Funeral Home Fires Transgender Employee

[Gregory Matthews]

A Court has ruled:  Does a funeral home have a right to fire a transgender worker?

See:

http://religionnews.com/2016/08/19/u-s-judge-says-funeral-home-had-religious-right-to-fire-transgender-worker/

[Rossw]

The question is who was being discriminated against in this case?

[Gregory Matthews]

I report topics of interest as I become aware of them.

 

Hobby Lobby is the law of the land.

However, I think that this case  raises some questions .

 

 

 

[Rossw]

56 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I report topics of interest as I become aware of them.

I comment on topics of interest as I become aware of them. 

58 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Hobby Lobby is the law of the land.

Hobby Lobby is more than just a store that sells hobby supplies? Did't know they are themselves a law.

59 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

However, I think that this case  raises some questions .

Such as...?

The questions asked will depend on your point of view on this case. 

The simple matter is the business had certain standards. The person hired knew those standards at the time of hiring. The standard did not change but the employee did make an apparent change which put them outside the requirements of the job. 

Greg, do you believe the rights of the transgender person's employment are of higher concern than someone's religious beliefs?

[Gregory Matthews]

When I said that Hobby Lobby is the law of the land, my reference was to the relatively recent decision of the United States Supreme Court.  I assume that you knew that and were having fun with me in your response.

 

When I said that this case raises some questions my reference was to the Supreme Court decision and the extent to which that decision applied to   the case of the funeral employee.   Yes, in the ruling of the Court in that case, the Judge stated that the decision of the Supreme Court did apply.  In my mind, I am not certain that it does apply and therefore may be subject to appeal.  However, my knowledge   on this aspect is not sufficient to know whether an appeal on that point would likely be successful.  I was simply asking a question.

On the basis of the above, I was not making any statement about the rights of the employee vs. the employer.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw asked below:

Notwithstanding my comment in the post above, I will respond to this.

As might be expected, this case  may not be simple and may have complex issues.

1)  Under EEOC Law there are protections granted to people.   E.G.  There are protections that extend to race and an employer might not be allowed  to discriminate on the basis to race, regardless of religious beliefs.

2)  Do those protections currently extend to a transgender person?  Probably not, in my thinking.

3)  In this specific case, I can think of reasons why the employer had a right to fire the employee outside of any religious reason.

4)  Well, it seems that the Courts may decide.

Quote

 

Greg, do you believe the rights of the transgender person's employment are of higher concern than someone's religious beliefs?

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw, You may have noted that in my post above I have equivocated and not been definitive.  This comes from a nine year background of representing employees in relations with management.  Yes, on occasion, I have actually represented employees before Administrative Law Judges.  In that background, I have learned some lessons:

1) You can never predict with certainty what the decision will be.  It may go 180 degrees opposite from what you expect, to include winning what you expected to lose.  This can include your client blowing the case with something unexpected and even after client preparation.    It can include a compromise decision that gives something to all but not all to any.

2) I have found that I have often been most successful   when I could negotiate a compromise in which all got something that they needed.  On that basis I have negotiated for an employee who had been fired to be re-hired, more than once and I have stopped the firing of other employees.  I have negotiated payments to employees in excess of $1,000.

The bottom line is that as I review the case that I posted, I have some questions and I am not certain as to how it will end up being decided.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw:

in regard to the above, you  may ask why one might win a case that they expected to lose.  I will give you an example.

NOTE:  A person has a right to argue their case and to obtain a decision on that argument.

I once represented an employee who was charged with  four (4) offenses.

I told the employee that we would win one, it was a slam-dunk.  We would   loses one, it simply was not winnable.  The other two could go either way, but there was a potential to lose them. I presented the employees case.  When the decision came we lost the one that I said was a slam-dunk and won the other three.  I was so surprised that I went back to the person who had made the decision and asked her to explain the basis for her decision to me.  NOTE This decision had not been made by an Administrative Law Judge.  She promptly told me that she wanted something from me and the employee in return  I immediately informed her that she would get it.

I went back to the employee and told him that I could appeal to an Administrative Law Judge and I still thought that we could win that one.  But, if the Judge opened up the other three, we could lose all three.  The employee immediately directed me not to appeal.  NOTE:  I would not have appealed it if the employee had not agreed.

 

[Stan]

@Rossw

 

What do people want done with the Transgendered folks?

 

Execute them?

Make their life worse than it is?

Declassify them as possible neighbours?

Banish them to an island far away?

Make sure they never work again? 

Make sure they have no place to live?

[Gregory Matthews]

One last comment:  When I prepared a client for the hearing, I always informed the client that if they failed to tell the truth they would lose the  case and while I would  let them get the hearing, if I thought they intended to be untruthful, I would allow them to lose the case. 

Out of this context, management considered me to be honest and it was out of this that management became willing to work with me and I became successful in some of  what I accomplished. 

[Stan]

If we declassify them as a neighbour, would that exempt us from Judgement day stuff?

[Rossw]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

@Rossw

 

What do people want done with the Transgendered folks?

