Robert Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 I'm sure all of you have heard a "good idea", right? An idea might sound great on paper, but the real test is when that idea is placed into practice. The love of self, the opposite of agape, sounds wonderful, but when allowed to be placed into practice it reveals itself. Lucifer began to doubt and question God's agape. He found God's love too restrictive. Thus he placed his feet in a direction towards self-dependency. The further he separated himself from God the more he became convinced that self-love was the angels' ticket to true happiness. So on paper Lucifer's brand of love sounded great, but once put into practice it ended in disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted June 11, 2016 Author Share Posted June 11, 2016 I don't agree that "self-dependency" is the closest definition for "sin". In my understanding the closest one word definition would be "rebellion". I'm sure there is a long discussion on that theme somewhere at this forum. I personally DO believe that rebellion (in some form) against the expressed will of God the Creator, WAS inevitable - given an eternity of time, added to "free will". Anyone who has spent much time around a two-year-old, knows that humans find using the word "No!" to be an affirmation of one's identity. I think most believers don't understand what REALLY HAPPENED when Adam ate of the fruit which the LORD had expressly forbidden. God gave mankind dominion over the earth and everything on it. The only way for Adam and Eve to maintain dominion was for the LORD to PROTECT that dominion. That PROTECTION was conditional. The condition was loyalty (obedience). Satan KNEW THAT. If he could get Adam to disobey the one command, then the LORD would be forced to withdraw His special PROTECTION. Without the heavenly protection, Satan could just take over. And that's what he did!! Satan took over dominion of the earth. Satan has been messing things up ever since. Satan's dominion over earth will not be taken away until the judgment - described in Daniel 7. We currently live within Satan's dominion. We do receive special protection from the LORD, when we seek to obey Him. But even with that protection, there are times when the LORD allows Satan to test us. WHY? Is it because the LORD wants to give us bigger rewards? Is it because our faith needs to be demonstrated either publicly on earth, or to unfallen beings, or even to our individual selves? phkrause 1 Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whbae Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 What about Job's children? Were they unwilling victims or willing victims? Or were they not victims at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 We are such a small planet and there must be a million other worlds as large or larger than ours full of faithful, believing, loving righteous beings. So why do we think our problem is so huge that God would deny us a life. I have thought of this a lot and believe if our world didn't follow the evil one, then He would have had to make another until one of them did so He can finally show the dire results of disobedience and eliminate all the demons for ever. Outta Here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Separation from God is self-dependency. Clearly without God we can do nothing good (see John 15:5). Therefore self-dependency eventually leads to sin, which is the very opposite of agape. Rebellion is one characteristic of a u-turn agape (i.e., self-love). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 I never can understand it when people say "But Job was so blessed afterwards".......... He lost his family. His wife and children all dead. All so that one supernatural being could make a point to another......... The story of Job is one of the sickest things I have ever heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 And why? Why did these things happen to Job? Was he proud of his goodness? Was he self-satisfied with himself, much like the Pharisees of Christ's day? Did not Paul, before of his conversion, state that he was blameless before God's law? Well, Job did the same. The worse sin we can commit is the sin of unbelief. Why? It is the one sin God cannot forgive. Did the preconverted Paul (i.e, Saul) need Christ? No! He was a good man...he kept the law. Why did He need Christ's righteousness? Apparently God knew that in order to reach Job...in order to humble Job...He would have to retreat. God gives grace to the humble, but humbles those who exalt themselves. Job did it to himself. God simply retreated. Why? He didn't need God for he was a righteous man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 MT, good to hear from you! I have the same issues with some of the Biblical stories, I treat them the same as the parables, just a word lesson. They were understood and written down in the manner of the day, just like any other God of the day. I believe there was much fear in the lives of the people and the was their best understanding. JoeMo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 There was a long period in his life where Job's life completely sucked. Did he ever find out why? My read of scripture says "no". God basically told Job that it wasn't any of his business. It's obvious that Job retired comfortably in his old age; but I highly doubt that the devastating wounds caused by the loss of his original children and possessions; and his own extreme illness were ever completely healed. Jesus pleaded with the Father to take the cross away from Him. Did the Father do it? No. Unlike Job, though, Jesus knew why. Why should it be any different with us? Poop happens. Sometimes we know why; and sometimes we don't. Our job is to trust in God no matter what happens. If this wasn't an original thoughts forum, I would quote the lyrics to a song called I Will Trust in You by Lauren Daigle. I would highly recommend listening to it. It as appropriate for this topic. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Job knew why in the end, but I can't quote it here, so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 19, 2016 Members Share Posted June 19, 2016 I agree Robert, and he probably knew a lot sooner than we believe! One thing he did know for sure, is that he had a redeemer and would be raised to see his families once again Robert and JoeMo 2 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 CoA, In an earlier post you mentioned the possibility that some stories in the Bible (the story of Job, for example) might be a parable. I have also wondered this. Jesus continually spoke to the general public in parables. If Jesus is the Word (which I believe He is), could He not have spoken to us in parables in the OT as well? Was the story of Job really an historical truth, or is it a parable meant to teach us a spiritual truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Was the Apostle James writing of an imaginary figure in James 5:11? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Maybe James was talking about a real guy; maybe he was talking about the lesson in the story. I'm asking the question as well - real guy or character in a parable that teaches spiritual truth? Either way, it fits the definition of truth for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 JoeMo, for me it is a 'story', maybe based on real events, but in the long run I see it as teaching or attempting to tell people about trusting in God regardless of circumstances. I find it interesting how often times people become 'literalists' when they claim to take time, place and circumstances into their explanations of the Bible. As I have said many times.....perception, perception, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoarrge Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I see it as more or less analogous to why it's not necessarily a good idea to throw aid at a country suffering under a dysfunctional dictatorship (in this case, a world being governed by Satan). The people are in trouble and need help, yes, but at a certain point you're just enabling the regime, masking the need for revolution and prolonging the suffering. At that point it may be better to let people feel however much pain it takes to convince them of the need for a change in government. Not that it actually makes life any easier to understand this. Quote To be an agent of creation is to serve the Creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 19, 2016 Members Share Posted June 19, 2016 JoeMo, you make a good point. I have heard it from both sides. I know that most Jews believe it to be any allegory. But I've heard Doug Batchelor, I believe, and a few other Jewish Adventist pastors say that it is about a true person. Either way its a great lesson about how God and satan do there thing. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 It is clear James is speaking of Job; not a fictitious character. The same crowd that questions Job questions the creation account. The problem with the creation account being an allegory is that too many of the authors of the Scriptures refer to it as a fact. If not, call it what it is, but they never refer to it as a parable or allegory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 JoeMo, and what spiritual truth does it point to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Robert, you're falling into that assumption trap again.......questions about the Job story does not mean everyone is questioning the creation story. Life is only 'this or that' for those who think they know the whole story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I never said "everyone". Who is falling into traps, now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Robert, lets not quibble....you said the 'same crowd', I merely said that it is an assumption to presume such for all within that 'same crowd'. I have heard questions about the Job story all my life within the church and I have been a member my whole life. It is simply wrong to say if people question the story of Job than they also question the 'creation story'. As pointed out, regardless, the story teaches an important concept about trusting in God. Literal or parable, however viewed, the consensus has been just that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Ah, but the real life story isn't about trusting God, but repenting from one's self-righteous attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 1, 2016 Moderators Share Posted July 1, 2016 What if God had chosen to create only the beings whom He knew would obey and love Him? He could have done that, of course, but how would that have changed the universe and the perception that God's intelligent creatures have of God? CoAspen and phkrause 2 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Then He would have created robots.... phkrause, CoAspen and John317 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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