I'm A Good Man--most of the time!

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

Nothing vicarious here....You receive your glorified life at the 2nd coming.

Rob

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That is off the subject. We're not talking about the glorified body which believers receive at the 2nd coming. How about an answer from you?

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

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Robert said:

I've already answered Norman on this one. 2 Cor 5:17, taken in context, is speaking of our new humanity residing "in Christ" and not what God does in the believer...

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Please show FROM THE BIBLE that Paul in this verse DOES NOT speak of what Christ does in the believer.

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14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh [according to our fallen humanity]; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer [because He left our fallen humanity in the grave]. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [Where? “In Christ”] 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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archierieus said:

EITHER a person may keep on sinning--worshiping idols, blaspheming God, committing adultery, you name it--right up to the time Jesus returns in the clouds of glory; OR s/he cannot. You can't have it both ways.

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A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

"so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience." [EGW]

"Oh, that all may see that everything [:"red"]in obedience[/], in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ." [EGW]

"For there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...." [Paul]

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves...." [John]

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[:"blue"]"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NIV

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 Jn 3:9 NIV

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe...." 1 Jn 5:18 NIV

[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"We know that anyone born of God does NOT continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him. 1 Jn 5:18 NIV

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"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." [1 John 1:8]

[Robert]

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Ron Lambert said:

A deep and pervading confusion about the gospel has been growing in Adventism ever since 1888. The same persistent resistance to the truth is still seen in those who rebel at the humbling truth that righteousness is only in Christ, we can never make an equal contract out of the covenant.

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Bingo!

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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archierieus said:

Ahh, so you say that believers will have an ATTITUDE of wanting to do right, in their minds, but they are still in bondage to sin, in their bodies. Is that correct? If so, then according to your theory of the gospel, it is in the mind, not in the experience. You seem to see the law of sin and death as holding us in bondage, even after we accept Christ. Robert, is that correct?

Dave

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The principle of God's law, agape, is written on the heart/mind throughout the life. It begins at conversion and one begins to understand God's selfless love as he opens himself to the gospel. As he does he matures...he grows...he experiences Christ's life.

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[:"blue"]<font size=4> Let me ask you again. Can you consider a Christian to be growing if he continues to yield to the same temptation that is besetting him/her? Would you consider a 1st grader to be growing & making progress if at the end of his first year in school he/she still cannot add 1+1?

Does the person who "experiences Christ's life" as you express it, continue to steal? Murder? Fornicate?</font> [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

"We know that anyone born of God does NOT continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him. 1 Jn 5:18 NIV

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"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." [1 John 1:8]

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[:"blue"]So John is lying by talking out of both corners of his mouth? Or did he not mean that the believer cannot claim to be without sin because he used to live in sin but now as one who has experienced Christ, he/she has stopped willfully doing it? [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

... I do insist that those who claim to be citizens of the kingdom of heaven

live like one.

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And there, my dear man, is your problem! Paul blasted legalists such as you in Galatians chapter five.

You see the Judaizers made the same demand of newly converted Gentiles as you do here.

Go to Acts 15:1

Some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Verse 5: Some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses [the first 5 books of the OT].”

The big issue then was "circumcision" as taught from the law of Moses. What was Paul's reply?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage [the demands of the law]. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision [as a requirement], Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [because the Judaizers insisted on it], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

So Gerry, when you judge us...when you put us "under law"...when YOU INSIST that believers perform to your standard, then I must say [as did Paul] YOU MUST KEEP THE WHOLE LAW TO BE SAVED!

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So John is lying by talking out of both corners of his mouth?

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No, John is not lying...YOU are! John meant what he said....None of us are fully without sin [self-seeking].

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Does the person who "experiences Christ's life" as you express it, continue to steal? Murder? Fornicate?

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Why just name 3 things, Gerry? Oh, I know why....You keep the letter while failing at the spirit of the law, yet you want credit! You know what Paul calls that? "a fair show in the flesh"

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

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Robert said:

A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

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You are not giving a straight answer, Robert. Which is it? Yes or no?

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My answer? He who is without sin cast the first stone! Judge not, less you be judged!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

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A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

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Here is what happens in the life of one who loves God and would die rather than disobey. He will not willfully sin and if one does, he doesn't know God, period. The true believer will not deceive himself and will not make excuses for sin. Those who do are lukewarm. The life will not be free of selfishness in that the selfish thoughts will not be known to the true believer of God.

