Reports are in about a transgendered person is the Elder at Hollywood SDA Church

[Stan]

Reports are in about a transgendered person is the Elder at Hollywood SDA Church.

Before other comments, I would like to say my heart and prayers go out to this person, and the family involved.

I worked with about 20 transgendered people in the late 1970's  10 years later not one of them was alive as reported to me. ALSO Johns Hopkin Medical Centre as reportedly stop doing the surgical procedures, as they had an 80% fail rate.

Very few people I know have had more of a painful lonely life than the transgendered I have met.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Stan
Should have been 10 years not 10 hours.

[John317]

Please watch the video on YouTube of the interview of the transgender SDA Elder, then share your thoughts about what you see and hear. 

   The video can be found under the title "Hollywood SDA Church's Transgender Elder."   The interview took place near the end of 2015.  

[Jeannieb43]

23 hours ago, Stan said:

Reports are in about a transgendered person is the Elder at Hollywood SDA Church.

Before other comments, I would like to say my heart and prayers go out to this person, and the family involved.

I worked with about 20 transgendered people in the late 1970's  10 hrs later not one of them was alive as reported to me. ALSO Johns Hopkin Medical Centre as reportedly stop doing the surgical procedures, as they had an 80% fail rate.

Very few people I know have had more of a painful lonely life than the transgendered I have met.

I think it's possible to become transgendered without having the reassignment surgery.   In other words, some trans people just change their lifestyles and clothing without physically changing.  I can't believe that becoming a trans person without surgery would cause anyone to die.    [Are you saying, Stan, that merely assuming the changed lifestyle causes people to die?   Or was it that the surgical procedures were so severe that people died from the surgeries?]

Of course, the whole lifestyle would be painful, if one had to live constantly dressed is clothing of one's opposite gender.   The stressful life would be overpowering, no doubt.

This Hollywood church elder certainly tells a strong experience, and tells it very tastefully.  She is enjoying a good Christian experience nowadays, there by teaching a S.S. class, and by serving others in her duties as an elder.

[John317]

I think it's probable that Stan was referring to trans people dying from suicide rather than from the surgery.   It would be extremely rare for anyone to die from the medical procedures.  I asked John Hopkins Medical Center about their reassignment surgery back in 1978, and was told that they were no longer doing it.  They advised me to make contact with another Medical Center.  The procedure itself is actually pretty safe.

[John317]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:10 PM, Stan said:

 

I worked with about 20 transgendered people in the late 1970's  10 hrs later not one of them was alive as reported to me.

Stan did you mean to say "10 yrs later"?  

I suspect you mean that 20 out of 20 died from depression and suicide.  Is that right? 

John Hopkins stopped doing the procedure because a very high percentage later changed their minds and/or were chronically depressed and ended up committing suicide. 

[Rossw]

On 6/30/2016 at 5:10 PM, Stan said:

Reports are in about a transgendered person is the Elder at Hollywood SDA Church.

Before other comments, I would like to say my heart and prayers go out to this person, and the family involved.

I worked with about 20 transgendered people in the late 1970's  10 hrs later not one of them was alive as reported to me. ALSO Johns Hopkin Medical Centre as reportedly stop doing the surgical procedures, as they had an 80% fail rate.

Very few people I know have had more of a painful lonely life than the transgendered I have met.

Shouldn't the obvious psychological issues of the transgender people preclude them from ordination?

The word transgender should not exist. How do we change x and y chromosomes? Sexually confused, maybe, but that would be a disorder. 

Under the guidelines of 1 Timothy 3 a transgender person cannot be an elder as any relationship they enter will be homosexual in nature. 

 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of [a]overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,temperate, prudent, respectable,hospitable, able to teach, 

Those are not attributes of the transgendered.

[Kevin H]

Rossw: What do you say about the people born with both sets of genitals? If the X Y issue can be complicated enough to produce both sets of genitals could there not be lesser complications from these that may not be as obvious to us?

[John317]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=Youtube--+Hollywood+SDA+Church%26%2339%3Bs+Transgender+Elder&vid=e1da1adff1f60975892850f85bdce100&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.V9eafeb02e1b8695e7e7557b5fb85a0e0%26pid%3D15.1%26h%3D168%26w%3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dc1jQjG60ii8&tit=Hollywood+SDA+Church%26%2339%3Bs+Transgender+Elder&c=0&h=168&w=300&l=1230&sigr=11bu0p9b4&sigt=11c4n7dm3&sigi=1325oa4th&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DYoutube--%2BHollywood%2BSDA%2BChurch%27s%2BTransgender%2BElder%26type%3D33160001005_hp_sp%26fp%3D1%26ei%3DUTF-8&sigb=13r2jrdg8&ct=p&age=1453281663&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=fp-comodo&tt=b

The above link is to the YouTube video we're discussing here.  

