When Church leaders fail us...

[Stan]

When Church leaders are willing to have a Church split over the trivial differences of what a Commission Minister and an Ordained Minister can or can not do, we either need new leaders or a new Church.

[JoeMo]

"When the Holy Spirit leaves the church, all we have left is religion". - Bono (maybe not the exact quote)

[LeftCoastFrank]

When persons of Spiritual integrity confronted Church leaders about errors in teaching, in the 1500s and after, we hail them as Reformation heroes.  How is it, that in the Third Millenium, we are urged to abandon our conscience in favor of "church unity"?  The counsel of Acts 4 is that we should obey God, rather than man.

I have been a baptized member of the Adventist Church for 53 years.  I was an ordained minister of the Church in three different conferences.  I love the Adventist Church.  I believe in the message of the Church, but, I will not sacrifice my conscience because of a majority vote.  History has repeatedly shown that the majority is very often wrong!  

If the General Conference takes punitive actions against Unions who follow their consciences, it is time to "stand for the right though the heavens fall."  My faith is in Jesus Christ and the Bible, not in humans, even if they are elected officials.

[Stan]

It would be a huge thing to me if this was not a trivial item, and I know calling it trivial will seem insulting to some, but it is not.

 

So a conference thinks that women should be able to organize and close Churches.  that is about the only difference between a Commission Pastor and an Ordained...  for that they are willing to risk splitting the Church

 

I say leave the Unions and Conferences alone, if they grow than good, if they fail to grow the mission of the Church then they need to re evaluate. The proof will be in the pudding.

 

Not difficult to me.

[LifeHiscost]

7 hours ago, Stan said:

When Church leaders are willing to have a Church split over the trivial differences of what a Commission Minister and an Ordained Minister can or can not do, we either need new leaders or a new Church.

Since we know from the Word that the remnant church is going through 'til Jesus comes, and we are told, without Jesus we can do nothing, and Jesus is identified as the Author and the Finisher of our faith, maybe it would be good to let each individual follow their own conscience? OTOH someone once said, "The freedom for you to swing your fist, ends where the tip of my nose begins!"

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   

[carole1012]

The Unions need to ask for forgiveness or repent?

"According to reliable sources, should the unions choose not to repent or ask forgiveness for their actions, the item will be brought back to Annual Council in 2017."

This is TRAGIC.

Edited October 5, 2016 by carole1012

[Doug Matacio]

It is about whether they can be a conference president or not. Ordained can; commissioned can't. That is what it boils down to. The GC doesn't mind if women are elders or pastors. The GC doesn't want them in the position of conference president. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Commissioned pastors cannot ordain local Elders.   If a commissioned pastor of a congregation wants a local elder to be ordained, that pastor must request that it be done by a male who is ordained as a pastor.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Commissioned pastors cannot ordain local Elders.   If a commissioned pastor of a congregation wants a local elder to be ordained, that pastor must request that it be done by a male who is ordained as a pastor.

that just seems weird to me...  If all elders have to be ordained by ordained pastors, then all pastors have a common link up the line of antiquity of one common person who began the ordaining process.  Who would that be?  (And don't tell me it was Jesus — I don't think He ordained anyone....rather, He *commissioned* them.  Funny that *that* wouldn't be sufficient now...)

[Kevin H]

11 hours ago, Doug Matacio said:

It is about whether they can be a conference president or not. Ordained can; commissioned can't. That is what it boils down to. The GC doesn't mind if women are elders or pastors. The GC doesn't want them in the position of conference president. 

 

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Commissioned pastors cannot ordain local Elders.   If a commissioned pastor of a congregation wants a local elder to be ordained, that pastor must request that it be done by a male who is ordained as a pastor.

And these are basically loopholes so that the church can ordain women without actually ordaining women. It's sad that all this commotion is about being honest and doing away with these loopholes.

[Gregory Matthews]

A bit of historical trivia as it pertains to the SDA denomination. By the way, while the actual facts may be true, please do not take me seriously as to their application.  I am simply having some fun.

In the early days of our developing denomination, one of the clergy who became part of us was an Episcopalian priest.  Under the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, his ordination can be traced back to Saint Peter.

Therefore, any SDA clergy whom he ordained, also, under RC doctrine, can trace their ordination back to Saint Peter.

Who knows, many of our SDA clergy today may be able to trace their line of ordination back to Saint Peter.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Kevin is correct.

As I have said before.  The Bible is not concerned as to the ordination of women.  The Bible speaks to the role that men and women should have in spiritual nuture. 

