The Trinity doctrine

[JoeMo]

12 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

is that a reason to consider Him less of the Deity?

To consider an entity (or a power) to be a Deity is to consider it worthy of worship.  Since there is no command or example in scripture to worship the the Holy Spirit,  it is easy to infer that it is not an entity to be worshiped.  We worship IN the Spirit; but we don't worship the Spirit.

[8thdaypriest]

Because God the FATHER has sent a representation of His Son - "the spirit of His Son" - to be with us and in us, does not mean that representation is another divine BEING, to be worshiped equally with God our Father and Christ His Son.

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." (NKJ)

Revelation 5:13  "Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne,  and to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Ephesians 5:20  “. . . giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ . . .”

Ephesians 4:6  “... one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

Luke 11:2 “So He said to them, ‘When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven’”  (Matt. 6:10).

[LifeHiscost]

14 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Indeed........ All good things come to those who patiently do their
duty and who are not focused on self. Jesus said the last shall be first and the
one who has received the least seems to be the Holy Spirit and I cannot see it
happening that He will always be the least among the Godhead. They are said to
be equal members. Really, can you see any of the Godhead who hasn't had the goal
of glorifying the others.

Likewise, we should each be glorifying someone other than ourselves, be it God
who receives our worship or even our fellow humans who should be loved as much
as we love ourselves.

In the entirety of the post.

I've just been watching a program concerning the false gods that have developed in men's mind, and in these last days how comic books have helped to fashion the minds of the young to develop the view that being great in the world's view is enhanced by exaltation of one's self and the more of others one controls, the greater one is.

This is natural behavior from birth and typifies the need to be "born again", accomplished only by continuous submission to Jesus as Lord.

⁷ And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, ⁸ but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them^[a] in heaven any longer....Revelation 12

John 10:10

The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly...

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

 

[Choi]

On 11/7/2016 at 3:00 PM, Kevin H said:

Because this is the very heart of the work of Satan. Studies in Mrs. White point out that she sees Satan as having 3 deceptions. Each deception is against a member of the Trinity. Everything he does is to shake loose the hold on the trinity. Satan does not need to convince all of us to become atheists, if he can weaken our understanding of the trinity he has inroads to getting us

Can you help me with this scripture at John 14:28 King James Version (KJV). Seems like it shows that the Son is not equal to the Father, 

²⁸ Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

[Choi]

On 3/29/2017 at 8:31 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The Scriptures command worship of God the Father AND of Jesus His Son.  They do NOT command worship of a third divine being. 

There is no example of anyone praying to the Spirit, or praising the Spirit, or glorifying the Spirit, or thanking the Spirit.   There certainly is no such action commanded with the understanding that "the Spirit" is a third divine being.

John heard every being in Heaven and on earth saying with loud voice, "Glory be to the ONE who sits on the throne, AND to the Lamb".   I count only TWO beings glorified here. 

We can pray FOR the holy spirit, and God will send forth "the spirit OF His Son into our hearts".  And when that spirit OF His Son fills our hearts, what does it cry out?  Abba Father!  Once again - I count only two beings.

So - for myself - I will continue to worship, and glorify God the Father AND His Son Jesus Christ. 

I see no command to do otherwise.

My friend you are right in one part when you said there is no scriptural basis of worshiping the spirit. But you are wrong on the part when you said that you will worship both Jesus AND God the Father. 

Let me explain briefly the reasons why:

1. Jesus and the Father are two separate being. They are not one, but two. Many scriptures support that teaching (Which I will share some from subsequent numbers.)

2. Jesus Christ tells us how and to whom we should pray and worship when he said at Matt. 6: 9, "Then like this: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name."

3. Jesus acknowledge that it is only to the father we should worship. He said to Satan, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him ONLY shalt thou serve.” (Matthew 4:10)

4. But the question is, does Jesus claimed to be the father and call himself as one? The answer is NO. Jesus instructed his disciples: “Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.”—Matthew 23:9. Obviously Jesus is not referring to himself as the father. He is in the flesh and on earth, and he called of someone in HEAVEN as his father. 

5. Apostle Peter acknowledged the Father as the only GOD, when he said at 1 Peter 1:3 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy..." Noticed also how he separate them as two as distinct individuals.

