Abortion...I would call this a theological issue

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Your saying that "self" equals "soul" does not make it Biblical--where do you find this in inspiration?  In fact, it rather sounds more like a Buddhist concept of the self.

A living being = a soul.

You are trying to give the soul a meaning that doesn't exist in the Bible, as if the soul were some component that lives on after one dies.

 What you are really teaching is spiritualism.

[Robert]

8 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

The Bible definition of a souls is of a person who has breath.  The life of a fetus is supported, not by breath, but by the mother's blood.

God didn't put oxygen into the nostril's of Adam.  He gave Adam life and Adam became a living person (soul).  God called Adam's life into existence.  

Procreation was designed by God to give life and form another living being (soul).  It's just that uncomplicated. But you, Green, make it complicated....

[Gregory Matthews]

Nic said, below:

An examination of Genesis 2:7 establishes that when God created humanity He did more than just supply oxygen,  Rather, God supplied oxygen in a manner that His created being became capable of breathing on his own.  It was at that point that this new creation became under the Biblical definition a living soul.  The fact that an unborn fetus does receive oxygen through the mother's blood does not rise to the level of that ability to breath on its own. 

Green is more correct  than is Nic.

Amen, brother! What sustains life is oxygen. When God enabled Adam to breathe, he received a supply of oxygen. The same is true about the unborn. When conception takes place, oxygen is supplied to the unborn through the placenta.

 

[Outta Here]

279 posts and there's still no definitive answer as to whether or not abortion of a fetus is a sin?

Come on, people. Do you think you'll ever see eye to eye?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

No.  There is a hard core group of people on both sides who are not going to change their minds.

But, there are others who may be beginning to look at the issues.  For these people, the discussion is helpful in making up their minds.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

11 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Evidently, you are not a physician, nor do you have experience with the cases that may present for treatment.

Is killing an acceptable treatment? I would never choose a physician who believes in killing patients! Did Jesus ever kill one of the many sick people who came to him for help?

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

God supplied oxygen in a manner that His created being became capable of breathing on his own.  It was at that point that this new creation became under the Biblical definition a living soul. 

Gen 2:7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils (not oxygen, but rather ) the breath of life, and the man became a living being (soul)."

God made Adam from preexisting material and then gave him life.  "The breath of life" is a metaphor symbolizing God's creative, life-giving power. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Regardless, according to the Genesis account that human being became a living soul at the point time that the human being became able to breath on its own.

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Regardless, according to the Genesis account that human being became a living soul at the point time that the human being became able to breath on its own.

 

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Adam was fully formed and then God gave him life.  That life is then passed  to the next generation through procreation. 

 

[Robert]

Green, you quoted Christ as saying, “Do not fear him who can kill the body..., but fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”

Didn’t Ellen White state that some wouldn’t be raised to meet the second death? 

My point,  Mr. Green?   You treat “the soul” as if it were independent of the body and therefore "the soul" lives on after the death of the body.

Then please tell me what happens to the souls of those who get to skip out on hell?  

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

 Adam was fully formed and then God gave him life.  That life is then passed to the next generation through procreation. 

 

Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he (Levi) was yet in the loins of his father (Abraham), when Melchisedec met him.

Did you catch that? Levi was “still in the loins” of Abraham, his great-grandfather, when he handed over the tithe to Melchizedek. Therefore, what Abraham did, Levi did, though Levi himself still had to travel from Abraham’s loins to Isaac’s loins to Jacob’s loins, into and out of the womb of Leah, before he would utter his natal cry. 

Therefore Levi existed when God made Adam. 

"He (God) has made from one blood (keep in mind that "the life is in the blood") every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth" Acts 17:27

 

 

[APL]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Regardless, according to the Genesis account that human being became a living soul at the point time that the human being became able to breath on its own.

The Genesis account God takes lifeless clay and makes it alive.  A fetus is not a lifeless lump of clay,  it is alive and participating is respiration.

[Bravus]

Part of the problem is too much simplistic, black-and-white thinking.

I have shared here before that my wife had an abortion. Our first child was anencephalic: she had no head above the nose line. We discovered this relatively early in the pregnancy. She would not have survived birth, or lived after birth. God was not doing any miracles to fix this.

