Abortion...I would call this a theological issue

[Stan]

Am curious what the end goal for this is?

Has this subject ever been brought up here or any other place on the internet?

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Was it wrong for the angel to kill Senacherib's huge army?  Why or why not?

Who destroyed the firstborn of Egypt?

One Perspective “I [God] will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast, and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12).

Another Perspective “For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer  to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23).

                                   

Note what took place when God struck Miriam with leprosy: 

                 So the anger of the Lord was aroused against them, and He departed. And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow  (Numbers 12:9, 10). 

     What did God do when he became angry? He departed. Only then did Miriam appear leprous.

 *          "Uzza put out his hand to hold the ark . . . Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzza, and He struck him because he put his hand to the ark, and he died there before God  (1 Chronicles 13:9, 10). 

*          That same night the angel of Yahweh went out and struck down a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp  (Isaiah 37:36; 2 Kings 19:35, JB). 

*          While the meat was still between their teeth . . . the wrath of the Lord was aroused against the people, and the Lord struck the people with a very great plague. . . . There they buried the people who had yielded to craving  (Numbers 11:33, 34). 

*          Then Ananias . . . fell down and breathed his last. . . . Then immediately she [Sapphira] fell down . . . and breathed her last  (Acts 5:5, 10). 

     If God's wrath in other places is His removing Himself from the arena of willful, entrenched sin, why isn't it here?

     If God's striking the firstborn of Egypt, the patriarch Job, and His own Son entailed releasing them to the power of the destroyer, why isn't it the same here? and other places as well?  Would not the results be the same? If you cannot agree that God's role in all these incidents is consistent and in harmony with His changelessness (See Malachi 3:6), you assume the burden of proving it is not.

    

[Taken from Light on the Dark Side of God]

[Robert]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

Am curious what the end goal for this is?

Has this subject ever been brought up here or any other place on the internet?

Just two different views being expressed....

[Bravus]

It's a difficult and, I think, important question.

It's just frustrating that, on this as on so many topics, the difficulty and complexity is submerged, and we're back to two armed camps lobbing grenades and preaching to the choir (to mangle a metaphor).

[APL]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Am curious what the end goal for this is?

Has this subject ever been brought up here or any other place on the internet?

 

2 hours ago, Robert said:

Just two different views being expressed....

To Stan - it is call the Gospel - The Good News -  The Everlasting Gospel - it is part of the 3 Angels Messages.

Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth. He had caused truth of vital importance to be so mingled with error that it had lost its significance. The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

 

The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

... 

In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}

 

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

 

This is a truth that MANY want to ignore or hide. Satan is the destroyer, not God. God is not a killer.

 

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3}

 

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isaiah 40:9,10. {COL 415.4}

 

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. {COL 415.5}

[Robert]

On 9/15/2016 at 11:43 AM, Green Cochoa said:

Other than vagaries and opinions, or texts of scripture wrested from their proper context, I have yet to see a clear "thus saith the LORD" that says an abortion is murder. 

Was it wrong for David to kill Goliath?  Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Samuel to kill Agag? Why or why not?

Was it wrong for Jael to kill Sisera?  Why or why not?

As to David, Samuel and other militaristic actions, God never intended Israel to have a visible king. They wanted to be like the other nations" (1 Samuel 8:19). 

 God repeatedly informed His people that He had no need of their swords (See, for example, Joshua 24:11,12; Psalm 44:3; Ezekiel 33:26).

 

[Robert]

On 9/14/2016 at 11:28 AM, Robert said:

Green, you quoted Christ as saying, “Do not fear him who can kill the body..., but fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell”

Didn’t Ellen White state that some wouldn’t be raised to meet the second death? 

My point,  Mr. Green?   You treat “the soul” as if it were independent of the body and therefore "the soul" lives on after the death of the body.

Then please tell me what happens to the souls of those who get to skip out on hell?  

Still waiting an answer....

[Robert]

On 9/15/2016 at 11:43 AM, Green Cochoa said:

Other than vagaries and opinions, or texts of scripture wrested from their proper context, I have yet to see a clear "thus saith the LORD" that says an abortion is murder....

Was it wrong for God to kill Uzzah?  Why or why not?

 2 Sam 6:6 ...Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. 7 Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.8  And David became angry because of the Lord’s outbreak against Uzzah...9 David was afraid of the Lord...

• Uzzah took hold of the ark because the oxen stumbled
• God stuck him and Uzzah died. 
• David became angry at the Lord for striking Uzzah down
• David was afraid of the Lord.