6. Rev 14: 7, admonished us to “Worship God who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” Clearly we cannot worship Jesus because he never claimed to be the creator. In fact he is the Firstborn of all creations. 

 

As a conclusion, I do believe that we should direct our attention and worship only the father and not Jesus. For He is a "Jealous God", he requires exclusive devotion and worship.- Deutronomy 4:24

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

8 hours ago, Choi said:

Clearly we cannot worship Jesus because he never claimed to be the creator. In fact he is the Firstborn of all creations.

As a conclusion, I do believe that we should direct our attention and worship only the father and not Jesus. For He is a "Jealous God", he requires exclusive devotion and worship.- Deutronomy 4:24

 

The SON of God is worshiped in Scripture

    Philippians  2:10-11  “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”  (Notice that only two divine Beings are worshiped.)

    Hebrews 1:6  “But when He again brings the first born into the world, He [God the Father] says: ‘Let all the angels of God worship Him.’”

John 5:23  “. . . that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.  He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”

Matthew 2:11 Wise men directed of the Holy Spirit “worshiped” the infant Jesus.

Luke 24:51-52   “Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.  And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,”

    Revelation  5:13 “And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

God our FATHER is greater than all.  He is greater/higher than His Son, who is ALSO a divine being (God).

John 1:3  “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 6:38-39 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.  This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

Revelation 3:12 [Christ speaking to John - POST resurrection/ascension] “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.”

The Son of God created "all things".  In doing so, He carried out the will of His Father.

    Colossians l:12-16 “ ... giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”

What I do NOT SEE - in all these passages - is a THIRD DIVINE BEING.

 

[Dr. Shane]

      I originally sent this as a letter to a family member.  This is a long post but the topic is lengthy and not something that can be dealt with lightly.  The words “Trinity” and “Godhead” within the Seventh-day Adventist church are used interchangeably.  Some rabble rousers, that call themselves “historic Adventists,” try to split hairs over this.  The church manual states, “That the Godhead, or Trinity, consists of the Eternal Father, a personal spiritual Being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, infinite in wisdom and love; the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, through whom all things were created and through whom the salvation of the redeemed hosts will be accomplished; the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, the great regenerating power in the work of redemption.”

     The Ellen White quotations in this post will be blue.  The Bible quotations will be red.  That will make the post easier to follow as you read it.

 

Ellen White’s Position

 

     Adventists do not believe in the Trinity because of Ellen White.  We believe in it because of the Bible.  However, if we misunderstood the Bible, one would logically think that God would have revealed that error to Ellen White during her ministry.  It is interesting that Ellen White did not clarify the doctrine of the Trinity until after her husband died.  James White did not believe in the Trinity.  We will never know if it was Ellen that desired to keep peace or if it was God.  But there is something to learn from the fact that an issue was not made out of differing beliefs on the Trinity.  While James White did not believe in it, no one who believed in the Trinity was denied membership because of it. The lesson seems obvious; God does not want the doctrine of the Trinity to divide the Seventh-day Adventist church.  The rabble rousers today are using it to do exactly that. 

     It is also important to understand how language works and how words change meanings over a period of time.  The Catholic understanding of the “Trinity” during the founding period of the Adventist church was much different than how the Trinity is understood today.   The Catholic church did not teach that the Trinity was three separate persons back then like what is commonly taught and believed today.  The rabble rousers like to taunt mainstream Adventists spouting off that the word Trinity never appears in the Bible.  Such a comment means nothing to those that understand how language changes over a period of time.  The word rapture never appears in the Bible either but all Christians believe that the saved will be raptured when Jesus comes although there is disagreement if it will be in secret or a grand and spectacular event.  The word Bible never appears in the Bible but all Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God.

     Ellen White described the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Godhead in 1898 when she wrote the Desire of Ages.  “Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer.”[ii]  Instead of admitting they are wrong, the rabble rousers actually try to cast doubt on this passage from the Desire of Ages.  They question if it was actually written by Ellen White or try to cast doubt on its clear meaning.  Fortunately, the White Estate has all the supportive documents to prove it was written by her and its meaning is as simple and clear as it sounds.