We made the incredibly difficult decision to terminate the pregnancy, rather than to risk my wife's life and make her carry through an entire pregnancy with a baby who was already for all purposes dead.

I would hope others would not judge us for our decision, and I would seek to avoid judging others who are placed in similar impossible situations.

I am against abortion for purely contraceptive purposes, but that does not mean I would call myself and my wife, or people like us, murderers. 

We live in a fallen world. Ideals are important, but sometimes the world does not fit.

[Robert]

I have always stated that I'm against abortion used as birth control where you have a healthy mom and a healthy infant.

[Green Cochoa]

17 hours ago, Nic Samojluk said:

Is killing an acceptable treatment? I would never choose a physician who believes in killing patients! Did Jesus ever kill one of the many sick people who came to him for help?

Did you read David's post?  I would have to say that, yes, sometimes killing is an acceptable treatment.  Again, your earlier post showed your inexperience in terms of possible cases that may present for treatment at a medical facility.  To make abortion illegal would be to force misery and woe on countless women in similar situations to that of David and his wife.  Thank you, David, for being willing to divulge personal experiences like that to help educate people here.

3 hours ago, David Geelan said:

Part of the problem is too much simplistic, black-and-white thinking.

I have shared here before that my wife had an abortion. Our first child was anencephalic: she had no head above the nose line. We discovered this relatively early in the pregnancy. She would not have survived birth, or lived after birth. God was not doing any miracles to fix this.

We made the incredibly difficult decision to terminate the pregnancy, rather than to risk my wife's life and make her carry through an entire pregnancy with a baby who was already for all purposes dead.

I would hope others would not judge us for our decision, and I would seek to avoid judging others who are placed in similar impossible situations.

I am against abortion for purely contraceptive purposes, but that does not mean I would call myself and my wife, or people like us, murderers. 

We live in a fallen world. Ideals are important, but sometimes the world does not fit.

Yours is not the only case where a good outcome is impossible, and abortion is actually the best answer.  Many have similar experiences.  A little online reading would pull some up, for anyone willing to look into it.  God created us with a built-in ability to self-abort (miscarry) a defective fetus.  That should give us pause.  Sometimes, nature doesn't do what it is supposed to, and manual interventions are necessary.  I'm glad our Adventist hospitals don't just turn their eyes away from these needs, but are willing to offer proper medical services to women needing abortions.

In cases like David's, how would the couple feel to be required, by law, to wait 72 hours, or to receive some form of anti-abortion counseling before making the choice to abort, or how would they feel if they had not had an ultrasound and discovered the problem until after the first trimester had passed, and the abortion was now illegal?  Again, I am not pro-abortion.  I am anti-legislation on the matter, for good reason. 

[Nic Samojluk]

7 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

I would have to say that, yes, sometimes killing is an acceptable treatment.

Do you disclose to your patients that your view is that killing a patient is sometimes an morally acceptable treatment?

[Nic Samojluk]

7 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

She would not have survived birth, or lived after birth.

Girl born without a brain is now 6 years old

“April Barrett’s daughter, Kaliysha, was born with hydranencephaly, a rare condition that left her without a brain. Despite doctor’s dismal expectations, Kaliysha is now 6 years old and has managed to survive with only a partially functioning brain stem. …”

http://launch.newsinc.com/share.html?trackingGroup=69016&siteSection=wxin_news&videoId=31391693 

[Nic Samojluk]

7 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Sometimes, nature doesn't do what it is supposed to, and manual interventions are necessary.

Nature does often kill people through tornadoes, floods, and tsunamis, but I hope that you will agree with me that imitating what nature does is not a good policy.

[Nic Samojluk]

7 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

I'm glad our Adventist hospitals don't just turn their eyes away from these needs, but are willing to offer proper medical services to women needing abortions.

Do you agree with the Adventist policy regarding abortion services? In 1970 the church embraced elective abortions in our Adventist hospitals. Was this policy right or wrong? Thousands of innocent unborn babies were slaughtered in some of SDA hospitals.

If this was wrong, did the church ever apologize for these murders? Does God offer forgiveness without repentance and confession?

Even today, most of our SDA hospitals follow the Adventist guidelines on abortion which justify the killing of perfectly formed unborn babies under a variety of circumstance such as when the father of the baby was a rapist--we let the criminal rapist live but kill the innocent baby. Is this justice.

