Funeral Home Fires Transgender Employee

[Outta Here]

2 hours ago, Rossw said:

Here's the difference whether you agree or not. Sure an employee may spend THEIR money on bad habits but it is THEIR money. Hobby Lobby did their duty by paying the employee for services provided. HL is not paying for the bad habits. They are paying for the services of the employee. Where as under the affordable care act they are paying directly for contraceptives.

That's exactly what your asking as you don't see the business's point of view at all.

If a business is ran on the same moral Biblical principle as a church(and they should lest they become hypocritical), and if they believe transgender is a sin, then it is in there Constitution right to fire a person in the same way a church has the right to disfellowship a member. See 1Corinthians 5, it should clear any confusion.

The SDA church does not practice disfellowship in a Biblical manner as some other conservative denominations do. If a church is sued for disfellowship of a member willfully continuing in sin, and the judge sided with the member, would that not violate the Church's Constitutionally protected right? A Christian's business should be seen as an extension of the church.

 

We'll likely never see eye to eye on this. I do not believe Hobby Lobby is paying directly for contraceptives under the ACA. Rather they are paying for the option to have the contraceptives and therefore, are not responsible in the event that one of their employees chooses to take contraceptives (for birth control or any other myriad of reasons women take them). Hence, it still boggles my mind as to why they believe their religious freedoms were impinged.

The funeral home is not a church. They are not in the business of judging the morality of their employees. Churches do that. That's a church's business. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. 

 

[Rossw]

44 minutes ago, Aubrey said:

We'll likely never see eye to eye on this. I do not believe Hobby Lobby is paying directly for contraceptives under the ACA. Rather they are paying for the option to have the contraceptives and therefore, are not responsible in the event that one of their employees chooses to take contraceptives (for birth control or any other myriad of reasons women take them). Hence, it still boggles my mind as to why they believe their religious freedoms were impinged.

The funeral home is not a church. They are not in the business of judging the morality of their employees. Churches do that. That's a church's business. See 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. 

 

What is meant by church?

[Rossw]

If you feel you can go in and out of the Church you were never in the Church. The funeral home owner is in the Church even at his business. Christ's body, the believers are the Church. Not a building or denomination. Many in the denomination or in the building on Saturday/Sunday will not be saved. I fear by yours and Coaspen's responses you maybe outside the Church.

[Outta Here]

Okay.

[Rossw]

Do we set aside our beliefs and convictions for only Sabbath?

[CoAspen]

Of course we sin willfully! Do we sin accidentally, really? We have freedom of choice. Our inherent bent is to pick the wrong choice many times in our lives even when we don't want too......so Christ died for us.

I ain't perfect, are you?

[CoAspen]

Quote

 I fear by yours and Coaspen's responses you maybe outside the Church.

So if we disagree, we are outside the church, according to you...a judgement call...what does the Bible say about judging others.....

[Rossw]

1 minute ago, CoAspen said:

So if we disagree, we are outside the church, according to you...a judgement call...what does the Bible say about judging others.....

I'm not afraid of judgement.

[Rossw]

1 minute ago, CoAspen said:

8 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

Of course we sin willfully! Do we sin accidentally, really? We have freedom of choice. Our inherent bent is to pick the wrong choice many times in our lives even when we don't want too......so Christ died for us.

I ain't perfect, are you?

 

²⁶ For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

[bonnie]

25 minutes ago, Rossw said:

I'm not afraid of judgement.

Rossw,

You can judge the funeral director and decide his religious belief is wrong,but you have to be careful what or who else you judge as wrong.

[CoAspen]

If you are not sinning willfully, than how are you sinning? 

Still waiting for an answer to that question.

Bible says we are all sinners, period. If Christ came to save sinners and no one is sinning whom does He save?

[Stan]

Funerals are one of those things that need grace

Example if a Muslim funeral, and the attendants are Jewish, out of respect trade off with another funeral home.

If a gay funeral, do the same if the attendants are radical evangelicals that hate them.

 

Make sense?

[Stan]

5 hours ago, Rossw said:

Do you go on willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of truth?

Ross, I hope this does not come across as picking on you..  that is not the case.

Just because a person is not convicted of the same sins that I have been, does not mean they are willfully sinning..

 

I still like EGW Quote from her sexual behaviour books

 

in Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce (1989), p. 242

If we err, let it be on the side of mercy rather than on the side of condemnation and harsh dealing

 

Do you support her on  that?

[Rossw]

4 hours ago, CoAspen said:

If you are not sinning willfully, than how are you sinning? 

Still waiting for an answer to that question.

Bible says we are all sinners, period. If Christ came to save sinners and no one is sinning whom does He save?

Never said I don't sin. But I don't willfully continue sinning. There is no sacrifice for willful sins. Reading Hebrews, Romans, 1 John, and James will clarify the apparent paradox.

[Rossw]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

Funerals are one of those things that need grace

Example if a Muslim funeral, and the attendants are Jewish, out of respect trade off with another funeral home.

If a gay funeral, do the same if the attendants are radical evangelicals that hate them.

 

Make sense?

Not relevant to the topic. We aren't discussing who the funeral home provides funerals for. That topic didn't come up in the litigation as far as I know. The point of discussion is the firing of a transgender employee.

[Guest Aubrey]

6 hours ago, bonnie said:

Rossw,

You can judge the funeral director and decide his religious belief is wrong,but you have to be careful what or who else you judge as wrong.

