Abortion...I would call this a theological issue

[Green Cochoa]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

 Jesus values all life. 

On this we can agree.  He sees the sparrow fall, and even the loss of a single hair from one's head.

So, if I kill my dog, was it "murder"?

[Robert]

6 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea" (Matthew 18:6).

That is, if you will, an "adult abortion" which Jesus advocates here.  

Again, your off....your theology is missing the mark.

It would be better for an adult, who causes a child to lose faith in Christ, to drown in the depth of the sea then to face the 2nd death, the curse of the law.

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Green Cochoa said:

On this we can agree.  He sees the sparrow fall, and even the loss of a single hair from one's head.

So, if I kill my dog, was it "murder"?

I believe the Ten Commandments are about human interaction. 

However, there's good news for the animal kingdom:

Read Col 1:9 For it pleased the Father that in Him (Christ) all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

"All things" - all created things have been reconciled to God in Christ Jesus.  

Your dog as no worries if you kill him....

 

[Green Cochoa]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

Again, your off....your theology is missing the mark.

It would be better for an adult, who causes a child to lose faith in Christ, to drown in the depth of the sea then to face the 2nd death, the curse of the law.

Why did Jesus curse the fig tree?  To keep it from being resurrected at the last resurrection?

You need to contemplate these things seriously.  Your theology cannot answer some of these questions.  You believe God never does any harm.  A true Christian knows that God can and will destroy; that there is a limit to His forbearance.

 Noah, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house. He had that fear which should characterize the life of every Christian. The perfect faith of Noah intensified his fear. The threatened wrath of God, which was to fall upon man and beast, and upon the earth, led him to prepare the ark. His faith, and his fear of God's anger, produced obedience. Noah did not hesitate to obey God. He urged no excuse, that the labor of building that ark was great and expensive. He believed God, and invested in the ark all that he possessed, while the wicked world scoffed and made themselves merry at the deluded old man.  {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 15}  

Satan masquerades as an angel of light in our day to teach his sophistries that God would never destroy.  This removes our fear, and obviates our obedience to God.  As long as you choose to believe that God will never punish, you accept Satan's lies.

[Robert]

13 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

 I don't have a TV.  But I have my Bible.

I could really deliver a good zinger, but....

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Why did Jesus curse the fig tree?  To keep it from being resurrected at the last resurrection?

Trees aren't resurrected....

[Green Cochoa]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

Trees aren't resurrected....

Good point.  I'm glad you knew that.   Then what was the purpose of cursing it?

[Robert]

4 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

The threatened wrath of God, which was to fall upon man and beast, and upon the earth, led him to prepare the ark. His faith, and his fear of God's anger, produced obedience. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 15}

Love to God is the very foundation of religion. To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment (i.e., God's wrath) would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship. PP 523.1

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Good point.  I'm glad you knew that.   Then what was the purpose of cursing it?

...It was an object lesson....Keep to subject..

[Green Cochoa]

27 minutes ago, Robert said:

I hope that you really don't believe this nonsense...Perhaps you watched too many episodes of the Twilight Zone?

What you are doing is justifying murder.  This sounds like something Hitler would have formulated. If you are depending on your mother's oxygen then you are soulless - so murder is okay.

Your theology appears to be built upon a series of misdefinitions.  Perhaps you would like to clarify what "murder" means to you, and we can go from there.

[Robert]

12 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Perhaps you would like to clarify what "murder" means to you, and we can go from there.

1. A man gets a woman pregnant.
2. The woman is going to college.  
3. The pregnancy will probably cost her a future income because she now has a new responsibility.
4. The man loves himself - so he abandons her. He just likes to have sex; not be responsible.
5. She loves herself too and decides the infant has to die
6. She has the infant murdered by an abortionist.
7. The law of the land states it is okay
8. God's law calls it murder.  
9. If she persistently refuses to repent of her sin she will get what is coming to her
10. What's due her is eternal damnation - the 2nd death - the curse of the law.

 

[Green Cochoa]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

1. A man gets a woman pregnant.
2. The woman is going to college.  
3. The pregnancy will probably cost her a future income because she now has a new responsibility.
4. The man loves himself - so he abandons her. He just likes to have sex; not be responsible.
5. She loves herself too and decides the infant has to die
6. She has the infant murdered by an abortionist.
7. The law of the land states it is okay
8. God's law calls it murder.  
9. If she persistently refuses to repent of her sin she will get what is coming to her
10. Eternal damnation - the 2nd death - the curse of the law.

 

Where is your "thus saith the LORD" for #8.  You have styled this topic as being that of "a theological issue."  Your post above shows only opinion.  Are you willing to support it from scripture?

[Robert]

5 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Where is your "thus saith the LORD" for #8.  You have styled this topic as being that of "a theological issue."  Your post above shows only opinion.  Are you willing to support it from scripture?

If you can't figure out that an infant, in its mother's womb, is a human being then no amount of scripture will convince you. You lack common sense.  Perhaps you are just too intellectual for your own good?

