Will being 'good' assure you of heaven??

[Stan]

well???

[Nicodema]

Mark 10:18

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jeremiah 17:5(a)

Thus says the LORD,"Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength..."

Revelation 3:17-18

Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

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(1) There is none truly 'good' -- that is, on a meritorious and deserving-of-Heaven level -- but God Himself.

(2) We might think we are good, but even our righteous acts are, by comparison to the true goodness exemplified by God in Christ, naught but "filthy rags".

(3) Trusting in ourselves and our own human judgment in these matters is like a "curse" to us. Relying upon our own strength to make ourselves holy is worse than futile: it is absolute delusion predicated upon an ontological non-sequitur.

(4) Belief in our own goodness, and resting satisfied therein, are red-flag symptoms of gross spiritual blindness.

[GreatLakesGramma]

If you sin just once in your entire life, you've forever blown your chance on making it by being "good".

[LifeHiscost]

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Stan Jensen said:

well???

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Without equivocation, no!!

Let no Christian say He is better than any man (or woman). But the Christian who cannot say he is better off than the majority of men, has not experienced the intimate joy of Jesus.

[:"red"] "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. " [/] 2 Corinthians 5:10 NASB

The rewards of behaving well bring rewards beyond the present life of appreciation.

[:"red"] "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." [/]

John 14:27 KJV

[:"red"] "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your moral excellence and your praiseworthy, noble, and good deeds and recognize and honor and praise and glorify your Father Who is in heaven." [/] Matt 5:16 AMP

[:"red"] "If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour." [/] John 12:26 KJV

[Nicodema]

Well Christine gets the brevity award for condensing into one sentence what took me four Bible quotes and four sentences to illustrate ... LOL.

[olger]

Good question Stan.

The Bible gives twelve rewards for Godly living:

1) I will experience peace (psalm 37:37)

2) I will experience joy (psalm 97:11)

3) I will have guidance in making decision (Prov 11:3)

4) I will prosper (Psalm 92:12)

5) I will experience security (prov 10:9)

6) I will gain wisdom (Prov 2:70

7) I will gain the favor of others (prov 14:9)

8) I will experience God's provision for my needs (psalm 37:25)

9) Our children will experience God's blessing (Psalm 112:2)

10) I will never be forgotten (112:2)

11) I will have hope in death (Prov 14:32)

12) I will have a sure reward (Prov 11:18; Psalm 37:18)

The Bible is very clear that decisions made in life will have certain results. "Whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap" (Gal. 6:7). The study of the Bible reveals natural consequences of a number of specific actions. These natural consequences can be considered God's warnings to prevent people from practicing destructive behavior patterns. Jesus warned "Whoever commits sin is a servant of sin" (John 8:32). When a person sins, that one action can lead to a pattern of sin, and eventually one will become a slave to that sinful pattern. Joy & fulfillment cannot be experienced in life because of these negative consequences that will occur when one is in bondage to sin. Many people fail to see the connection between decisions they made in the past and the difficult situations that they currently experience. The solution is to acknowledge & confess our sins.

The Bible reveals a number of consequences for wrong actions. a few;

1) A lazy person will experience poverty (Prov 6:11)

2 A person involved in pre-marital sex will experience financial loss (Proverbs 5:10; 6:26)

2) A person involved in moral failure will experience immorality in their family (II Samuel 12:11-12;13:1-6).

4) A nperson involved in moral failure will go astray in other areas (prov 5:23).

5) A person who is morally impure will not keep promises (proverbs 2:17)

6) Use of alcolhol or drugs will bring contention into our life (Prov 23:29-30).

7) a rebellious person will destroy God's reputation (1 Timothy 6:1; Ezekiel 20:8-10).

8) A materialistic person will experience harmful lusts & desires that will destroy them (1 Timothy 6:9).

9) a proud person will experience dishonor & shame (Prov 11:2).

10) A proud person will experience a sense of distance from God (Psalm 138:6).

11) a proud person will experience contention in their relationships (Proverbs 13:10; 28:25).

God is in the business of redeeming & changing lives.

Bless you,

olger

[Gerr]

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Stan Jensen said:

well???

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[:"blue"]Yes!!! IF you are essentially good. Unfortunately, as Nico's quote indicate, "there is none good but One..." [/]

Gerry

[Naomi]

..... only our relationship with our Lord and master. We strive to be "good" because we love him and want to please him; not as a ticket to the kingdom.

[Bravus]

Yeah, I dunno. I take all the points about the nature of salvation and so on... but then I read the parable of the sheep and the goats, where the criterion is what they did (and didn't) do. I think sometimes we put the emphasis too far one way, with the result that we come off as saying it's not necessary to be good. I know that's what we mean, but that's the danger we're tending to fall into these days, rather than the excessive emphasis on good works that we had in the past.

[Nicodema]

Bravus, you have a good point re: Matthew 25. However, one of the problems that I see (at least in the SDA church) is that the moment people start arguing for "the necessity of being good" it is NEVER about the works listed in Matthew 25. It is always about dress code, music, earrings, cheese or meat, how well one can play the stoic in the face of provocation, "guarding the edges of the Sabbath" and other assorted "disputable matters" (see Romans 14 for handling such).

