desire back when we left Eden.

Thus I see all of us in a fight between our deepest desire: That which wants to love the world as Jesus has loved it, to be like and with him; and our sinful nature, a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. Even though it is not as strong as our deepest desire, for too many people it is the one that they choose to have in power in their lives. Everything we do goes more towards one or the other of these, but no matter which direction we are choosing, everything we do are still have at least a taint of the other.

We are sinners because we have the sinful nature. Jesus was like us in always except that he did not have a disposition inside himself to think he was for himself by making less of the outside world. Satan had to modify his temptations against Jesus to appeal to his desire to love God supremely and the rest of reality around him.

But even though we have the sinful nature, we can see this fight going on in our lives, examine our hearts, and as we look more towards Jesus we can choose against our sinful nature and in a sense know it to death. We still have that disposition inside of us and thus sinners but we don't need to yield to it.  

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6 hours ago, jackson said:

We are neither born transgressors nor sinners.

I agree we are not born transgressors, but we are born sinners because one's fallen nature and mind are in perfect harmony at birth.  

See Eph 2:3 "we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind"

So we are born with our mind and nature in complete harmony.  What the nature desires the mind is in complete agreement.

Ellen White:   "Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil." [Maranatha - Page 92]

Also, because we are born with a fallen nature we stand condemned.  Notice when Lucifer became imperfect in the following quote:

Ez 28:12 You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty....14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you..15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you..."

Note, Lucifer was absolutely perfect, i.e, sinless, until iniquity (sin) was found in this cherub. Note Ezekiel doesn't state Lucifer was imperfect when He sinned, but when sin was found in him.

 

 

 

 

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Sin is the transgression of the Law  1 John 3:4

This is how the Pharisees viewed sinned.  Outwardly they kept the law.  But the law requires more than mere outward compliance. It demands that your motives and thoughts are pure.

Romans 7:7 "I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Tell me, is coveting an outward act or a selfish thought?  Right, it's a thought, not an act.  So the law demands that your thoughts must be perfect also!

Ellen White: 

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ.

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner." SC 29

Are selfishness and self-love outward acts?  No!  These are desires.  The law especially condemns these.

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6 hours ago, jackson said:

....there is no excuse for sin, either big or little 

Excuse?  I'm not going to excuse sin, but I had no choice in being born a child of fallen Adam.  

In Adam I stand condemned because I share his life with its bent-to-self.  Not only do I stand condemned, but because I was born without God's Spirit my mind and nature were in full agreement while in my mother's womb.  The only type of love that I knew was self-love, not agape love.  I was born with a u-turn agape.  Hence I  was born a sinner, not a transgressor.  Latter, when I came to know the law (either explicitly or implicitly) I became a transgressor. 

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5 hours ago, jackson said:

Stick to scripture. If you say you are not born a transgressor then you can't be born a sinner. Please read 1 John 3:4

We don't share Adam's guilt, but we share the bend to sin that he got when he ate, and we all share the deepest desire that is inside of us given to us in Genesis 3:15. Even though we don't share Adam's guilt, because of his sin we start transgressing the law before we are even aware of it. Many of our cries as babies were not just because of making needs known, but mixed with a selfishness of "I want something and I want it now!" and a beginning to transgress God's law. Thus, yes we were born sinners and because of that soon are transgressing God's law on our own and while we don't share in Adam's guilt we have our own guilt before we know it.

Among the sacrifices we have the sin offering which is for the specific acts of sin that we commit. Another offering is the morning and evening sacrifice. The sin offering when we place our hands on the lamb's head is a transfer of our sins to the lamb and is for our transgressions of the law.  This offering was hoped to become less and less until stopped. But the morning and evening sacrifice was to continue whether we had done a transgression or not.

We are born sinners no matter what we do and that is symbolized in the morning and evening sacrifice. Then there are the acts of transgression that we do for which we have the sin offering. Even if we were to not to commit an act of transgression, we still needed the message of the morning and evening sacrifice.  

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6 hours ago, jackson said:

Stick to scripture. If you say you are not born a transgressor then you can't be born a sinner. Please read 1 John 3:4

Sin is more than merely breaking ten brief commands.  Sin is anything outside of agape.  Hence it takes agape to keep the law.  That's why Paul states "agape is the fulfillment of the law".

Anyway, let's go back to Romans 5:12-13

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)...

Where was your life substance when Adam sinned? Right, in Adam!

Were you an individual in Adam?  No! Nevertheless your life substance was there because the whole human race is the multiplication of Adam's fallen life.