[John317]

I would also like to invite members of the forum to watch a video at the following link, which presents a reaction to the actions of the Hollywood SDA Church.  Do you agree with the video?  Or do you disagree with it?  If you disagree with it, please explain why.    https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=Youtube--+Hollywood+SDA+Church%26%2339%3Bs+Transgender+Elder&vid=9c80d9baf4d00d5bfbbbb9a8baa9a22d&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.V4390da2d5c7d3c9d608b7d9214bb6f11%26pid%3D15.1%26h%3D168%26w%3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DwWufGzqNH_A&tit=First+open+Transgender+SDA+Elder+under+Pastor+Stoltz%2C+Hollywood+Church!+Is+this+the+First+of+many%3F&c=1&h=168&w=300&l=2011&sigr=11bmdjsrf&sigt=13254pb54&sigi=1321mv63k&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DYoutube--%2BHollywood%2BSDA%2BChurch%27s%2BTransgender%2BElder%26type%3D33160001005_hp_sp%26fp%3D1%26ei%3DUTF-8&sigb=13r2jrdg8&ct=p&age=1452287917&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=fp-comodo&tt=b

[Stan]

10 hours ago, John317 said:

Stan did you mean to say "10 yrs later"?  

I suspect you mean that 20 out of 20 died from depression and suicide.  Is that right? 

John Hopkins stopped doing the procedure because a very high percentage later changed their minds and/or were chronically depressed and ended up committing suicide. 

Sorry for the delay, I was one the road...  yes it was to be 10 years later, will correct that.. thanks

[Rossw]

9 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Rossw: What do you say about the people born with both sets of genitals? If the X Y issue can be complicated enough to produce both sets of genitals could there not be lesser complications from these that may not be as obvious to us?

Genital disorders do not change the x and y genetics that decide the sex. 

[Outta Here]

Hre's an interesting read on XX,XY,ZZ, and ZW and so on...http://futurism.com/scientists-bred-male-mice-no-y-chromosomes-can-still-reproducee/

Nevermind. This really isn't the place for that. Sorry.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

Rossw:  The typical person if commonly thought to have either a XX or a XY chromosome configuration.  As a matter of fact, some people do not have that configuration.  Further, some people have both a XX and a XY configuration.  When this happens, different organs in the body may differ.  E.G.  Some organs may have a XX configuration while other organs have and XY configuration. This fact is well known in criminal law and forensic science.

I have posted on this in the past and in that post I provided sources for people to go to learn about it.  So, if you want to know more, go back to those sources.

Earlier you said, below:

The bottom line, Rossw, the actual fact is that some people do not have a genetic configuration that is a match to their genital configuration.  Further,  the internal genital configuration may not match their external genital configuration.

 

The word transgender should not exist. How do we change x and y chromosomes? Sexually confused, maybe, but that would be a disorder. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I believe that Aurbrey referenced and interesting article.  She crossed it out.  I have removed that and I am posting it without that crossout for you to reference if you wish.

http://futurism.com/scientists-bred-male-mice-no-y-chromosomes-can-still-reproduce/

[Rossw]

7 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

 

Rossw:  The typical person if commonly thought to have either a XX or a XY chromosome configuration.  As a matter of fact, some people do not have that configuration.  Further, some people have both a XX and a XY configuration.  When this happens, different organs in the body may differ.  E.G.  Some organs may have a XX configuration while other organs have and XY configuration. This fact is well known in criminal law and forensic science.

I have posted on this in the past and in that post I provided sources for people to go to learn about it.  So, if you want to know more, go back to those sources.

Earlier you said, below:

The bottom line, Rossw, the actual fact is that some people do not have a genetic configuration that is a match to their genital configuration.  Further,  the internal genital configuration may not match their external genital configuration.

 

 

 

 

Are those normal or abnormal conditions?

[Rossw]

Does the person in Hollywood have a psychological identity problem or a chromosomal malfunction? 

[Rossw]

Either way, they are not fit for church leadership.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw asked below:

There is no one specific answer to thee muptiple conditions that I referenced.   Much will be determilend by ones definition of "normal" and "abnormal.  In one sense of the word, to be abnormal simply means that it is not in the majority.  With this in mind, many people today have anatomical and other condition that are outside of the majority and are therefore abnormal.

E.G. Any standard text on human anatomy will teach that a human has two (2) ureters, one that descends from each kidney.  Yet, this is not true fore each human person.  I have a relative who  had three (3) ureters.  One of his kidneys had two.