In other words, only as we learn & experience more of God's unselfish love do we see in ourselves the selfishness that we have ingrained in us. It's like this, where no law is there is no sin. Our selfish hearts blind us to what we are doing, so we don’t see the wrong we are thinking. If we don’t see the wrong then we are living with no law. But when we see the love of God, then the law is clear and our sin is shown to us, (or sin revived) then we are horrified and ask for forgiveness as we see ourselves anew, again. This happens over and over till Christ returns. But there will be no conscious self seeking in the heart of those who truly love God and have the Holy Spirit living in them. If there is, then we should, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” 2Co 13:5

Love is stronger than death and that is the dividing line between those who are ready for heaven with Christ and those who are not. As Stephen, Paul, Peter, John, James and all the others who loved God were willing to give their lives for Christ, so will we when we love God with all our hearts, minds and souls. Mat 16:25 “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

This is not about, “Making it to heaven” it’s about loving God with our whole life and to be willing to let Him sacrifice us if need be. We can be changed so that we in our capacity would be willing to be sent on a mission, as Christ was and to be willing to die for those who would murder us with hatred. This Christ can do in us and those who love God supremely will do this willingly and without thought, because of Christ. Because we know that Christ died once to sin and dies no more therefore we need not fear the 2nd death, praise God, we need not fear the 2nd death!

Norman

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So John is lying by talking out of both corners of his mouth? Or did he not mean that the believer cannot claim to be without sin because he used to live in sin but now as one who has experienced Christ, he/she has stopped willfully doing it?

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No...you made that up! Here's what it says:

8 If we claim [present tense] to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and He just in forgiving our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

10 If we claim we have not sinned [past tense], we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Okay...you quote 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What is a practiced, known sin?

Answer: "If we [do not] confess our sins" He can no longer present us perfect in Himself.

Hence a practiced sin is a known sin we refuse to acknowledge before God. Let's say I commit adultery....I know it is sin, but let's say my flesh got the best of me for whatever reason.

Now my conscience burns within....What do I do? Harden my heart...i.e., refuse to confess or do I confess? If the first I am "practicing sin"!

So the issue is not perfectionism, but confession of sin. There's where you go wrong....It's not John, it's your misinterpretation of John because your mind is given over to legalism.

Rob

[Robert]

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Norman said:

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A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

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The life will not be free of selfishness...

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Bingo!

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

[Where? “In Christ”]

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You have added those words, Robert. That is not Scripture. Paul does not say that the believer is a new creature IN CHRIST, that is, Paul does not say that he is merely CREDITED with being a new creature, or that he is merely ACCOUNTED a new creature. Paul does not confine his description to something external. The verse says that he IS a new creature. This is referred to as being "born again" of the Holy Spirit. And, in order to be born again, the BELIEVER must first die to the old. Thus, Gal. 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live: yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME." Again, Paul says, "Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory." Not merely Christ outside of us, not merely something vicarious, or legally credited to us, but Christ lLIVING in us, Christ IN us, changing us, transforming us, is the hope of glory.

Thus, Robert, you have added to Scripture here. Leave out your added words, and stick with the Bible as it reads.

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

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A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

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The life will not be free of selfishness...

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Bingo!

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I can hardly believe my eyes. Do you realize what you have done here, Robert? First of all, let's take a look at what Norman actually posted. Here are he sentences from which you quoted a few words:

"The true believer will not deceive himself and will not make excuses for sin. Those who do are lukewarm. The life will not be free of selfishness in that the selfish thoughts will not be known to the true believer of God."

Norman is saying here that those who deceive themselves and make excuses for sin are lukewarm and not free from selfishness. He contrasts that description with the true believer, to whom "selfish thoughts will not be known."

I have no idea whether or not you twisted Norman's words intentionally, or out of ignorance of what he really was saying. Either option is unsettling. If this is what you do with plain statements posted here, what will you do with Scripture???????!!!!!!!!!!

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

No...you made that up! Here's what it says:

8 If we claim [present tense]

to be without sin

, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and He just in forgiving our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

10 If we claim we have not sinned [past tense], we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

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Well, let's take a look at the previous verses too, vv. 5, 6 and 7:

"5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Looking at the whole passage helps us understand the writer's intent. Thus, we see John saying:

1) God is light, and in Him is no darkness;

2) If we say that we have fellowship with God, but walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

3) If we walk in the light . . . we have fellowship . . . and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

4) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

5) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

6) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.

