Prophetic Inspiration

[Gregory Matthews]

Green:  Is the 2010 CD the latest?  Does it have everything that has been published/  Are you certain that you are correct.  I am not backing down on this one.

In any case, take a look at the following, for which I have given a quote and a reference.  Are you telling us that the following is an inspired word from God that should be carried out by everyone.  Areyou telling me that I should have dressed my son in red plaid"

 

She wrote it and it has been published.  did you find it?  You need to check a bit deeper.  My story about the red dress exists and it has been published.   But, due to your definitive statement, I will let you find it.

 

Buy Willie, down street, enough black and

red plaid at two dollars per yard for Willie’s two shirts. Make these shirts liberal, plain on the back, pleated front, like his calico shirts, and put buttons on them like his calico shirts. Then make him two shirts of that thin bleached cloth to wear underneath. Make the flannel just as pretty as you can, with a little collar about the neck bound with black silk or braid. This will save making two or three waists. Anna might make one waist out of that cloak I mentioned to Annie, or out of that coat of Willie’s. Save the lining of the cape to that cloak for I shall make another like that and shall use that lining. {Lt5-1865.6}

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

Honestly, I have, until today, stayed out of this topic.  This topic is but a prime opportunity for people to speak foolishness.

Both in the [Battle Creek] Tabernacle and in the college the subject of inspiration has been taught, and finite men have taken it upon themselves to say that some things in the Scriptures were inspired and some were not. I was shown that the Lord did not inspire the articles on inspiration published in the Review, [REFERENCE HERE IS TO A SERIES OF ARTICLES THE WRITER OF WHICH ADVOCATED THAT THERE WERE "DIFFERENCES IN DEGREES" OF INSPIRATION. SEE THE REVIEW AND HERALD, JAN. 15, 1884.--COMPILERS.] neither did He approve their endorsement before our youth in the college. When men venture to criticize the Word of God, they venture on sacred, holy ground, and had better fear and tremble and hide their wisdom as foolishness. God sets no man to pronounce judgment on His Word, selecting some things as inspired and discrediting others as uninspired. The testimonies have been treated in the same way; but God is not in this.--Letter 22, 1889.  {1SM 23.1} 

That said, we are counseled to work patiently with those who do not yet accept the published Writings.

Some, I was shown, could receive the published visions, judging of the tree by its fruits. Others are like doubting Thomas; they cannot believe the published Testimonies, nor receive evidence through the testimony of others; but must see and have the evidence for themselves. Such must not be set aside, but long patience and brotherly love should be exercised toward them until they find their position and become established for or against. If they fight against the visions, of which they have no knowledge; if they carry their opposition so far as to oppose that in which they have had no experience, and feel annoyed when those who believe that the visions are of God speak of them in meeting, and comfort themselves with the instruction given through vision, the church may know that they are not right. God's people should not cringe and yield, and give up their liberty to such disaffected ones. God has placed the gifts in the church that the church may be benefited by them; and when professed believers in the truth oppose these gifts, and fight against the visions, souls are in danger through their influence, and it is time then to labor with them, that the weak may not be led astray by their influence.  {1T 328.1} 

Note: Mrs. White makes clear that it is foolish to speak of degrees of inspiration, or of which parts of Scripture/her testimonies are inspired and which were not.  I hope none of us will quickly demonstrate our foolishness in this area.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, folk, the red dress story is true.  It has been published.  SInce Green denies it, I say:  Check out the "red shirt" above.  Whatever I said about the red dress applies to the red shirt story.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

If Green wants me to do so, I could come up with a very large amount of written material from EGW, that has been published, that simply deals with the common things of life.  Does Green really want me to d o such and if I did, would he say that such was inspired.

 

The point of my red dress story was that some people actually believe that such a statement of EGW, telling another woman that she looked good in red, was inspired by God.  The story is there, regardless of green ability to find it.

I am waiting to see if in his search for the red dress he found my red shirt story.  IF he did not, that clearly shows that his search was weak and inconclusive.

 

 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

9 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Yes, folk, the red dress story is true.  It has been published.  SInce Green denies it, I say:  Check out the "red shirt" above.  Whatever I said about the red dress applies to the red shirt story.

 

There is no plain "thus saith the LORD" to support your views, Gregory, that you have chosen to provide.  Why is that?  Neither the term "red dress" nor "red shirt" appear in Mrs. White's writings, per the CD which I have.  The CD has, to my knowledge, all of her published works, and many additional items that were still unpublished at the time of her passing which the White Estate has now made available.  I do not question the possible existence in the White Estate archives of more on this "red herring," however, those things are not "published" are they?