 

Execute them?

Make their life worse than it is?

Declassify them as possible neighbours?

Banish them to an island far away?

Make sure they never work again? 

Make sure they have no place to live?

I think you've gone way out of the bounds of this legal case. Do we assume all religions or Christian denominations believe exactly as we do? The owner of the store was exempt from protections due to the religious status. The transgendered person should've known this.  

"Thomas Rost, is a devout Christian whose life’s work stems from his religious beliefs, including that shunning one’s biological sex is an affront to God, the judge wrote."

[Stan]

Believing what I believe is fine and just, making other people believe what I do is not fine and just.

 

 

[Rossw]

5 hours ago, Stan said:

If we declassify them as a neighbour, would that exempt us from Judgement day stuff?

Who declassified the transgendered person? If a business is ran on the principle of Christian values would it not be a hypocrisy to employ those who are in direct contrast to the owners belief? The funeral home owner did not declassify the employee.

I don't see the connection to "judgement day stuff".

[Rossw]

11 minutes ago, Stan said:

Believing what I believe is fine and just, making other people believe what I do is not fine and just.

 

 

Are you assuming the ex employee had no idea they were being hired into a Christian business? 

Should the Sda church hire non believers to run the church? If an SDA pastor later rejects Adventist beliefs should we continue to employ them?

[Stan]

THE SDA Church has a lot of non adventist working for them. Schools colleges shipping security Hospitals etc etc

 

Should a person be terminated because they believe different?

 

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not a activist, but do want people to be treated humane.

[Rossw]

6 minutes ago, Stan said:

THE SDA Church has a lot of non adventist working for them. Schools colleges shipping security Hospitals etc etc

 

Should a person be terminated because they believe different?

 

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not a activist, but do want people to be treated humane.

I also want people treated humane but also believe small businesses who are ran as a religious outreach should not compromise on those beliefs. 

[Stan]

There is such a fine line there. painfully fine..

 

in Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce (1989), p. 242

If we err, let it be on the side of mercy rather than on the side of condemnation and harsh dealing

 

There was an interesting report I read to day from Johns Hopkins saying 

http://www.churchleaders.com/daily-buzz/285441-johns-hopkins-university-study-no-scientific-evidence-people-born-gay-transgender.html?utm_content=buffer958ed&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

I tend to agree with that, when I studied into this 30 years ago, and much has been unveiled since that I have studied is the they are often shaped that way by their parents.

Yet they are that way and need more mercy than harsh Judgement.

[Stan]

either way   attempts to undo that situation for the most part has failed and caused more problems.

 

I know people that married opposite sex, were told to pray away the desires etc,  and after 30 years of pretending, came out of the closet, broke the children for the rest of their life as well as their spouse.

[Rossw]

Stan, I can think of many hypothetical situations were a person's beliefs or lifestyles would conflict the employer's. Should the government be involved with mandating who a business can or can't hire and fire? I sure hope not. If they could they'd be leaps forward in controlling our beliefs such as the control Ca is attempting to assert over colleges and universities. Essentially the funeral home's case is about whether the director can practice his beliefs whether we agree or not.

[CoAspen]

If I 'hired' only people who believed just the way I do.......I could only hire myself!

Lets face it, the issues are sexual orientation and if we don't like it, we can always hide behind 'beliefs'.

[CoAspen]

An interesting quote from the article....

"However, that is not to say that certain biological traits don’t offer an indication that a person might choose homosexuality later in life.

The report considered several twin studies, finding, “There is virtually no evidence that anyone, gay or straight, is ‘born that way’ if that means their sexual orientation was genetically determined. But there is some evidence from the twin studies that certain genetic profiles probably increase the likelihood the person later identifies as gay or engages in same-sex sexual behavior.”

On one hand they say not genetically determined and then say genetic profiles increase the likelihood, which seems to me to be saying we have contradictions!!

Still a confusing issue so lets not be the definers of absolutes or how such individuals are treated, as Stan is saying.

[Stan]

In a pretend world that does not exist,  gays & Lesbians would say, "lets get our cake from a Christian place, there is something about them that gives them the best quality"

 

In the same imaginary world  an transsexual would say "You can not work with anyone with a better work ethic, leadership ethic than a born again christian" "they even told me they pray for me" "I wish I would have experienced that love in the past"

 

We are all sinners, some get caught and some don't, and some have fully deceived themselves.

 

Just my opinion, nothing more.

 

"we shall know them by their love"

[Rossw]

The problem is when someone is working in a Christian environment for sometime and know the ins and outs of Christian beliefs then decided they will back slide into sin.

What kind of message is sent if a conference official decided to turn gay and transgendered? Would we lay down and settle if the official decided to sue for discrimination? Or would we fight the suit? Or would we allow the official to continue employment?

[Stan]

there is a difference between gay and transgendered..

 

Personally am not big on "what if" statements.

 

I support EGW on this

If we err, let it be on the side of mercy rather than on the side of condemnation and harsh dealing