If we'd just stick to the Matthew 25 template, I'd be all in favor of resurrecting a little of the ol' "gotta be good to get in". Particularly if -- ooh, pardon me if truth hurts here! -- it includes adjustment in one's politics accordingly (meaning, that is, in the Matthew 25 direction).

[LifeHiscost]

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olger said:

God is in the business of redeeming & changing lives.

Bless you,

olger

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I noticed not one of those characteristics enumerated, indicated that salvation came as a result, which coincides

with this text.

[:"red"] "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." [/] Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

To redeem means to buy back, something a slave cannot do since their labor only serves to pacify their master.

[:"red"] "He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form." [/] Philippians 2:7 NLT

When Jesus died, He paid the cost of our sins. Then all who accept that, for the payment of their sins, are free to receive the gift of life. Since they have nothing of their own, all must come from the Giver of life, including all that maintains life. If a condition of Life is "to be good", that also must come from the Giver of all good.

[:"red"] "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights" [/] James 1:17 KJV

[Bravus]

I'm agreeing with Nico about the definition of what 'being good' actually means, in scriptural terms (remember, 3000 texts about how we treat those less fortunate).

I'm agreeing with LHC (and the rest of those in the thread) about the specific theology of salvation, and that it's a free gift of God, not earned.

I guess another way of stating my point is that perhaps our concentration is excessively on salvation. (To be fair, that's the theme of this thread.) But perhaps 'what will get me into heaven?' is too narrow a question: 'what does God require of me?' might be a better one.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Stan that is a good question, this is my answer, I hope its's good

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

If we are doing good, in Christ, we are good regardless of our faults, mistakes and sin. All it takes is to ask for forgiveness and the sin is cleared and forgotten of God. Think of David, God never brought up his sins and yet he committed some pretty gross sins. Being good as a result of God working in and through us will assure us of heaven in our hearts, but we are assured of heaven because of Christ and therefore it is by grace through faith.

On a side note:

When Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "There's only One that is good" He was referring to diety, or the trinity. He certainly was not saying that it was only the Father that was good and not He Himself or the Holy Spirit. Jesus was making a specific point when He said that. Also, I don't believe that He was saying that there is no one that has any good in them at all. That would be contradicting what He said earlier. All good things come from God and those who let God in their hearts will do good. Even wicked people can do good, by giving food to their children.

The statements in Romans 3 are referring to the condition of mankind without Christ, for the purpose of revealing that, (because of this condition) none can justify themselves or become righteous by works of the law or good works of any kind, no, we are justified by faith and made righteous by faith.

Norman

[olger]

Dear Cost: Please know that I agree.

Salvation is a wonderful gift, well out of reach of earnings. If fact, we have each earned damnation.

It is worth noting however, the vital distinction between legalism & obedience.

When we turn our "guns" on legalism we would do well to avoid shooting at obedience. Some fail to adjust their aim.

It is also worth noting the incredible accuracy of God's Word regarding the consequences that destroy many lives. God never intended that our lives would be paralyzed by consequences.

Love in Him,

olger

Ps. Thanks for sharing the Word with us, Norman.

[LifeHiscost]

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Bravus said:

'what does God require of me?'....

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Being a person who believes there is an answer from the Word, for every question asked, that's an easy one to answer.

[:"red"] "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"[/] Micah 6:8 KJV

[:"red"] "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, and to love kindness and mercy, and to humble yourself and walk humbly with your God?" [/] Micah 6:8 AMP

OTOH, the necessity to spend much time to stress the importance of obedience to those who know they are children of God, is to dwell on the redundant. Something like, When you are born (again) you must make sure the blood (Jesus') is flowing. However when a person is dead (in their sins) it is an absolute essential, they hear the voice of the Lifegiver.

And that of course, is where we come in.

[:"red"] "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." [/] Mark 16:15 KJV

[:"red"] " And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. " [/] NLT

[:"red"] "...many of the people who heard their message believed it..." [/] Acts 4:4 NLT

[:"red"] "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" [/] Romans 10:14 NASB

Keep the faith!!

[Bravus]

Sounds great to me!

[lazarus]

" salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it Eph 2:9 NLT

"not of yourselves lest any man should boast" KJV

If we say that being good can secure for us a peace of heaven we deny the simple statement "for by Grace are ye saved, through faith"

The gospel is good news and there is no better news than understanding that salvation is free!

[Bravus]

Absolutely. But what do you then say to my friend who has seen a prisoner who was a Christian but who raped little girls. He was forgiven, and went and did it again... In other words, an over-emphasis on the 'not by works' gospel, where we say 'works are irrelevant to salvation', can leave us mired in evil and sin. We need to read James properly, more often, rather than sticking with Paul so much.

[lazarus]

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Bravus said:

'works are irrelevant to salvation', can leave us mired in evil and sin. We need to read James properly, more often, rather than sticking with Paul so much.