EDIT: As I wrote the above, the prior post of Gregory had not appeared on my screen.  I now see his mention of a story involving "red plaid."  That term also does not appear on my CD.  I might ask Gregory if he could check his CD for the number of records matching the single word "red." On mine it was 423.  I have the 2010 edition of the CD, which I believe has little changed from the 2008 edition.  If a newer edition exists, it would be kind of Gregory to provide us the information he has from it.   Who wrote the statement?  When and where was it published, and by whom?  

[Rossw]

Why was the "man and woman created equal" thread and all the stickys locked?

[Green Cochoa]

Well, I tracked it down: Gregory's "red shirt" red herring comes from an UNPUBLISHED letter--at least, not ever published by Mrs. White.  That should settle the matter.  Again, what she published is what we are to read and understand, obeying the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through it.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

My red shirt story came from a published source.  Green is wrong on this one.  Sorry, Green, you are not living up to the scholarship that I have expected of you.  Yes, it was a letter that EGW wrote.  I gave the EGW citation for that letter.  If you  follow up on that citation, you can verify its accuracy.  I could have given another source, but that would have been a human source.  That would have been rejected immediately, I suppose.   So, I only provided the EGW source.  Anyone reading here can follow up to the EGW source.

I point out that the so-called Testimonies consist largely of letters that EGW wrote.

Regardless of all of this:  There are people who believe that every word of EGW was inspired by God and suitable our instruction today.  There are others who do not believe this.

In my red shirt response, I could have copied and posted the entire letter.  Instead, I only copied one paragraph.  It might have been instructive for me to have posted the entire letter.  It clearly made my point.

[Gregory Matthews]

In the interests of honesty, scholarship and integrity, I must acknowledge that Green is more correct than I thought.

 The red dress story is well documented to include such as the EGW Estate, and others.  It has been published multiple times, including the EGW Estate.

However, the documentation for it is founded upon 2nd hand sources, rather than an original writing of Ellen White.  The White Estate considers these multiple sources to be reliable.

Green is more correct and I am less correct than I once stated.  I thank Green for calling me on it an therefore giving me an opportunity to be more accurate in the future.

As I am doing now, when I come to believe that I am wrong in even a small point, I will correct it.

[Green Cochoa]

23 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

My red shirt story came from a published source.  Green is wrong on this one.  Sorry, Green, you are not living up to the scholarship that I have expected of you.  Yes, it was a letter that EGW wrote.  I gave the EGW citation for that letter.  If you  follow up on that citation, you can verify its accuracy.  I could have given another source, but that would have been a human source.  That would have been rejected immediately, I suppose.   So, I only provided the EGW source.  Anyone reading here can follow up to the EGW source.

I point out that the so-called Testimonies consist largely of letters that EGW wrote.

Regardless of all of this:  There are people who believe that every word of EGW was inspired by God and suitable our instruction today.  There are others who do not believe this.

In my red shirt response, I could have copied and posted the entire letter.  Instead, I only copied one paragraph.  It might have been instructive for me to have posted the entire letter.  It clearly made my point.

Gregory,

I care not that you question my scholarship.  This thread is not about either me or you.  It is about inspiration.  Ellen White did not publish the letter you speak of.  If she did, the onus is on you to provide proof of it, especially when I can provide documentation to the contrary.

http://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/3068.2000001#1

There is the letter, "published" online by the White Estate, from UNPUBLISHED manuscripts.  A piece of it, not including the portion to which you have made explicit reference, was earlier published in Manuscript Releases, and therefore can be found on the CD of her published writings.  The remainder is NOT on the CD, for the express reason that they are unpublished materials.

All of this is a sideshow to what really matters, but keep calling my scholarship, and character, too, if you like, into question, in order to find some excuse to "pick and choose" which of Ellen White's published sources you can have confidence in.  You may not realize how much the devil delights in your thoughts, for, even if some of what you say may be considered "factual," the attitude and words used portray a lack of confidence in the "every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God."  God has commanded us to believe His prophets.

 

UPDATE: Gregory's new post just came in acknowledging that I had been correct.  Again, that is not really the issue.  I don't mind if my scholarship is questioned.  However, the Word of God remains unsullied.  Remember William Miller's dream.