[Green Cochoa]

8 minutes ago, Robert said:

If you can't figure out that an infant, in its mother's womb, is a human being then no amount of scripture will convince you. You lack common sense.  Perhaps you are just too intellectual for your own good?

And you are too opinionated for your own good.  If it is so obvious to you from the scriptures, it should be easy to provide at least a text or two.  Mrs. White tells me to demand a "thus saith the LORD" for every doctrine, so I am following my duty in asking for this.

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert, you are losing the battle with Green due to the fact that you are making personal attacks and failing to provide solid Scriptural support for much of your positions.

Green may be wrong and there are those who would disagree with him.  But, he is doing a better job of defending himself from the Bible than you.

As Green said, you have failed on your # 8.

 

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Robert, you are losing the battle with Green due to the fact that you are making personal attacks and failing to provide solid Scriptural support for much of your positions.

Green may be wrong and there are those who would disagree with him.  But, he is doing a better job of defending himself from the Bible than you.

As Green said, you have failed on your # 8.

 

That's your opinion...

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Where is your "thus saith the LORD" for #8.  You have styled this topic as being that of "a theological issue."  Your post above shows only opinion.  Are you willing to support it from scripture?

Ex 20:13  “You shall not murder."

Amos 1:13 This is what the Lord says: “The people of Ammon have sinned again and again, and I will not let them go unpunished! When they attacked Gilead to extend their borders, they ripped open pregnant women with their swords.

[Robert]

10 hours ago, Robert said:

• If she persistently refuses to repent of her sin she will get what is coming to her
• What's due her is eternal damnation - the 2nd death - the curse of the law.

It would have been better for this woman, if she persisted in an unrepentant state, not to have been born then to face the 2nd death and eternal separation.

It would be better for her if her mom experienced a miscarriage.  At least this way she would be safe in Christ Jesus and have eternal life.

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Ex 20:13  “You shall not murder."

Amos 1:13 This is what the Lord says: “The people of Ammon have sinned again and again, and I will not let them go unpunished! When they attacked Gilead to extend their borders, they ripped open pregnant women with their swords.

Certainly, people who murder pregnant women should not go unpunished.  Any murder will be punished.  But these verses do not say that an abortion is murder.

Important question:  Is a miscarriage "murder"?

 

[8thdaypriest]

My $.02

Exodus 21:22 "If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman's husband and confirmed by judges. (Exo 21:22 CJB)

No death penalty here. 

Exodus 21:22 "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely1 but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. (NIV)

The Talmud tells us that the "fine" was levied only if it could be determined that the fetus was male. 

This passage DOES NOT EQUATE the life of the fetus, with the life of the mother.  It looks like - if there was no one to levy a "fine", then that's the end of it. 

If the mother was actually harmed - then it became a different story.

Exodus 21:23 "But if any harm follows, then you are to give life for life" (CJB). 

People who blow up abortion clinics are the ones potentially committing "murder". 

I am NOT in favor of unrestricted abortion. 

I would actually be in favor of a shot, administered to 10 year old girls, which prevents conception until such time as an antidote shot is administered.  Those desiring parenthood would have to prove they were ready to love AND support a child. 

 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Certainly, people who murder pregnant women should not go unpunished.  Any murder will be punished.  But these verses do not say that an abortion is murder.

The people of Ammon murdered two lives, not one.  

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I would actually be in favor of a shot, administered to 10 year old girls, which prevents conception until such time as an antidote shot is administered.  Those desiring parenthood would have to prove they were ready to love AND support a child. 

Sounds good...but it will never happen.

[Robert]

 

 

6 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Important question:  Is a miscarriage "murder"?

Let’s get off the merry-go-round and face the reality of your theological conclusion on abortion.

Abortion is not murder.  Therefore it’s not sin. 

Aborting an infant, in the safety of its mother’s womb, is fine.

So, all your pregnant moms, if your baby is not going to have a good life, terminate the pregnancy.  God approves.  It's fine.  Be happy....

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Robert said:

So, all your pregnant moms, if your baby is not going to have a good life, terminate the pregnancy.  God approves.  It's fine.  Be happy....

And, if you decide to have your baby, great.  But remember, if times get hard and raising the little thing gets too hard or too expensive, put a pillow over its little face.  I mean, your baby needs a good life....Be happy.

Sarcasm is free this time, but next time I'll charge you.

[Green Cochoa]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

Let’s get off the merry-go-round and face the reality of your theological conclusion on abortion.

Abortion is not murder.  Therefore it’s not sin. 

Aborting an infant, in the safety of its mother’s womb, is fine.

So, all your pregnant moms, if your baby is not going to have a good life, terminate the pregnancy.  God approves.  It's fine.  Be happy....

Robert,

You make it appear that you believe only one sin exists: murder.  If I rape someone, it wasn't a sin because it wasn't murder.  Interesting logic, that, but you won't find me accepting it.

Is a miscarriage "murder"?