Those guidelines also justify abortion if the pregnancy affects the mental health of the woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Does a temporary woman's mental depression justify the permanent baby's deprivation of life? Are you happy with such a twisted moral policy?:

[Green Cochoa]

3 minutes ago, Nic Samojluk said:

If this was wrong, did the church ever apologize for these murders?

Other than vagaries and opinions, or texts of scripture wrested from their proper context, I have yet to see a clear "thus saith the LORD" that says an abortion is murder.  Can you establish this, or are you labeling it as such on the strength of mere emotions?

Was it wrong for David to kill Goliath?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Samuel to kill Agag? Why or why not?

Was it wrong for God to kill Uzzah?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Elijah to call down fire on the soldiers?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Elijah to kill the prophets of Baal?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Jael to kill Sisera?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for the angel to kill Senacherib's huge army?  Why or why not?

Were all of the above "murder"?  Why or why not?

 

 

[Nic Samojluk]

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

Other than vagaries and opinions, or texts of scripture wrested from their proper context, I have yet to see a clear "thus saith the LORD" that says an abortion is murder.

Since you elected not to answer my questions, then I have decided to likewise ignore yours!

[Green Cochoa]

41 minutes ago, Nic Samojluk said:

Since you elected not to answer my questions, then I have decided to likewise ignore yours!

Hopefully your reason is as good as mine.  I've had extreme technical difficulties here today with just getting online and even getting my email.  Sorry that I have been unable to answer more than this.  It's the middle of the night now, I'm very tired, and I need to be crossing the border about 6 am.  Good night!

[Nic Samojluk]

19 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

 Sorry that I have been unable to answer more than this.

Take your time!

[APL]

3 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Other than vagaries and opinions, or texts of scripture wrested from their proper context, I have yet to see a clear "thus saith the LORD" that says an abortion is murder.  Can you establish this, or are you labeling it as such on the strength of mere emotions?

Was it wrong for David to kill Goliath?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Samuel to kill Agag? Why or why not?

Was it wrong for God to kill Uzzah?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Elijah to call down fire on the soldiers?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Elijah to kill the prophets of Baal?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Jael to kill Sisera?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for the angel to kill Senacherib's huge army?  Why or why not?

Were all of the above "murder"?  Why or why not?

Do you believe that these stories are an expression of God's ideal?  Do you believe that God intended Israel to fight their way into Canaan?  Do you believe that it was God's ideal that Israel have a king to rule over them?  How did it all turn on in then end for Israel?  Should we today be killing the enemies of God?  Why or why not? 

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Was it wrong for David to kill Goliath?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Samuel to kill Agag? Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Elijah to call down fire on the soldiers?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Elijah to kill the prophets of Baal?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Jael to kill Sisera?  Why or why not?

Were all of the above "murder"?  Why or why not?

God never intended Israel to have a visible king, He did not reject them when they claimed one. And their motive for this perfidy? "That we may be like all the nations" (1 Samuel 8:19). God warned them of the results of their choice, but He did not reject them for it. Did they, early on, desire to wage war "like" the Egyptians?

     But in the case of their choosing a king, God expressed His disapproval. Do we have a Biblical example where humans defied God's ideal will without His expressing disapproval and also without rejecting them for it? Yes. In their practice of slavery and polygamy, which most Christians now agree were not in God's original plan.

     Polygamy was so common among God's people in the Old Testament, examples need not be cited. Again, they thought to be "like" the surrounding nations, even though they knew God's perfect will for monogamous marriage had been beautifully expressed in the beginning (Genesis 2:20-24). But they chose to focus on their visible neighbors rather than on the invisible God, and beholding changed them into the same image (2 Corinthians 3:18). But nowhere do we find God railing against polygamy, although Christians today, with few exceptions, see the wrong of it.

     The same could be said for slavery. The case against slavery rests upon God's commitment to the freedom and free will of His creatures. Both slavery and polygamy were God's permitted will for an antique age, never His ideal.

     Could the Israelites themselves have chosen a military defense against God's ideal will, without His rejecting them for it, and also without Bible comment? The standard of Christ's character and three Biblical examples answer, Yes.

Chapter 9,   "Light on the Dark Side of God"