 

[Rossw]

Green, I call that the genetic fallacy used as an ad hominem.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

not to keep beating a dead horse, but here is what the White Estate has said regarding the "red dress":

Quote

Mrs. White encouraged using good taste in choosing the colors and style of dress (see Child Guidance, p. 419). Regarding color specifically, she gave this counsel (CG 420):

Good Taste in Colors and Figures.--Taste should be
manifested as to colors. Uniformity in this respect is
desirable as far as convenient. Complexion, however, may
be taken into account. Modest colors should be sought
for. When figured material is used, figures that are large
and fiery, showing vanity and shallow pride in those
who choose them, should be avoided. And a fantastic
taste in putting on different colors is bad.

If complexion is taken into account, not everyone should have a red dress, because not everyone will look good in it. However, Mrs. White did know people who did look good in red, and she encouraged such to have something red in their wardrobes.

In a letter on this subject (April 29, 1960), Arthur White wrote, "My aunt has told the story of how Sister White once passed along to her a bolt of red cloth for use in making a dress or as she pleased. She has described the cloth as 'red, real red,' not wine colored or maroon."

I think Mrs. White wanted people to read her words, but to use common sense and discernment when doing so...

[Gregory Matthews]

Green provided us with the following citation:

http://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/3068.2000001#1

That citation is interesting.  Let me be clear, it has nothing to do with my red dress story.  There is no relationship between my red dress story and the citation that Green posted.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

My basic position is this:

1) God is a God of truth.

2) All humans, to include both green and I are limited in our knowledge of salvation and of God.  We are all in error in some part.

3)  When convinced or our error, our only option if to acknowledge it.  That is why I posted my previous statement.  Green was more correct and I was less correct than I had thought.

 

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

That "incident" is not written in any of Mrs. White's writings.  I know, because I just spent a good hour looking at every single mention of the word "red," all 423 of them, on the 2010 published CD of her writings.  So it appears to be a classic "red herring."  The Bible speaks of "scripture" which means "writings" as being "inspired by God."  She didn't write and publish this, so it deserves no further attention.  She has given us her testimony with respect to her published writings--they are inspired by God.

I think it was the principle of wasting something that could be better used for some other pursuit that the dress issue was connected with, which could be appropriately considered Divinely inspired.

    This young lady was naturally a rare specimen of health. Her skin was clear, and her cheeks

red as a rose. Her chest and shoulders were broad, and her form was well-proportioned, her waist corresponding with the healthy proportions of her body. She was a slave to the tyrant, fashion. She was literally deformed by lacing. Her broad shoulders and large hips, with her girded, wasp-like waist, were so disproportionate that her form was anything but beautiful. And the most of her time was devoted to the arrangement of her dress in keeping with fashion, and laboring to deform her God-given, healthful, and naturally beautiful, form. {HR December 1, 1871, par. 7}

 

Angels weep over the infatuation of men, and it will be the turn of the deceived to weep by and by over their own insane actions when they find themselves gone too far to retrace their steps. They strengthened propensities which they ought to have subdued, and these tendencies to evil have finally bound them and made them captives. Now, Edson, now begin as never before to live for God, having His glory in view. He alone can help you and He alone can strengthen and bless you. Yield your independence, poor erring sinner, before God. Meekly bring all your burdens to the feet of Jesus and leave them there. Do your very best in California in any position. Do not come to Battle Creek. Make a success in California, I entreat of you. If you do not set type, take hold of some work; but I advise you to take any position assigned you and show your ability by care, thoroughness, and stick-to-itiveness. {Lt29-1879.10}

Love,

Mother.

Please send my bright green wrap, not the dark green; send red merino dress with pleats. {Lt29-1879.11}  

 

 

 

1In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands. Then, even if some refuse to obey the Good News, your godly lives will speak to them without any words. They will be won over 2by observing your pure and reverent lives.

3Don’t be concerned about the outward beauty of fancy hairstyles, expensive jewelry, or beautiful clothes. 4You should clothe yourselves instead with the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God. 5This is how the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands. 6For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, and called him her master. You are her daughters when you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do.

Husbands

7In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God’s gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered....1Peter 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

8 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Green provided us with the following citation:

http://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/3068.2000001#1

That citation is interesting.  Let me be clear, it has nothing to do with my red dress story.  There is no relationship between my red dress story and the citation that Green posted.

 

If this is about scholarship, consider your own.  You posted a quote from Mrs. White's letter to Willie.  That is the citation which leads to the full letter you referenced.  I agree, it had nothing to do with a "red dress."  It might have had something to do with a red shirt, however.  Perhaps you just need to read it.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green:  I have read the letter in full, before you posted the URL.  By the way, when I read the leltter in full, it was at a different place, one other than the URL that you posted.

My statement that your URL had nothing to  do with my red dress story was directed to other people reading these posts who might not understand.  Certainly, I would expect that you would have known that.