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Of course you know that wasn't my point....that works are irrelevant. Works are relevant but certainly not a condition of salvation. Works are evidence of a saving relationship with God. James is saying "OK you're saved....let me see some evidence of it then" Hence faith without works is dead.

Most discussions around James center on the issue of "works" when infact his primary focus is 'Faith'. He seeks to contrast 2 types of fath. Faith that produces works and faith that is merely an intellectual acceptance; demons have that kind of faith.

Its interesting that both Paul and James use Abraham as an example Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 2:22 You see his [Abraham] faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. NLT

Your friend in jail has given evidence of his lack of a life changing faith in God, his distance from God, his need for help.

The good news is that God is merciful and he will make is right before him and so filll us with his spirit that we can produce the fruit [works] Thats good news!

[LifeHiscost]

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Bravus said:

Absolutely. But what do you then say to my friend who has seen a prisoner who was a Christian but who raped little girls. He was forgiven, and went and did it again... In other words, an over-emphasis on the 'not by works' gospel, where we say 'works are irrelevant to salvation', can leave us mired in evil and sin. We need to read James properly, more often, rather than sticking with Paul so much.

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"who was a Christian" would seem to define the gentleman, that he is not what he professes to be. Jesus made the statement that if we love Him, we [:"red"] "will keep His commandments". [/] Then it seems axiomatic that we won't keep His commandments if we do not love Him.

[:"red"] "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." [/] 1 John 3:10 KJV

Seems like that one who raped, then raped again, ought to be clearly defined by what he continued to practice.

[:"red"] "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." [/] Matthew 7:20 KJV

[:"red"] "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." [/] Revelation 2:9 KJV

Keep the faith!

[Clio]

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LifeHiscost said:

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Bravus said:

Absolutely. But what do you then say to my friend who has seen a prisoner who was a Christian but who raped little girls. He was forgiven, and went and did it again... In other words, an over-emphasis on the 'not by works' gospel, where we say 'works are irrelevant to salvation', can leave us mired in evil and sin. We need to read James properly, more often, rather than sticking with Paul so much.

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"who was a Christian" would seem to define the gentleman, that he is not what he professes to be. Jesus made the statement that if we love Him, we [:"red"] "will keep His commandments". [/] Then it seems axiomatic that we won't keep His commandments if we do not love Him.

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Oh indeed. Let us continue to judge by outward appearance. We see so clearly.

Abba will continue to forgive such as long as the heart is truly repentant. HOWEVER that will not absolve the repentant sinner from walking out the consequences of his actions. Forgiveness doesn't mean there are no consequences.

Just because my particular besetting sin that I struggle and struggle and struggle with is not as heinous, in the eyes of man, does not mean that it is any better in the eyes of Abba!

[Nicodema]

Clio normally we see eye to eye on things but not here. A man who "continues to rape little girls" is not a Christian, regardless of WHAT he "believes".

"Even the devils believe, and tremble."

[Clio]

Yes... even the devils believe and tremble.

And while I would not invite this person into my home, nor would I mitigate any of his punishment, neither can I find it in me to make the statement "He is a Christian." nor the statement "He is not a Christian".

I cannot know his heart. I can only know his actions.

And I can only know that there are some things I have repeatedly done, hating myself all the while for doing them, confessing, repenting, asking for forgiveness... and I find myself doing it again! Still. Yesterday. Hating myself and unable to stop myself. What a nightmare if that were something that hurt others. Especially a child. Especially a child.

When I had to deal with the baggage I was carrying around because my beloved step-father molested me when I was 10/11, I had such gut-wrenching hatred and betrayal... It is only by Jesus special blessing that I no longer carry that hatred.

[Nicodema]

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And I can only know that there are some things I have repeatedly done, hating myself all the while for doing them, confessing, repenting, asking for forgiveness... and I find myself doing it again! Still. Yesterday. Hating myself and unable to stop myself. What a nightmare if that were something that hurt others ....

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Yes, well those of us who have to live with such nightmares -- and it can be a nightmare even if it does not involve anything physical or criminal -- do NOT get the luxury of imagining ourselves "Christian" at the same time.

It's not that I don't see your point -- I do -- it's that the Biblical injunction of "by their fruits ye shall know them" seems to take precedence here, and of course "fruits" is always in the eye of the judgment-passing beholders, is it not? Hence the reference I made earlier (or was that in a different thread?) to those perpetrating the principle of Matthew 18:18-20 as a form of vicious sorcery for their own self-serving and corrupt desires. They "get off" on excluding people -- ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO CONFRONT THEM WHEN THEY ARE "FULL OF IT" -- and we are OH SO EMINENTLY EXCLUDABLE when we are so obviously imperfect that it "shows". ...............................

[Clio]

*sigh*

My finite human brain can't even wrap itself aroudn a reply right now.

I don't know if it ever can. I can only trust that Abba knows what He's doing, and that His will be done.

The state of his heart I cannopt judge, his actions I deplore.

While it is not the same, it is sufficiently so that it triggers me to hades and back even thinking about it.

*safe gentle hugs anyway*