What happened when Adam sinned?  His humanity, which is our humanity, became polluted with iniquity.  Because of Adam's transgression you were made a sinner (see Rom 5:19).  What does that mean?  It means you were born without God's Spirit and hence the nature you received from Adam and your mind were in harmony with each other.  Therefore Adam's transgression made you a sinner.

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The law was given to turn sinners into transgressors (see Rom 5:20).  Before you were ignorant, but now after the law has revealed itself to you are a guilty sinner (i.e., a transgressor).

All babies are born sinners (at no fault of their own), but they aren't transgressors.  The law can't touch them until they can discern it.  Then, at the age of accountability, they become transgressors.  

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29 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

We don't share Adam's guilt, but we share the bend to sin ....

Right...Because we share this bend to sin from Adam we are born sinners.  However, we are not guilty of sin until the law reveals itself to us.  Then we become transgressors in need of Christ's righteousness. 

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33 minutes ago, jackson said:

and one must transgress before one can sin.

Let's say a baby is born and dies within five minutes because of complications.  Outwardly that baby didn't commit a deed of sin during those 5 min.  Does that baby need a Savior?

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The law is self sacrificing love. We are born in rebellion and transgression to this law. But also the question about sin being transgression to the law and the need for a savior opens another can of worms.

God is the only source of life. The trinity exists in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other based on the law of self renouncing love. The only way finite beings can exist is in connection to the source of life. Lucifer raising questions about God was not sin. But when he crossed the line between having the questions to where instead of looking for answers he started to congratulate him self for being so intelligent as to come up such clever questions and crossed the line of selfishness he should have ceased to exist. But God kept him alive both with hopes of salvation, but for the universe to understand.

Gabriel is just as dependent on Christ as savior as you and I. They have not transgressed the law, but the angels are not saved by their own righteousness. Even among the trinity, they are in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other, giving Christ a huge risk when he came to end up trusting in his own righteousness instead of constantly depending on the Father and the Spirit. And the Father and Spirit also needed to allow Jesus to have the freedom of choice and not take over. They had to depend on each other. It was a real risk the Godhead faced.

Had Jesus failed Enoch, Moses and Elijah would not be facing an angelic firing squad  to execute them for being sinners without Jesus dying in their place. The whole righteousness by faith relationship that the universe exists upon would have been broken and the angels and beings on the other beings on other planets would have also died.

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56 minutes ago, jackson said:

 

If that baby was already a sinner as you postulate, then a Savior will do it no good unless the newborn believes in Jesus and repents. (See Lk 24:47. Acts2:38 : Acts 10;43 etc. on  requirements for forgiveness of sins) Of course that would not be possible for the baby to do, so in your doctrine the baby would die an unrepentant  sinner and face the second death, for Jesus said unrepented sinners would not be in Heaven.

That is not true. If it was you have just created righteousness by works, the works of confession and repentance. Too often we think that Salvation is the work of saying the magic words about Jesus and giving a history lesson. But grace is grace. The baby is still saved by grace. The idea of unrepentant sinners not being in heaven is talking about those who are old enough to realize the difference between right and wrong and deliberately choose a life of wrong and rejecting grace.

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7 hours ago, jackson said:

The Bible clearly outlines what sin is and how it is committed, so the 5 minute old baby who dies was not born or died a sinner. But it needed a savior to have been given life in the first place, for without a Savior mankind would have perished with Adam and Eve.

So, what you are saying is that because of Adam's sin (and Eve came from Adam) all men were condemned.  That infers all men (which includes infants) needs a Savior.

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We know there will  be babies and young  children  in Heaven (Isa 11:8), but how God decides the salvation issues for deceased babies , stillborns and the aborted is a mystery that God has not chosen to reveal. He reveals only what is for our good to know, so I do not think it is proper to speculate on this matter.

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Here's an email I sent to Pastor Sequeira on this subject:

Pastor Jack,

What's your Biblical view on all infants who die before the age of accountability - are they safe "in Christ"? 

My position is "yes".  I use two main verses, although there's more to support my position: Romans 4:15 & Romans 5:18.  I'm open to your interpretation.

Thanks,

Robert 


 

 

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I agree with you. However, within Christianity there are four views:

1.  Since babies are born without sin they will be saved.

2.  Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism.

3.  Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability,

that will decide their eternal destiny. 

4.  The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents.

Jack

 

 

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8 hours ago, jackson said:

If that baby was already a sinner as you postulate, then a Savior will do it no good unless the newborn believes in Jesus and repents. 