We are learning that it is more common that has ever been imagined that a single human being may have some organs that have an XY configuration and some other organs that have an XX configuration.  I do not believe that our understanding of this has reached the place where we have any valid ides as to the per-centage of people who have this issue.

So from this perspective, I do not believe that one can give a valid answer tko your question as to what is normal and what is abnormal.  To respond to that one would have to have data and gene studies to back up the conclusions.    What woman, for example, would be willing to participate in a study that required a tissue sampel from her uterus as well as other parts of her body?

 

Quote

Are those normal or abnormal conditions?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw made the statement that I have copied below:

If I understand him correctly, he is saying that church leadership should depend in part on a chromosomal study.    I am simply dumbfounded. 

would this be required of everyone?  If not, what would be the criteria used to determine whether or not the chromosomal study should be done.  

 

As a congregational SDA pastor I once had in my congregation a 40 year-old person with an abnormality on chromosome 21.   He was faithful in attending church services.  He was faithful in attempting to convert people to Adventism.  Should Rossw say that such a person should not be a congregational leader?

I am thinking right now of a congregation where I have been a member.  That SDA Congregation has a person who has a major problem.  A couple of years back the congregation ordained that person as a deacon, which is a church leadership position.  This person operates on a very reduced intellectual, physical and social level.  Yet that congregation actively seeks to train and use him wherever possible.  He is presently an ordained deacon.

 Personally, I would have to say that if this is the criteria for church leadership, both Rossw and I would likely be disqualified as we probably have a chromosomal structure that is far from the heavenly ideal.

 

Quote

Either way, they are not fit for church leadership.

[Rossw]

The mystery is your inability to tell the difference between a man and a woman. I don't mean that statement to be rude but the fact of the matter is most people know whether they are male or female. God created man and woman. We know those are the 2 options but if there is any ambiguity we can genetically identify between a man and woman. 

If you can't tell the "elder" in Hollywood is a man with psycho issues then...

[Rossw]

9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I believe that Aurbrey referenced and interesting article.  She crossed it out.  I have removed that and I am posting it without that crossout for you to reference if you wish.

http://futurism.com/scientists-bred-male-mice-no-y-chromosomes-can-still-reproduce/

I'm not sure the relevancy of the article although it is interesting. The male species would be undesirable and not be able to reproduce. If their "sperm" were artificially inseminated to a woman the male offspring would be sterile. Have there been xx males occurring in nature that were able to reproduce?

The flip side is if there is such thing as a woman with xy chromosomes? You may say they may identify as a man but that would not be the same thing. That'd be a psycho issue. 

[Rossw]

Greg, is the "elder" in Hollywood a man?

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw made the followings comment:

Rossw,I do not think that you were rude in your statement, just ignorant.

The fact of the matter is that many people today do not know whether or not they are male or female.

The fact of the matter is that we often cannot genetically identify between a male and a female.

Rossw, those are facts.

Tell me:  A person with an external male  organ and an internal female organ, may not be quickly identified as to sex.  Please tell me which you believe they are.

We today know far beyond the simple day in which all people were either XX or XY.

 

 

The mystery is your inability to tell the difference between a man and a woman. I don't mean that statement to be rude but the fact of the matter is most people know whether they are male or female. God created man and woman. We know those are the 2 options but if there is any ambiguity we can genetically identify between a man and woman. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw asked, below:

I have no knowledge of this situation.  I know nothing about it.  I cannot comment on it as I do not know.

But, I do know this that the SDA  denomination is moving toward a position that we should deal carefully and with pastoral concern to such people.

Greg, is the "elder" in Hollywood a man?

[Gregory Matthews]

Until I read it her in CA, I did not know anything about the Hollywood congregation election of a transgendered person to a position of leadership.

I have declined to comment on it, even if asked to do so by Rossw simply becassue I did not know anything about it.  I did not know if it was a male to female transition or if it was a female to male transition.  I felt that I should not comment on anything about it due to my total ignorance.

However, I can well imagine that there are many people commenting about it who do not have any personal knowledge about that specific situaiton.  This total lack of knowledge, to me, is a red flag that says keep your mouth shut until you have some knowledge.

There have been in recent times several published works that have addressed the issue of sexuality and SDAs to include transgendered people.  It might be of real value for a discussion of these works, as long as people do not cut and paste isolated sentences from these works.

I assume that the critics will soon (or are doing so now) calling for  the General Conference to enter the arena and discipline the Hollywood congregation.  Well, in actual policy, the GC does not have that authority.  Such authority lies on lower levels of denominational structure and is very limited in such a case.