     In 1893 Ellen White wrote, “The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name.  He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality.”[iii]

     In a document Ellen White wrote in 1900 she said, “The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”[iv]  In the same year, she also wrote, “The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into a covenant relation with God.”[v]  She also specifies, “Three distinct agencies, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, work together for human beings.”[vi]

     In a letter Ellen White wrote in November of 1905 she said, “There are three living persons in the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.”[vii]

     Later, in 1906, Ellen White clearly stated, “The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.”[viii]  In a sermon she preached that same year, she said, “You are born of God, and you stand under the sanction of the power of the three holiest Beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling.”[ix]

 

Trinity in the Bible

 

     There are only a few of places in the Bible that mention all three persons of the Trinity together.  What most often occurs is two of the persons being discussed in relation to Each other.  The Great Commission is perhaps the most well-known verse with all three persons of the Trinity mentioned.  “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”[x]  In this passage each Person of the Godhead is given the same standing.  Peter makes reference to the three Persons of the Godhead in a similar way.  “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with His blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”[xi] Notice how the “work of the Spirit” is written in context of a separate Deity.

     One of the issues that causes the controversy of the Trinity is a passage found in 1 John 5:7, 8.  A portion of these verses were added into the epistle in 1522 by Erasmus under pressure from the church and his manuscript was used by the KJV translators.  So this passage is something found in English versions of the Bible but absent in many Bibles translated into other languages.  It shouldn’t be an issue because the doctrine of the Trinity existed before the passage was added in 1522.  However the rabble rousers will use the story to cast doubt on the Trinity among the gullible that do not know the history of how the passage found its way into the epistle.  Some Bible scholars believe the church was right to add it in 1522 because there is some evidence to believe it was part of the original epistle which was eliminated during the Arian Controversy of the 4^th Century.  Regardless if the passage should or should not be included in the epistle, it should not cause any doubt about the Trinity doctrine because it is not the basis of belief forming the doctrine.

     The KJV reads like this, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”  A correct translation of the passage would read, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”  The incorrect passage teaches the doctrine of the Trinity in such a way that if it were genuine, there would be no disagreement.  Verse six reads, “This is He that came by water and blood.  And the Spirit the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.”  Water refers to baptism and blood refers to the human body of Christ.  The Spirit here is clearly spoken of as a separate Person from Christ.

     Jesus said, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”[xii]  The Holy Spirit is clearly spoken of as a separate Person in the Godhead.  Jesus said the Father would send “the Holy Spirit”  In some passages of the Bible, the Holy Spirit is referred to as God’s Spirit and could be confused as somehow being the omnipresence of the Father.  That is not the case here.  This verse indicates that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all different Persons of the Godhead.

     In signing off to the Corinthians, Paul wrote, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”[xiii]  This personification of the Trinity equals that of the Great Commission given by Christ.  It clearly distinguishes each Member of the Godhead as a separate Person.

     Peter also personifies each Member of the Trinity.  “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied”[xiv]

     Other verses in the Bible show how the different Members of the Godhead are One.  Jesus said, “I and My Father are one.”[xv]  John eloquently introduced Jesus as God.  “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”[xvi]  Paul wrote, “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him.”[xvii]  Jesus said, “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me”[xviii]  Paul wrote, “For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.”[xix]  “In Whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit”[xx]  “How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”[xxi] 

     The Bible doesn’t go into detail enough to answer all of our questions about the Trinity.  The same is true about Creation and the Flood.  We have many questions about things that the Bible just doesn’t give us enough information on.  The Bible tells us what we need to know – not always what we want to know.  For me, this means that if it wasn’t important enough for God to inspire men or women to write about it, then it isn’t important enough for us to worry about.  That is probably why the Adventist founders never denied membership because of it.

 

Terminal Uniqueness

 

     In the addict and alcoholic recovery circles there is a term known as terminal uniqueness.  Addicts are not the only ones that struggle with terminal uniqueness.  There are some people that just want to be different.  They have a hard time playing with others.  They are egocentric.  They think they know more than others.  They think they discovered a secret.  They figured out a mystery.  They know something the rest of us don’t.