I think that was probably a tongue in cheek comment. Am I right?

[Rossw]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

Ross, I hope this does not come across as picking on you..  that is not the case.

I don't think your picking on me at all Stan, you've been very gracious.

4 hours ago, Stan said:

Just because a person is not convicted of the same sins that I have been, does not mean they are willfully sinning..

True, but as Christians we should have the ability to recognize those who struggle with sin and those who willfully sin and claim to be a Christian. I assume the employee at the funeral home would've known going transgender is considered a sin in their beliefs. In that case the employee is considered leaven. There is a difference between reaching out to the lost to save them and those who are in the church willfully continuing in a sinful lifestyle. They are considered leaven. The funeral director followed his conscience and Biblical teaching in firing the employee.

 

[Rossw]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

I still like EGW Quote from her sexual behaviour books

 

in Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce (1989), p. 242

If we err, let it be on the side of mercy rather than on the side of condemnation and harsh dealing

 

Do you support her on  that?

Of course. But I'm not sure the funeral director believes EGW was a prophet.

We do need compassion in dealing with people but they will make decisions for themselves and I think Paul and Scripture are clear.

[CoAspen]

What is being avoided here is that we all make conscious decisions, so how can we call sinning, willful or not willful ???

Waiting for that answer............anyone....speak up.........

[Guest Researcher]

28 minutes ago, Rossw said:

I don't think your picking on me at all Stan, you've been very gracious.

True, but as Christians we should have the ability to recognize those who struggle with sin and those who willfully sin and claim to be a Christian. I assume the employee at the funeral home would've known going transgender is considered a sin in their beliefs. In that case the employee is considered leaven. Their is a difference between reaching out to the lost to save them and those who are in the church willfully continuing in a sinful lifestyle. They are considered leaven. The funeral director followed his conscience and Biblical teaching in firing the employee.

 

From: https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/after-losing-court-michigan-funeral-home-now-claims-religion-justifies-firing

After losing its motion to dismiss the case, the funeral home raised religion defenses under the First Amendment’s Free Exercise Clause and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The funeral home isn’t affiliated with any church; its articles of incorporation don’t mention any religious purpose; and it employs and offers services to people of all faiths and no faith. In fact, the EEOC observed that the funeral home “gave no indication that its religious beliefs were being violated until litigation had been underway for nearly eight and a half months.” Now, however, the owner claims that having to employ transgender people would impermissibly infringe his business’s religious exercise.

[debbym]

I don't see gender confusion as willful sinning.  Is PTSD willful sinning?

when you are groping for answers and you can only see a small part of the picture at once... this is the effect of sin, but it is not breaking the ten commandments.

is it a sin to have psychotic delusions or any delusions?

is it a sin to have confusion in your life about many various things?

is it a sin to lose yourself?  or to be overwhelmed by loss and lose you way?

i don't understand this condemning people who are struggling with the impact of the sin condition.

There is not one person who is not dealing with the impact of sin.

 

 

 

[Rossw]

1 hour ago, CoAspen said:

What is being avoided here is that we all make conscious decisions, so how can we call sinning, willful or not willful ???

Waiting for that answer............anyone....speak up.........

This is simple. We can be conscious of the actions we do but not conscious of the fact that we are sinning at that time. We sin far more than what we are conscious of. 

If you gave some thought to reading Leviticus it might clear up some of the confusion for you. 

Let me ask you, CoAspen. Do you disagree with Hebrews 10:26?

[Rossw]

34 minutes ago, debbym said:

I don't see gender confusion as willful sinning.  Is PTSD willful sinning?

when you are groping for answers and you can only see a small part of the picture at once... this is the effect of sin, but it is not breaking the ten commandments.

is it a sin to have psychotic delusions or any delusions?

is it a sin to have confusion in your life about many various things?

is it a sin to lose yourself?  or to be overwhelmed by loss and lose you way?

i don't understand this condemning people who are struggling with the impact of the sin condition.

There is not one person who is not dealing with the impact of sin.

 

 

 

The person went beyond just confusion to acting on the confusion. Is there hope for this person? Of course! The issue is what we do with the knowledge of sin.

[Rossw]

1 hour ago, Guest Researcher said:

From: https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/after-losing-court-michigan-funeral-home-now-claims-religion-justifies-firing

After losing its motion to dismiss the case, the funeral home raised religion defenses under the First Amendment’s Free Exercise Clause and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The funeral home isn’t affiliated with any church; its articles of incorporation don’t mention any religious purpose; and it employs and offers services to people of all faiths and no faith. In fact, the EEOC observed that the funeral home “gave no indication that its religious beliefs were being violated until litigation had been underway for nearly eight and a half months.” Now, however, the owner claims that having to employ transgender people would impermissibly infringe his business’s religious exercise.

IF this is all true then the Funeral director is in trouble. However, the ACLU tends to be biased and is obviously slanted toward a particular group. How often do we see the ACLU defending religious belief?

[Rossw]

48 minutes ago, debbym said:

I don't see gender confusion as willful sinning.  

If a person were a true knowledgeable Christian then they should know a man who is effeminate is living in sin.  "Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate".

I've asked myself what sexual orientation a transgender person would be. No matter what, they will always default to homosexuality. If they are a man and identify as a woman, but if they desire another man they are gay. If they identify as a woman then they are still gay as they think they are a woman desiring after a woman. Not a good situation to be in.