From the Biblical stand point, either women should have a specific role, or they should not.  The actual ordination of women is not addressed.  Their role, whatever you might think it to be is addressed.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

There is actually another difference between one who is an ordained pastor and one who is commissioned.

When a  male is ordained to the ministry, inherent in that ordination is the right to perform ministry and to baptize world-wide.  Ministerial ethics says that such a person will not go into an administrative area of the world and do ministry without coordinating with, and receiving the permission of the administrative leader in that area.

E.G.  As a military chaplain, I had the authority to do military ministry world-wide, and the GC/NAD was my administrative  supervisor.  But, whether in the United States or serving in Asia or Central America I always coordinated any ministry that I might do outside of the military, with the administrative leader in that area.

A person who has been Commissioned to pastoral ministry does not have that same level of authority.  [NOTE:  To surprise some, we do give Commissioned credentials to some males.]  A Commissioned pastoral leader of a congregation is always given permission, by the Conference President, to baptize.  But, that permission to baptize is governed by any boundaries that the Conference President might place upon that permission.  Someone who is Commissioned, but not a congregational pastor, may or may not be given permission to baptize.

Our women, who understand the differences between an Ordained pastor and a Commissioned Pastor are correct in feeling that Commissioned role is a lessor role.  

[pierrepaul]

For any large organization to function, rules and procedures have to be in place, but it seems to me that the SdA denomination has created its own convoluted corpus of canon law.

As a lay member, about as far removed from church politics as I can be (I did once sit on a conference committee, once on a church board and twice on nominating committees) I have trouble seeing the hand of God in things like the GC sessions. It seems to me that the session was little more than good old fashioned politicking and vote hustling, the kind one sees at political party conventions.

[pierrepaul]

1 hour ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

that just seems weird to me...  If all elders have to be ordained by ordained pastors, then all pastors have a common link up the line of antiquity of one common person who began the ordaining process.  Who would that be?  (And don't tell me it was Jesus — I don't think He ordained anyone....rather, He *commissioned* them.  Funny that *that* wouldn't be sufficient now...)

The Catholics have the doctrine of apostolic succession whereby only bishops can ordain priests, and thus theoretically every priest can trace his ordination from a line of ordained bishops all the way back to Peter. With our byzantine rules and regulations and our own version of "canon law", it seems we have the same sort of tradition for the SdA professional clergy - we're just missing the robes and the funny hats.

[Gregory Matthews]

I have been informed that the NAD Working Policies that govern the ministry of Commissioned Ministers may be found in L-26 & L 27.

I have been told that under L-26-10, a Commissioned Minister must be elected as a Local Elder in the congregations that person serves.

"A commissioned minister is authorized by the conference to perform substantially all the religious functions . . . in the church or churches to which the minister is assigned and elected as a church elder."  L-26-10

I am told that the NAD Working Policies that govern the ministry of Ordained ministers are found in L 45.

"Ordination to the ministry is the setting apart of the individual to a sacred calling, not for one local field alone but for the world Church. . ."         L 45-05

NOTE:  There is a substantial difference.

 

 

[pierrepaul]

Fascinating Gregory. One of my favourite topics of interest is federalism in its various forms, but especially the Canadian and US versions (which are quite different). I think one can make an analogy with the recent debates on same-sex marriage. Marriage is clearly under state jurisdiction and therefore each state can set its own rules - but under the constitution each state is to give "full faith and credit" to the acts of other states. Some opinions were issued suggesting that if a couple (same-sex) legally married in one state moved to another state that did not allow same sex marriage, the later state might be required to recognise the marriage.

Although ordination is a union matter, if an ordination is valid worldwide, would an instance ever arise where a non-female-ordaining union would be required to "recognise" the ordination of a woman from another union?  Or is this concern strictly theoretical since a woman pastor would never be called to a non-female-ordaining union?

[Gail]

What would happen if the powers that be allowed lay members to baptise into Jesus' fold without church membership?

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Gail said:

What would happen if the powers that be allowed lay members to baptise into Jesus' fold without church membership?

There would probably be a lot more Christians and a lot fewer members of denominations.

[Gregory Matthews]

Puierrepaul:

In general, the answer to your question is No.  As areas of the Church that did not recognize female ordination would not be required to recognize it.

An exception might be if  the President of the General Conference were a female, etc.

 

 

 

 

[Gerr]

On 10/5/2016 at 1:18 PM, LeftCoastFrank said:

When persons of Spiritual integrity confronted Church leaders about errors in teaching, in the 1500s and after, we hail them as Reformation heroes.  How is it, that in the Third Millenium, we are urged to abandon our conscience in favor of "church unity"?  The counsel of Acts 4 is that we should obey God, rather than man.