     We see people like this come into recovery circles all the time.  They die drunk or addicted.  They don’t need to work the 12 Steps because they figured out a better way.  Sadly, many of them have a warped idea of religion and think that because they believe in Jesus, Allah or whoever their God is, they don’t need to work the 12 Steps.  Of course, that is like a diabetic saying that since Jesus can heal him, he doesn’t need to take his medication.  No doubt, Jesus can heal but doesn’t normally work that way.  Some of these folks go on the marijuana maintenance program and thus never take inventory of themselves, never make amends and never become better people.  Most of them end up drinking again and dying drunk.  That is why we so often call this condition terminal uniqueness.

     The folks in religious circles don’t normally die drunk in because many of them don’t drink.  They are self-righteous.  They are like the playground bully that makes himself feel good by insulting others.  They “know” something.  This “something” could be the health benefits of being vegan.  It could be the dangers of eating mushrooms.  It could be something about the human nature of Christ.  It could be the Trinity issue.  It could be a prophecy they claim is misunderstood.  It could be the pagan origins of Easter or some other holiday.  It may be the proper pronunciation of God’s name or the belief that we should never even say the name of God at all.  Whatever it is, they know it and if you don’t learn it and jump on their bandwagon, then you are wrong.

     These types of people have a very difficult time joining a religious body because they don’t want to be just “one of the members.”  They need to be important.  The irony is that on their own, they accomplish very little and often nothing.  They win few or no souls for Christ.  If they were to join an organized religion, their efforts would be combined with that of many others and as a result they could make a powerful impact on the work of God.  But that is too humbling.  Who wants to be just a finger, eyelash or knee in the body of Christ? 

 

Disputable Matters

 

     In Romans chapter 14 the Apostle Paul writes a master essay on how to live and let live.  The issues he deals with in that chapter were hot-button issues of his day.  The church still deals with some of them today but there are also some new ones that are not listed there.  “Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.”[xxii]  I am not of the opinion that it is wrong to doubt the Trinity, eat as a vegan, pronounce God’s name in a specific manner, or abstain from celebrating certain holidays.  However I do believe it is wrong to allow such opinions to create a controversy within the church.  The message of Romans 14 can be summarized as “different strokes for different folks.”  There are some matters that are not disputable such as Paul told the Corinthians.  “Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”[xxiii]  Adventists would also say that the Ten Commandments are not a disputable matter.  “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot nor one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”[xxiv] However there is a long list of opinions and beliefs that fall into the category of disputable matters.

 

Gossip In the Church

 

     Gossip, in recovery circles is called character assassination by another name.  The rabble rousers love to feed the gossip mill.  The Bible says “Without wood the fire goes out, so without gossip the quarrel calms down”[xxv]  Rabble rousers want to keep things stirred up.  So they not only make an issue out of disputable doctrines, they start targeting those that disagree with them.  They have gone as far as to accuse well-known and established Adventist pastors as being Jesuits infiltrating the church.  Well let me share something.  Satan doesn’t need to use Jesuits to infiltrate the church when he has the self-righteous, rabble rousers.

     The Bible speaks very strongly against gossip.  “He that uttereth a slander, is a fool.”[xxvi] As Christians we are to lift others up.  The Hebrew word translated slander here means an evil report or defaming.   It is not wise to go around talking bad about people.  “A froward man soweth strife; and a whisperer seperateth chief friends”[xxvii]  The whisperer is none other than a gossip.  They talk behind the backs of others.  How many of the rabble rousers that criticize those in church leadership positions have actually taken the time to contact the leaders and speak to them directly?  Few do and those that do most often do not do so with a humble attitude and a spirit of reconciliation.  “The words of a gossip are wounds that go down into the innermost part of the belly”[xxviii]  Words hurt and can do a lot of damage. “He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth lips.”[xxix]  Here we find advise to stay away from the gossips and rabble rousers, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”[xxx]  I love this verse because of the contrast.  The corrupt communication is referring to gossip.  It hurts.  The pain goes down into the innermost part of the belly.  However when we say good things, those are edifying.  We are to say nice, positive things that lift people up and minister grace.   “Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.”[xxxi]  Wow!  Those that love gossip will eat the fruit thereof.  Those that love edifying, graceful words will eat the fruit thereof.

    

Doctrines of the Devil

 

     Speaking about Lucifer, Ezekiel wrote, “By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence and thou hast sinned.”[xxxii]  The same Hebrew word translated as merchandise here is translated as traffic later in the chapter – also referring to Lucifer’s sin.  So what was this merchandise that Lucifer was trafficking?  The Apostle John gives us the answer in Revelation.  “the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”[xxxiii]  Lucifer was selling a story.