There's not enough information in the above to come to any conclusion.  However, 1 Chronicles 13:6 does state that God the Lord [was] "enthroned between the cherubim" in the Ark of the Covenant.  

"The fate of Uzzah was a divine judgment upon the violation of a most explicit command. Through Moses the Lord had given special instruction concerning the transportation of the ark. None but the priests, the descendants of Aaron, were to touch it, or even to look upon it uncovered. The divine direction was, "The sons of Kohath shall come to bear it: but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die." Numbers 4:15. The priests were to cover the ark, and then the Kohathites must lift it by the staves, which were placed in rings upon each side of the ark and were never removed. To the Gershonites and Merarites, who had in charge the curtains and boards and pillars of the tabernacle, Moses gave carts and oxen for the transportation of that which was committed to them. "But unto the sons of Kohath he gave none: because the service of the sanctuary belonging unto them was that they should bear upon their shoulders." Numbers 7:9. Thus in the bringing of the ark from Kirjath-jearim there had been a direct and inexcusable disregard of the Lord's directions. David and his people had assembled to perform a sacred work, and they had engaged in it with glad and willing hearts; but the Lord could not accept the service, because it was not performed in accordance with His directions."  PP 705, 706

According to Ellen White "Upon Uzzah rested the greater guilt of presumption".  

Does the Bible state that Uzzah was presumptuous? I don't know, but it sounds reasonable.  

Uzzah died because he, a sinner, physically came in to contact with God's presence.  That's why he died.  

Ex 33:20 states that no one can look upon God and live.  Why?  We are sinners...

Uzzah died, not because God got angry as we define it, but because He came into contact with Divinity.  That's the way I see this story. 

[Robert]

Quote

Was it wrong for the angel to kill Senacherib's huge army?  Why or why not?

Now this one is a bit more difficult.  Here's the context:

After Hezekiah prayed to God for deliverance from Sennacherib king of Assyria, Isaiah the prophet came before Hezekiah saying:

“Thus says the Lord God of Israel: "Because you have prayed to Me against Sennacherib king of Assyria, I have heard....He [Sennacherib] shall not come into this city, Nor shoot an arrow there, Nor come before it with shield, Nor build a siege mound against it. 33 By the way that he came, By the same shall he return; And he shall not come into this city,’ Says the Lord. 34 ‘For I will defend this city, to save it for My own sake and for My servant David’s sake." [2 Kings 19:20,32-34 NKJV]

verse 35 "And it came to pass on a certain night that the angel of the Lord went out, and killed (smote) in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead. 36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and went away, returned home, and remained at Nineveh.

How did "the angel of the Lord" destroy Senacherib's army? 

Perhaps we have some clues, from other examples, where angels came into contact with men:

"Terrible fear seized the guard (i.e., the Roman guards). Where now was their power to keep the body of Jesus? They did not think of their duty, or of the disciples stealing Him away. They were amazed and affrighted, as the exceeding bright light of the angels shone all around brighter than the sun. The Roman guard saw the angels, and fell as dead men to the ground."—Spiritual Gifts 1:66.

"The Roman guard ... were enabled to endure the sight, for they had a message to bear as witnesses of the resurrection of Christ."—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 5:1110.TA 209.5

"The mightiest angel from heaven, he who held the position from which Satan fell, received his commission from the Father, and clothed with the panoply of heaven, he parted the darkness from his track. His face was like the lightning, and his garments white as snow."—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 5:1110.TA 208.2

"One of the angelic host who had witnessed the scene of Jesus’ humiliation, and was watching His sacred resting place, joined the angel from heaven, and together they came down to the sepulcher. The earth shook and trembled as they approached, and there was a mighty earthquake."—Spiritual Gifts 1:66.

Here's my point:  The angel that smote Senacherib's army didn't necessarily do violence.  All this angel had to do was  to appear before them unveiled.  The glory of heaven was enough to cause their death. 

 

 

[Robert]

Of course this has nothing to do with abortion....

[Robert]

"I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.  3 And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”  4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him (i.e., the Seraphim) who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. [Isaiah 6:1-4 NASB]

Even the Seraphim cover their faces in the presence of God, yet they themselves have tremendous power. 

"...The glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto." [DA 20]

No one can see God and live.  That's why at the 2nd coming we who are living "must be changed".  Otherwise we too would die as do the wicked.