Clearly, then, we cannot claim to have fellowship with God, and still walk in darkness. What is 'darkness'? Sin. If we walk in the light, Jesus' blood CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN. What is the word, 'cleanses'? Gk. katharizei, which is third person singular PRESENT ACTIVE INDICATIVE!!! This cleansing from sin is happening now. katharizo means to purify. To whom is this purifying offered? To those who acknowledge that they have sinned. What if a person refuses to acknowledge that s/he has sinned? S/he cannot be purified, and is a liar. And what if a person confesses his sin? God is faithful and just to do two things: to FORGIVE the sin AND to CLEANSE from all unrighteousness. One is external, the other is internal. "Forgive" is juridical, external. "Cleanse" is internal, happening within the believer. The gospel of Jesus Christ, therefore, accomplishes BOTH--the juridical aspects of salvation, AND the inward purification of the believer.

Looking at the verses IN THE SEQUENCE IN WHICH THEY WERE WRITTEN, we see they make perfect sense. John goes on from there in the rest of the letter. Now that you have been forgiven and purified, he says, do not continue to walk in sin!!

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Hence a practiced sin is a known sin we refuse to acknowledge before God.

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Ha! WHERE did you come up with that??????? Have you taken a look at the Greek? Here is what the verse actually says:

"pas ho gegenneemenos ek tou theou hamartian OU POIEI . . ." (emphasis added)

Robert, do you know what that is saying? "All the (one) having been born [perfect passive participle, masculine singular nominative] from out of God, sin [accusative] not makes/does/performs/brings about. [3rd pers. sing., PRESENT ACTIVE INDICATIVE!!!] 'POIEOO' does not mean to 'acknowledge,' it means to DO, to PERFORM THE ACT!

I urge you to take a careful look at the material, before you make such statements as you did above.

Regards, Dave

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

My answer? He who is without sin cast the first stone! Judge not, less you be judged!

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Huh?? that has nothing to do with the question. Are you refusing to give a yes or now answer? Once again, are you saying that a believer in Jesus will continue to wilfully sin, whether worshiping idols, committing adultery, stealing, lying, etc., you name it, right up until the time Jesus returns in the clouds of glory--AND be taken home to heaven? Is your answer 'yes,' or is it 'no'?

[archierieus]

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Robert said:

You see the Judaizers made the same demand of newly converted Gentiles as you do here.

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I have a difficult time believing what I am reading here. Are you serious, Robert? Neither Gerry, nor anyone else on this thread, is suggesting that believers of any stripe need to be circumcised or keep the ceremonial law. However, Paul, Peter, James and John--and Jesus Christ--all, to a man, do indeed insist that those who claim to be citizens of heaven, live like a citizen of heaven. Do you really want cites? I thought that was pretty obvious from Scripture.

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the law of Moses [the first 5 books of the OT].”

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Actually, the laws of Moses were the ceremonial and civil laws. The moral law of God was distinct from the ceremonial and civil laws, in the following ways: It alone was spoken by God to all the people; it alone was written by God's finger; it alone was written on tables of stone; it alone was placed inside the ark; etc.

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that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

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As you pointed out above, the issues were circumcision and the ceremonial law. Nothing that Paul wrote suggested that believers do not need to obey the Ten Commandments. In fact, Paul, John and Jesus all referred to the wicked, as the "lawless ones." Robert, would you like me to take the time to provide references for you? I can if you wish.

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NIV

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[:"red"] "No one who abides in Him....commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]." [/] 1 John 3:6 AMP parenthesis, brackets theirs LHC

Practice: to perform or work at repeatedly so as to become proficient. Webster's Ninth New Collegiate

Dictionary

I have never known a Christian who was serious about serving Jesus Christ, that I was aware of, no matter what particular persuasion, who practiced sin as defined in the terms above.

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"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 Jn 3:9 NIV

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[:"red"] "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. " [/] 1 John 3:9 NASB

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"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe...."

[/] 1 Jn 5:18 NIV

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[:"red"]

We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].[/] 1: John 5:18 AMP

parenthesis, brackets their's LHC

[LifeHiscost]

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archierieus said:

Huh?? that has nothing to do with the question. Are you refusing to give a yes or now answer? Once again, are you saying that a believer in Jesus will continue to wilfully sin, whether worshiping idols, committing adultery, stealing, lying, etc., you name it, right up until the time Jesus returns in the clouds of glory--AND be taken home to heaven? Is your answer 'yes,' or is it 'no'?