I have been a baptized member of the Adventist Church for 53 years.  I was an ordained minister of the Church in three different conferences.  I love the Adventist Church.  I believe in the message of the Church, but, I will not sacrifice my conscience because of a majority vote.  History has repeatedly shown that the majority is very often wrong!  

If the General Conference takes punitive actions against Unions who follow their consciences, it is time to "stand for the right though the heavens fall."  My faith is in Jesus Christ and the Bible, not in humans, even if they are elected officials.

When your conscience contradicts the conscience of another, then what?

[Kevin H]

8 hours ago, jackson said:

8 hours ago, jackson said:

Whether to ordain women or not is not a dispute over conscience  or fairness vs the Union or the GC. It is about the role of scriptural authority in the church. Paul was clear and concise on the requirements for an elder and bishop. The GC takes the words of Paul as the words from Christ. Others don't. 

The Adventist church went against scripture by allowing women elders, and now they no longer stand on a "thus saith the Lord" regarding this whole matter. This is what happens when you concede scriptural authority to try and keep unity.- as if unity was more important than God's word.

 

I fully agree that the issue is about the role of scriptural authority in the church. The issue is are you willing to study the words of scripture to understand what the Bible writer was saying, or do you want to just grab the words that a superficial reading makes it appear like it is supporting your view and use your imagination and tradition to interpret scripture. Are you going to follow the methods of those who believe that Paul was clear and concise that the dead go to heaven at death and that Paul did not want us to continue to keep the Sabbath. Or are you willing to study Paul in his context?

[Kevin H]

Thank you Jackson, this is EXACTLY my point. Your earlier post sounded too much like "We who oppose women's ordination clearly follow the Bible and you who support women's ordination are clearly rejecting the Bible."  Which also has been a cry I hear way too often in the Anti-ordination camp.

It's late and I just got home from work. I'll try and I think that others here can share passages with you. But while there is indeed a set of liberal arguments by people who do not see the Bible as our standard who have their reasons for supporting women's ordination . But their standard is not my standard. Thus I am not concerned with why they want women to be ordained.  But when you (and others who oppose women's ordination) point out faults in their reasoning, that does not affect my view. The issue is there are also those of us who do accept the Bible as the final authority who are fully "just as intelligent and sincere Bible students as you are." and who support women's ordination.

[Gregory Matthews]

Jackson, I simply remind you of the great number of studies that this denomination has done and the consistent result is that it has remain divided.

As an example, consider the world-wide study that began after the 2010 General Conference.  Briefly, the overall result of those studies was a conclusion that the Bible and EGW neither clearly required nor clearly prohibited the ordination of  women.  In a sense the position of the SDA denomination is that it is simply a matter of policy that women should not be ordained.

If you want to know more about the results of those studies, read the literature that has been posted.  Such will be much more  comprehensive that anyone could ever post here.

My personal opinion as I have often stated here is:

1)  Ordination is not the fundamental Biblical (or EGW) issue.

2)  The Bible says very little (perhaps nothing) about the ordination of either men or women.

3)  Yes. I am aware that the Bible does mention people having hands laid upon them and God asked to give them grace to perform a spiritual mission.  But, ordination is more than simply this.  We do that when we Commission men (Yes we commission men.) and women.

4)  Rather, the fundamental Biblical issue is the role that women should have in spiritual nuture.

5)  Either women should have such a public role, or they should not. 

6)  If women should not have such a role, they should not be  local elders and deacons/deaconesses. 

 7)  If women should not have the role of a local Conference President, as policy says, they should not be a General Conference Vice-President as has happened.

8)  If women should not be a local Conference President, one should  not have been the President of the Iowa Conference as happened, for a short period of time many years ago.

9) In my personal opinion, God has demonstrated, both during World War 2 and in China during present times, that women can take spiritual leadership.

10)  As a denomination, the religious world can not understand how we would have a female as a co-founder and yet attempt to deny ordination to women.  I agree with this.  I would have to reject, which I do not do, EGW in the role that she took  in the development of our denomination if  I were to take the positon that    others have taken against the role that females should have.

       

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Jackson:

Probably few understand that great number of women who have had major roles in spiritual nuture.  The following URL will list many of them.

http://www.adventistwomensministries.org/index.php?id=58

Included in the list is the woman who was, for a short period of time, the President of the Iowa Conference.  Her name was Flora Plummer (1862 - 1945).

Are you also aware that Phyllis Ware once served as a Conference President, again for a short period of times, and more recently?