So Christ's corporate death did nothing for it was only provisional? 

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers.

The main argument that has often been used to prove that the in Christ motif applies only to believers is Romans 16:7.  In this chapter of greetings Paul makes this statement:  “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison on with me....  They were in Christ before I was” (NIV, emphasis mine).  Clearly, what Paul is implying is that these two men accepted the truth as it is in Christ and were converted before Paul himself.  To build a whole theology on this one text while ignoring all the other in Christ texts Paul uses (some 64 times) is very poor exegesis, to say the least.

Further, this conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4).

It is here where I (Sequeira) disagree with the teachings of the Biblical Research Institute (BRI) of the GC, as well as some of the Independent Ministries.  I believe that the true everlasting gospel, which God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism.  Rather, it is the incredible good news that on the cross the entire human race was actually or objectively redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God by the death of His Son (John 3:17; 17:4; 19:30; Romans 5:5-10,18; Ephesians 2:5, 6, 8, 9; 2 Corinthians 5:19).

 

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1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

The new born baby does meet the Bible Standard for sinners.

Which is, at no fault of their own, selfishness.

 

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12 hours ago, jackson said:

If you say  they are sinners and are saved by grace without their choice, is conjecture;  unless you can show from scripture that repentance is not always necessary for forgiveness of sins.

You are making repentance meritorious.  Think about it! 

Christ's finished work of the cross is what saves.  What Christ did about 2000 years ago reversed our condemnation "in Adam" and legally justified "all men unto life".  Romans 5:18

I've touched on this before....

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2 minutes ago, Robert said:

You are making repentance meritorious.  Think about it! .

Let me quote Pastor Sequeira on this one:

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers....

Further, this conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  

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God is the only source of life. The trinity exists in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other. Created beings only get life from God and it continues only through remaining in the righteousness by faith relationship with their creator.

The angels and created beings for who knows how many years (we are dealing with eternity, so I have no problem with the billions of years passing as the youth of the universe). For the universe to mature they had to answer the questions of: Is God really all he claims to be? Is he really both outside of time and space as well as inside of time and space, is he really the one who knows all and wants the best for us, or is the law of self sacrificing love just a way to keep a higher evolved being above us and to stifle our evolution? If someone sins can God be both just and merciful.

Had sin never arisen these questions would have still needed to be answered. When these questions came to Lucifer he could have studied and become professor of evil at New Jerusalem Union College. 

The mystery of iniquity is why didn't Lucifer look for answers to these questions. Lucifer only began patting himself on his back for being clever enough to ask such intelligent questions. Thus instead of coming to an intellectual understanding of the concept of evil, the universe entered into the best way to learn, but in this case it would have been better to learn the second best way. The universe came to learn by experience.

This earth was created for the angels and beings on other planets to experiment with seeing if life can start spontaneously and theories of any sort of creation that did not need God to create. During this time God let his creatures experiment and make choices. I've heard people say that they envy the life on the unfallen worlds because they don't have to deal with what we are dealing with when it comes to sin. But that is not true. There was a time of probation for the unfallen and wondering if they were making the right choice. And they suffer with us. They have to deal with the pain and sorrow of all our loved one's deaths. They suffer as they hear about disasters. They suffer as they hear one of us are sick.  

They are only saved through their righteousness by faith relationship with God. and they had to build it by faith. It was not until the two sides were formed that God moved over the chaos that was here and sing "Let there be light!" Until that moment they had God's word, evidence to study, but no proof. And no proof came until the 2 sides were formed. And even though they formed sides, they did not close probation on themselves until the cross.

Thus we see that even for the unfallen they are not living by their unfalleness. They are living in their righteousness by faith relationship with God. They are not sinners but still need a savior. Jesus still needed to die for them.

With us we are sinners. We are born with 2 attitudes inside ourselves; Our deepest desire, the desire to want to be like and with Jesus, and our sinful nature, selfishness. A disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. A disposition to esteem ourselves more highly than others, to serve self, to seek the highest place, and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit. William Glasser points out that from the moment we are born we behave and he talks about total behavior. This is an important concept but we don't need to deal with these details here in this post. What we need to know now is that in this constant behavior that starts at our birth, every thing we do includes these two attitudes inside of us. As we go on in life we tend to go more towards  one of these or the other. This becomes our character that become us. But for the saved, until glorification everything we do, even our best is still tainted with selfishness, our sinful nature. Now during the final days we will be where we think that we are rejecting Jesus and thus think that we are giving up eternal life by following the Bible and choosing not to yield to our sinful nature when Satan has his counterfeit as Christ. We choose not to commit acts of transgression of God's law, but the fact that we still have the selfish urges does it that even though there is no longer any acts of transgressions of the law, we are still sinners.