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Dave, you're trying to paint Robert into a corner. Very few people respond appropriately when feeling they are forced to do anything.

[:"red"]"Love.... is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way [/] 1 Cor 13:1,5 AMP

And there is one point maybe you haven't considered.

[:"red"] "And the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God's laws." [/] James 2:10

Now I may not have deliberately set out to murder anyone today, but I'll freely admit, with sadnes of heart, pride of soul is still one of those demons that afflict me.

[:"red"] "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." [/] Exodus 20:3 KJV

Keep looking up!

[Edison.G.Muruganandam]

Dr.Ben, if these good works are out of the faith you have in the Lord then you got to be on the right track. I don't think we could define the perfection of the law in any of our works. However, you can follow the lord in the perfection of your heart.

Keep the faith and the fear of God alive in you.(It is your faith that would be tested time and again) Keep committing your ways and surrendering your life to the will of God day after day, event after event, then God imputes His righteousness, gives you strength to overcome what need to be overcome,and keeps you away from sinning.(where is your work) You may fall yet you'll raise again. You see there is deferance between falling and forsaking. As long as you keep the faith in the Lord you don't forsake the lord and His laws. You accept all His laws and His plan for you and you are willing to follow Him. This is perfection of heart. Yet, in your weakness you sin but let the Spirit work in you repentance and go to God for forgiveness. You are willing to let God deal with it. He may chastise you, put you through circumstances to teach you more or test you. When you have responded well He defends you. You may still have weaknesses however, He would keep you from falling when you have proved that you don't desire to do so... In all these it is your faith that matters.

Dr.Ben, your works show that you are responding well. I personally feel that as long as you don't plan to do things that are forbidden on sabbath and break it intentionally or treat it just like another day there is nothing seriously harmful(This is something very debatable).I believe in seventh-day sabbath and keep it to my capacity...

Keep the faith and the relationship on. God will work the works in you and see you through.

ps: I didn't intend to write so much. I have shared what I have personally experienced in the Lord.

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

You have added those words, Robert ["in Christ"]. That is not Scripture. Paul does not say that the believer is a new creature IN CHRIST, that is, Paul does not say that he is merely CREDITED with being a new creature, or that he is merely ACCOUNTED a new creature.

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"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, [:"red"]all[/] things are become new"

This cannot refer to the believer because,

1] The only "new" thing that has taken place is his mind/heart.

2] The flesh remains 100% sinful because "the law of sin" is still present.

3] He remains "mortal".

4] He still falls short of God's selfless love.

The only place that "ALL things are become new" is in the holy history of Christ.

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

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Robert said:

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Norman said:

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A person may not be doing any of those things you listed, but is he free of sin...of self-seeking?

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The life will not be free of selfishness...

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Bingo!

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I can hardly believe my eyes. Do you realize what you have done here, Robert?

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“The Prince of heaven [Jesus] came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life, a life that would be an example for all human beings. He lived a life free from self-seeking, [how?] wholly [not partially] given to the service of others.”

“To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him as his disciple, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him must share his poverty. [i.e., the natural result of living selflessly in a self-centered world] "If any man will come after me [i.e., live Christ’s life]," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples." [RH 7-4-1912]

Matt 20:25 You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them [i.e., they are self-seeking], and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great [# 1] among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first [the greatest] must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

[Robert]

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archierieus said:

Clearly, then, we cannot claim to have fellowship with God, and still walk in darkness. What is 'darkness'? Sin.

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So we cannot have fellowship with God and still sin? Well, you must read the rest of the context because John defines sin as deception, i.e, "IF we say we have no sin we DECEIVE ourselves." Darknesss then is the sin of self-righteousness!

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If we walk in the light, Jesus' blood CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN....To whom is this purifying offered? To those who acknowledge that they have sinned. What if a person refuses to acknowledge that s/he

has sinned?

S/he cannot be purified, and is a liar.

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"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves"....There is no past tense here....You are never without sin. I fully acknownledge myself as a sinner, yet I have not been purified. I am still a sinner, although a maturing sinner. Your focus is based on what Christ does in us....This is not what saves. You make it what saves and hence you are a subtle legalist!

Turn to Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body [i.e., "in Christ"] through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Christ represents us "in Himself"....In Him you are holy and blameless! How? IF you continue in the faith! Instead you have Him representing YOU outside of Himself....What presumption...what utter self-righteousness and hypocrisy. What blindness!

Hebrew 10:19 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the most holy place [by our law-keeping, no] by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way [i.e., not through law] which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh....