Was God responsible?

[8thdaypriest]

 We pray "lead us not into temptation".  God ALLOWS the Devil to tempt (test) us.

God "set a hedge" around Job to protect him, because of Job's obedience and loyalty.  Then He took the hedge away, allowing Satan to "test" Job.  But he still prevented Satan from killing Job. 

So who is responsible - the one who actually attacks, or the one who keeps the attacker on a chain until someone needs "testing"??

God can heal, but does or does not - based upon His "plan". 

Thousands and thousands of children have slowly starved to death on this planet.  We prosecute parents who do not provide food, shelter, and protection for their own children.  We call it child endangerment, when parents or other designated adults leave children in peril.  I guess that standard does not apply during wartime??  Or perhaps the children of those who "know not God" are NOT counted as "God's children". 

I realize that we were all born into a war zone. 

What part is God responsible for?  He is all-powerful.  He COULD set limits to protect little children, or animals, but He does not.  The "whole creation" groans in pain. 

I'm just asking...  Looking for "better" answers.

[CoAspen]

Freedom of choice is something that humans still have difficulty understanding.Adam and Eve choose the path to destruction for the future generations. Not God's fault. Is it fair that the future was changed? There is no go back button. God is going to change the direction of history again. There is so much that we don't know but a look at physics, etc, I believe, can help us to understand the natural laws and how there are different paths. SF is always exploring the idea of multiple time lines and changes. Perhaps it is not always just 'fiction'. 

The 'sin' was choosing the a pathway that lead to destruction. Everyday we make choices that effect what happens at that moment in time. So, in effect we are constantly altering our course through life most every moment. That is a lot of power!!!

I believe 'faulting God' in any way is just a continuation of the original lie that A & E fell for. The Biblical writers fell into the same. Even Christ told his followers, being with Him on a daily basis, they still did not understand. 

[Jessie-Jess]

Yes, He has set limits. Re-read the book of Job, and you'll see that God set limits to what the devil could do to Job. At first, the enemy of souls could not make Job sick, but then when he was allowed that, God still set a limit that Job's life would be preserved. Then, after his trial and testing period, God blessed Job even more than before all the misery that befell him.

God gave us our freedom of choice. If He didn't allow for temptation, how could we chose between Him and our own will, to allow the enemy into our lives? We chose the enemy, and so God also allows us to deal with the consequences of that choice. If He took away all the bad things, He would be in a large part taking away our freedom to choose when it comes to big and important matters, and also we will lose the opportunities of character development needed to fit us for His kingdom, and these things are supposed to lead us to Him for help.

And yet, even so, He does set limits. They may not be the limits that we want Him to set, and may be broader or tighter than we expect and want from Him, but He sets limits nonetheless...

Even with Saul, who fell out of favor with Him, God preserved Saul and continued to send him conviction of his sins. It wasn't too late for Saul until he went to the witch of Endoor, and then took his own life. Even for people that fall out of His favor, God still sets limits for their protection, to some extent. Go and see for yourself what God has done.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Tom Wetmore
Stop using the quote box function!!

[Kevin H]

God does take responsibility. Jesus says that God sends the sunshine and rain (sunshine indicates famine and other hard parts of life, and rain the showers of blessings) on both the just and the unjust. God is the God of milk and honey (these were agricultural terms in the ancient world. Honey or preserved food, came from areas with a lot of growing food, we make preserved food or honey from the leftovers after we ate our full. A life that is predictable, easy and exciting, but where invading armies would eventually come through. Milk came from mostly goats, out in the desert, sometimes having a lot to eat other times just a little. Not knowing if you will eat from your garden or plow it under. Moving around a lot looking for food for the goats to eat. A life very unpredictable, hard and lonely. )

In Job the behemoth is the beast of Revelation 13, representing human history. The Leviathan is the great sea monster the dragon of Revelation 12, the ancient world's understanding of Satan.

The 4 friends represents worldly solutions to the problem.  The first friend is the typical secular mind who understands that there is something awesome out there, does not deny God's existence, but does not see God as his friend but a great being that he hopes does not notice him because no matter what we do God will find fault with it.

The next two friends are the religious people. One telling Job that he is just not trusting God enough, that if only he would trust God then God would bless him, and his distrust of God is what is causing God to do the bad things to him. The other one says that Job need to not only trust but obey. It's job's disobedience that is causing the problems. The fourth person gives the friends a chiastic structure as he basically repeats the arguments of Job's first friend. They all suggest ways of controlling God. That if Job does this than God has to do that.

Job is saying that if doing was what was needed he's doing all that needs to be done. But for some reason God has chosen to treat him this way. He does not like what God has chosen, he wished that he could talk with God about the choice, but God has freely chosen and he will respect that God has chosen.

God comes in the wind telling that yes he is all full of power, that if power was the issue he could cast Satan to the ground as easily as tossing a pebble to the ground. But using force and external control is not what is going to solve the issues of human history (the behemoth) and the issues of Satan (the Leviathan). The events need to play out and people need to make their choices based on the evidence. With a promise that God will more than make up to us for all our suffering.

[fccool]

First of all, "Freedom of choice" has little to do with this issue.  Job's choice depended on certain understanding and awareness of certain issues, and when circumstances chanced he (or the author) is challenging the status-quo idea that your direct choices influence the state of your well-being.

Hence, the author actually argues against the typical "free will" explanation of evil.   In this case, evil is something that happens not by choice of Job at all, and that's something that Job's friends are trying to hammer into him and he denies it.  

Thus, the "Free will" explanation of evil doesn't fit our reality at all, as the writer points out, because free will only deals with our choices, and the full scope of evil isn't that simple.   Our choices many times are limited by our awareness.   I may choose to press some button, but it may be connected to a trigger that will kill someone.   I may choose to pay taxes that contribute to both harm and good.   I may choose to do something, thinking that I'm doing a favor, but I'm harming the person in reality.

The premise of Job sums up with "evil and righteousness are beyond actions of any given individual".   Religion tends to box things up and present it as some sort of quintessential "solution" for one's problems, and hence it was the thought of the day.   If something is wrong, it means that someone's "sin" is to blame and they brought it on themselves.   But the writer of Job simply point out.... well, these guys think that the reason is this thing, but it's the entirely different situation all together thus blaming people for their downfall is too judgemental and rush.   Free will isn't the explanation.  The likely explanation is more complex.

The second point of Job's writer is that he is trying to build certain ideas back up after deconstructing the improper view.   Just because certain things don't go our way when we cling to the "higher road" of morality, it doesn't mean that we set morality aside and give up.   Yes, many circumstances are out of our control, but we can control how we react to these circumstances.    Thus, the moral framework is eventually worth the effort even when it seems like it doesn't get one immediate gratification.   

To answer the question of the OP.   Let's say that you have a situation where a parent didn't sleep all night and was sick, and is too poor to afford childcare, and they have to feed the baby so they drive up to the store and in their delirium they leave the baby in a hot car and the baby dies.   Who is responsible?   Is it the parent who tries their best?   Is it the baby for not crying hard enough?   Is it the society for stressing out the parent?   Is it God for sitting and watching and not saving the baby?  

Essentially, the writer of Job says... it doesn't matter.   The baby is dead, and shifting blame makes no sense at all, because the tragedy of circumstances are there to be as moral examples and lessons for us to improve and do better.   You'll notice that no one is really punished in the Job for being wrong.   The accusers are not punished, Job isn't really punished since he was righteous all along and it was merely an extreme test of his righteousness.  

The moral of the story is that we shouldn't be doing things because of reward/punishment paradigm, but because understanding and doing the right things is the reward in any circumstances.

[8thdaypriest]

The conclusion of Job, that God can do what He wants BECAUSE He is God, sounds rather like Islam.  Personally, I go back again and again and again to the cross - to be reminded that God LOVES us. 

I think that God must be constrained by His own LAW.  I think He would love to rescue all the suffering innocent children and animals and people, but He CAN'T (at least until Jesus receives the dominion at the final judgment).  To do so would somehow violate His LAW, and everything would be lost.  So we who believe that God is love, must struggle with the "evidence" to the contrary - the continued suffering of the innocent. The "problem of pain" has been around for almost 6000 years. 

Is God "responsible" ?  I say yes - because He created beings with free will, KNOWING that rebellion (and great pain) would come.

Has He accepted that responsibility?  I say yes.  And He paid the ultimate price. 

[Outta Here]

What then is the law that governs our Lord?

[Jessie-Jess]

I was treating this thread like one that would be found in the theological townhall, taking into consideration that while the quote box function wasn't used, things are quoted in the first post, and it's the type of post that might lead to theological discussion, which really, in order for answers to be valid, would require us to refer to His Word, which should require some quoting of Scripture, too. How can human minds seek to figure out God, and to judge God without referring to His own Word? Is that not sin? And who are we to judge God anyway? 

[Aliensanctuary]

If we blame God for the evils that plague the Earth, we take the side of Satan, who is actually responsible for mankind's' separation from the Creator. In the end, we can expect the deletion of all, or nearly all, of the record of human memories, especially the bad memories of pain, suffering, and death which will result in the wiping away of all human tears. Thus, those who are picked to join the Kingdom will have no memory of the bad things that happened to them during their Earthly life. Perhaps all of the infants who died of illness, accident, crime, or war will all have a place in the Kingdom, too.

 

[CoAspen]

I agree with your post Alien..except for the part about 'picked to join heaven'. Did you  mean to word it that way or do you really feel humans have no choice, that is, they are picked by God or not based on their lifes work?

[Gail]

@Jessie-Jess  Only as long as it takes for us to see it!

[Jessie-Jess]

Humans have a choice. There are many who will be in Heaven simply because they didn't want to be. They made no effort, or they gave up on preparing themselves, deciding that it either wasn't real or wasn't worth the struggles that they had to go through in this life. Then there are those who have made the conscious decision, "I don't want to go to hell." or "I don't want to be lost forever." or "I want to go to Heaven," but are not preparing themselves, and are not getting to know the King of Heaven, nor the Sacrifice that He made for them, or have decided that they are going to do things their way and that God will just have to accept them as they are. Not all of these will be allowed to enter, even though they made a decision that they wanted to go, they made choices that contradicted that decision, already deciding that Heaven wasn't worth what they'd have to go through on Earth to receive it.

[JoeMo]

I agree with [the idea that God takes responsibility].  Scripture tells us in many places that we were chosen or predestined for the Kingdom; and that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

I envision the Father and Son discussing the creation of physical beings with a free will. I hear the Father saying, "Son, these people will, by their own free will, turn against us under the influence of the evil one." This is not a quote from anywhere except my fanciful imagination).

Jesus responds: "Father, they will be the pinnacle of Our creation.  When they fall, since they are my creation, I will take responsibility for them; and I will pay the consequences for their failings.  Then, I will cleanse those who put their faith and trust in me and bring them to the Kingdom."

Thus, in response to 8thday's initial query, I do believe that God is ultimately responsible for the chaos we face on planet earth.  After all, He is the one that gave us a choice between good and evil; between order and chaos.  He has also stepped up to the plate to pay the consequences, in that our very Creator - the Word made into Flesh - paid the total penalty for our shortcomings, so that all who believe in (trust) Him will be adopted as His brothers and join the family of God.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Tom Wetmore
Stop using the quote box function!!

[CoAspen]

I have a problem of making God responsible as the defs all seem to say that individual is the cause. So maybe people are using some other def for the word. We understand that Adam and Eve choose not to believe what God had to say about choice and its results. So, they are responsible for the  chaos we face. If it is deemed that God has caused it all by giving us a choice....than we have a 'catch-22.

[Kevin H]

Once again we find a oneness of opposites. We have freedom of choice for which direction we go, but evil is not something that is out of control with God just passively standing by and trying to squeeze in a few blessings to try to help it not be so bad.

While Satan rebels against God, everything he does ends up showing who God is and works towards for those who choose to continue at the end of the Great Controversy to have evil have a job of just being left alone by everyone else. God wanted to give Pharaoh the chance to be blessed by working with the Hebrews. But it was also offered to a Pharaoh who was very power hungry who rejected the offer. (and actually Moses was the true heir to the throne, Moses does NOT mean drawn from the water. That was a guess from a scribe far enough away not to know Egyptian history. Moses was not a name but a title equivalent to crown prince. If we are correct with the early date of the exodus, Moses' adopted mother would have been pharaoh until disposed by a person who took over the throne. Moses was willing to allow him to keep the throne, but probably mistrust made him so unwilling to cooperate.) And this rejection lead to God still bring about blessings to the Hebrews and even a number of Egyptians.  

Caiaphas and Pilate were following their own free will. God would have used them in special ways if only they choose otherwise, but since they choose wrongly their decisions were again not out of control but used by God for his purposes. God is in control but works with our choices. He will bring us where we decide to go, whether it is heaven or hell but in the process he will use us to serve his purposes based on which direction we choose to go.

I have been awed by even the ugliness of Nazism and Hitler, the timing of it. How much evil has been checked because of the fresh memory of the ugliness of those days. Yet what if it had continued just a few months longer as we entered into the nuclear age. Can you imagine what would have happened if they could have replaced the gas chambers with microwave? God gave it to us with perfect timing.  

[Aliensanctuary]

In this life we must prepare ourselves for the decision we must make after the 2nd Resurrection, whether to receive the Mark of YHVH's Kingdom or the Mark of Satan's Kingdom. Although unclear to us, those who will ultimately join the Kingdom of YHVH have already been chosen. We should conduct ourselves as if we will be among the chosen.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Tom Wetmore
Stop using the quote box function!!

[8thdaypriest]

The Serpent told the lie, and Eve believed the lie.  Which is responsible.  The liar or the one who is deceived?  At the final judgment, the sins of the redeemed are put on the head of the scapegoat, indicating that he is responsible.  BUT - God created Satan.  Did God KNOW that Satan would rebel, or did He just know that rebellion was POSSIBLE. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Tom Wetmore
quote...

[JoeMo]

Just my opinion, but if God knows everything, then He had to know satan would rebel, Adam and Eve would be deceived, and humanity would put itself on a path to destruction.  IMO, that's why the plan of salvation was implemented before the foundation of the world.  Did humanity need to be "tested" first? If so, is the test to be infallible in personal sin management, or is the test to have faith in God's grace and protection, regardless of one's circumstances and failures?

[8thdaypriest]

IF the rebellion had NEVER HAPPENED, created beings would have lived in harmony.  They would go up to worship the Father and His Son.  But they would never have known the DEPTH of Their love for created beings.  I agree with Kevin, that God can use the WORST evil to bring about the highest good.  Because of the rebellion, and the sacrifice it necessitated created beings will feel and know a love for the Father and His Son, which would not have been POSSIBLE.  

I personally believe that the horrible pain and evil resulting from the rebellion, added to the revelation of the love of God, will serve to protect the universe of God for eternity, from another rebellion resulting from a question concerning the character, the justice, or the fairness of God.

[8thdaypriest]

What did God "know"?  That's a question we could talk about for weeks.  I've pondered that one. 

I believe that God is so very "knowing", that He could extrapolate from the smallest action to reaction, to reaction, to reaction.  With our own very limited "knowing" we can "know" that a small bacterium or virus, introduced into just one person, can spread to sicken a continent of people, or a hemisphere. 

It's the details of prophecy that make me wonder if God is really able to see the future as clearly as we see the present.  One example:  The serpent on the pole as a symbol of Jesus lifted on the cross.  The brass serpent was "lifted up" some 1400 years before Jesus was "lifted up" from the earth on a cross.  At the time the brass serpent was made, were the Romans using crucifixion as a method of execution?

Edited June 11, 2016 by Tom Wetmore
quotes removed...

[8thdaypriest]

I guess my basic question is:  Was sin inevitable - given unlimited time?  Did God "know", when He created sentient beings with "free will" that eventually some of them would question Him, and finally rebel against Him?

We humans know that our offspring will sin.  We hope they won't commit "big" sins, that truly harm others, but we "know" that is a possibility.

 

[Robert]

God knew that if He created free-will, sentient beings that inevitably sin would enter His creation. Why?  Because of free-will - because of the ability to think and chose.

The major reason sin (i.e., self-dependency) was inevitable was because these sentient beings were ignorant concerning the nature of sin and its results.  

[Tom Wetmore]

I suppose that then prompts the question of why take the risk knowing it would be inevitable?  Was it worth risking a whole planet and God's own son to allow freedom to choose?

[Gail]

Good thoughts throughout... 

One factor that hasn't been considered yet, although Rachel came close, was that there is more to the picture than free choice. There is the matter of trust. While free choice would give the first pair opportunity to follow a selfish inclination, would they trust their Creator enough to submit to His warning and way?

Love is based on trust, and in endowing man with the freedom of choice, the issue might then become one of faithfulness.

[Robert]

Was it worth the known risk?  Apparently God thought so.  Maybe from our point of view the answer might be "no"?  The greater question: is there a greater purpose?  

I think the answer is "yes". And that is because sin will never occur again throughout God's vast, limitless universe, i.e., to say that affliction will never arise a second time!  Never again will free-will beings take the road of self-dependency - never!  

Why?  Because the universe, and we by experience,  are seeing the results of self-dependency and self-supremacy.