 

 

 

 

[CoAspen]

"Thus saith the Lord" has been turned into a mockery. Down through the centuries and even today that phrase has been used for the justification of mens desires, wars, killings, cults, etc. 

I remember the people of Waco and a man they followed to death who used EGW and the Bible to control others.

I would warn any person reading this site that what you are reading does not represent the the SDA church teachings. We may be struggling with the subject of WO and how God works with His created creatures but we do n to believe in cultism and we are not an EGW cult. Much shame has been brought on her name. Her counsels on not equating her writings with the Bible have in the past and continue also continue to be ignored. We as SDA's believe our salvation comes only from God and a relationship with Him. 

Thanks to Greg and Tom for their many attempts at bringing clarity.

 

[Green Cochoa]

13 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

"Thus saith the Lord" has been turned into a mockery. Down through the centuries and even today that phrase has been used for the justification of mens desires, wars, killings, cults, etc. 

I remember the people of Waco and a man they followed to death who used EGW and the Bible to control others.

I would warn any person reading this site that what you are reading does not represent the the SDA church teachings. We may be struggling with the subject of WO and how God works with His created creatures but we do n to believe in cultism and we are not an EGW cult. Much shame has been brought on her name. Her counsels on not equating her writings with the Bible have in the past and continue also continue to be ignored. We as SDA's believe our salvation comes only from God and a relationship with Him. 

Thanks to Greg and Tom for their many attempts at bringing clarity.

 

Yes, it is indeed thanks to some of the ideas and words of Greg and Tom for sentiments like yours to find fuller expression.  It is a sad day when any prophetic utterance is viewed with suspicion and when it is believed or felt that to follow it, or to accept it as God's message to us (a "thus saith the Lord") is to be part of a cult following the person rather than the God who inspired it.  You have indeed turned the "thus saith the Lord" into a mockery by saying, in essence, that it is instead a "thus saith Ellen White" or a "thus saith the Bible."  

Because some do not use God's Word properly does this mean none should use it at all?  

[CoAspen]

Your reply is truly confusing because of your statement.......

Quote

You have indeed turned the "thus saith the Lord" into a mockery by saying, in essence, that it is instead a "thus saith Ellen White" or a "thus saith the Bible."  

which is an outright falsehood. You need to re read my post agin as well as those of Tom and Greg. My post was plain and you did not answer  it but just continued with your obfuscation. That is why i posted the warning to  casual readers and passerby's.

Adios!!

[Rossw]

Coaspen, do you disagree with this statement?...I don't.

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental 
beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute 
the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these 
statements may be expected at a General Conference Session when the church is led by 
the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to 
express the teachings of God’s Holy Word.

[Rossw]

Coaspen, do you also disagree with this statement?

The Holy Scriptures 1:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration. The inspired authors 
spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to humanity the knowledge nec-
essary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the supreme, authoritative, and the infallible revelation of His will. They are the 
standard of character, the test of experience, the definitive revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in 
history. (Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 4:12; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

the LDS members believe that the writings of Joseph Smith are on par with the Holy Scriptures... and it is for that reason, many Christians consider the the Mormon church as a cult.

The same thing goes for the writings of Ellen White.  When her writings are said by some to be equivalent to Scriptures, or that they are indeed "holy scriptures," that puts the SDA church in the same position.  I can't tell you how many of my  non-SDA friends think Adventists are heretical by placing EGW as a biblical source of Truth.  Those who continue to espouse that idea make it so very difficult to witness to non-SDA family and friends.  I tell them, "no, we believe in sola scriptura".... and they come back at me with, "but I've read where your church members say Ellen White's writings are accepted by your church as the gospel.".... and round and round it goes.

I feel that if some really believe the EGW writings are to be taken as scripture, then that's their decision.  But I really think they should be very plain that that is *their* belief, and not representative of the Adventist church as a whole.

[Green Cochoa]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Yes, folk, the red dress story is true.  It has been published.  SInce Green denies it, I say:  Check out the "red shirt" above.  Whatever I said about the red dress applies to the red shirt story.

 

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

That citation is interesting.  Let me be clear, it has nothing to do with my red dress story.  There is no relationship between my red dress story and the citation that Green posted.

 

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

My statement that your URL had nothing to  do with my red dress story was directed to other people reading these posts who might not understand.  Certainly, I would expect that you would have known that.

I didn't.  Did you know that?

[LifeHiscost]

  Because some do not use God's Word properly does this mean none should use it at all?    

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. ...John 1

When I can no longer put my trust in these words, then I will consider the Holy Bible less than the Word of God.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!