Whether we transgress God's law or not, we, like Gabriel, are fully dependent upon Christ. And even when Jesus was on earth, while he did not have in him the disposition to think he was for himself by making less of the outside world, and never transgressed God's law, his test was will he constantly depend on his righteousness by faith relationship with the Father and Holy Spirit or look to himself? Will he constantly follow self sacrificing love no matter what? Among the liberals are those who picture it as Jesus kept the law for us, and we have to hide behind Jesus' righteousness so that God's wrath does not get us. From among them there is the argument that you need to give up Sabbath keeping because that is your works instead of letting Jesus' works be in our place.

No, no. Works are works and while works end up as a fruit, it is not works that save us. Not our works, not Christ's works. He is not the perfect legalist in our place. Jesus' works were the result of holding on to his righteousness by faith relationship with the Father and Spirit. His death makes it possible for us to share that relationship. Had Jesus failed it would have showed that God does not live by his law of self sacrificing love, it would have showed that the unfallen who choose to follow God made a wrong choice, and they would have been just as lost as the demons.

Everything is righteousness by faith. The relationship of the trinity, the relationship of the unfallen to the trinity, and the relationship of the fallen. Part of the investigative judgment is in seeing how Jesus saves us, it helps the unfallen understand their own salvation better. Fallen or unfallen we are in this together. The new born child starts out behaving and all our behavior has both our desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it, to want to be like and with him, and also selfish looking out for number one, a sinner. Either way we still in need of a savior, to have that special relationship with God that gives us life.  

I hope this helps.

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4 hours ago, jackson said:

Confession and repentance are man's necessary and sincere  response to grace. They are God's requirements for the forgiveness of sins.  There is nothing meritorious about them.

Then confession saves, not Christ.  We can therefore boast, when we get to heaven, because we did something: "I saved myself because I confessed!"

Actually, confession is admitting I am a sinner and I need Christ's righteousness (100%) and not my own (0%)!

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46But Jesus declared, “Someone touched Me, for I know that power has gone out from Me.” 47Then the woman, seeing that she could not escape notice, came trembling and fell down before Him. In the presence of all the people she explained why she had touched Him and how she had immediately been healed. 48“Daughter,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you. Go in peace.”…Luke 8

One cannot be saved without cooperation with the Lord of glory. It is important for all of mankind that are saved to know that our Father does not force them to be saved. Please give biblical evidence that His injunctions (Ten Commandments) are not part of that cooperative effort.

9As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. 11I have told you these things so that My joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.… John 15

12This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.....Revelation 14

God is Love!~Jesus saves! :D

 

 

 

Lift Jesus up!!

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Jackson, I have no issue with what you are saying about repentance. The issue is about being a sinner at birth. While we have both attitudes fighting inside ourselves and all our behaviors are influenced by both attitudes, in birth we naturally go towards our sinful nature. It is God's gift of repentance that we can be born again and through the Holy Spirit start to go towards our deepest desire.

Babies are not saved because they are not transgressing the law. Whether are sinners or a member of the angels or unfallen worlds all of us have a salvation based on our connection to God through righteousness by faith. The unfallen have not transgressed God's law and are thus not sinners, however they are not saved by not having broken God's law. Little babies are not saved by not having broken God's law and because of the sinful nature they are born transgressing the law.

We have to remember the nature of hell. It is not God looking at us with us standing there trembling and either God saying "you can go into heaven" and we wipe the sweat off our face as we run in with joy that we made it and hope to get lost in heaven before God changes his mind. Or else have God tell us that we have to go to hell and get dragged off kicking and screaming for mercy and begging for forgiveness and to be allowed to go into heaven but it's too late. Or any other way we want to modify this basic schema.  

Heaven and hell are two attitudes towards seeing God in person and two responses. God treats us the same. But what God does for us is heaven to some of us and too others of us is death. A baby was born. It was heaven to the shepherds and wise men, Simeon and Anna and hell to Herod. When Jesus cleaned the temple people ran two directions. The money changers ran from the temple and the children, poor and lame ran TO Jesus. How often do you see children running with joy to a man with a whip? Yet something about Jesus with the whip made children more excited to be with him than the most excited child going to Disneyland. This is the issue.

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6 hours ago, jackson said:

God leadeth thee to repentance?

Here's repentance:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Colossians 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

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