     In 1893 Ellen White wrote, “Let all be careful not to make an outcry against the only people who are fulfilling the description given of the remnant people, who keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus. . . . God has a distinct people, a church on earth, second to none, but superior to all in their facilities to teach the truth, to vindicate the law of God. . . . My brother, if you are teaching that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, you are wrong”[xxxiv]  The Adventist church today is still the only organized church lifting up the Commandments of God and the cross of Jesus Christ.

     In 1902 she wrote, “Seventh-day Adventists have been chosen by God as a peculiar people, separate from the world. By the great cleaver of truth He has cut them out from the quarry of the world and brought them into connection with Himself. He has made them His representatives and has called them to be ambassadors for Him in the last work of salvation. The greatest wealth of truth ever entrusted to mortals, the most solemn and fearful warnings ever sent by God to man, have been committed to them to be given to the world.”[xxxv]

     In support of the organized church, Ellen White wrote to the General Conference session in 1909.  This was read to the delegates.  “Oh, how Satan would rejoice if he could succeed in his efforts to get in among this people and disorganise the work at a time when thorough organisation is essential and will be the greatest power to keep out spurious uprisings and to refute claims not endorsed by the Word of God! We want to hold the lines evenly, that there shall be no breaking down of the system of organisation and order that has been built up by wise, careful labour. License must not be given to disorderly elements that desire to control the work at this time…  Some have advanced the thought that, as we near the close of time, every child of God will act independently of any religious organisation. But I have been instructed by the Lord that in this work there is no such thing as every man's being independent.”[xxxvi]  Notice how she stated that license must not be given to disorderly elements.  Those are the rabble rousers.  Those are people telling us not to pay our tithe to the organized church and not to attend church services affiliated with the organized church.

     With respect to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church, Ellen White wrote, “God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for in so doing he despises the voice of God”[xxxvii] She also wrote, “God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected.”[xxxviii]  God speaks through His church in the same way that the Traditions of 12-Step organizations suggest that He speaks to them – through a group conscience.  Like 12-Step organizations, the Adventist church is a “we” organization and not a “me” organization.  God speaks through the General Conference through “His united people in church capacity.”  The rabble rousers don’t like that because when the united people in the church make a decision they don’t like, they want to pick up their toys and go play someplace else.  They don’t play well with others.  They are selfish, self-centered and egotistical.  They are not able to submit to a “we” organization because they want it to be a “me” organization.

     Ellen White warned not to team up with the rabble rousers.  “The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light that is opposed to such a message. . . .  I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganised or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be”[xxxix]   “I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organised body through whom He will work. . . . When anyone is drawing apart from the organised body of God's commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgement against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track.”[xl]

     Here Ellen White states the church will endure until the end of the world even though there are evils within it.  That means that just because the organized church may do something wrong, it will still remain God’s church until the end of the world.  “Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. . . . Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralised by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counselled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard.”[xli] 

     Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Rev. 12:10).  Satan sets brother against brother.  He accuses saints that are doing good work of having bad motives.  Satan promotes gossip and discord.  He is at war with the remnant church (Rev. 12:17).  Satan also makes a mountain out of a mole hill.  When the church does do something wrong, Satan will be sure to exaggerate it in the minds of the church’s critics.  The Seventh-day Adventist church is the only organized Christian denomination that is lifting up the Ten Commandments as God’s law of love and the cross of Christ as the sinner’s ticket to heaven.  There is no other religious organization in the world that Satan despises more than the Seventh-day Adventist church.

     The Seventh-day Adventist church is the turtle on a post.  When we see a turtle on a post, we know it didn’t get their on its own.  Someone put it there.  So it is with the Seventh-day Adventist church.  Only the Catholic church has more schools and hospitals than the Adventist church does.  Hope Channel and 3ABN are on cable networks all over the world.  They are on DISH Network and DirecTV.  We have satellites sending the gospel message into Muslim countries and more Muslims convert to Adventism than any other religion.  Within the US, the Seventh-day Adventist church is the fastest growing denomination.  The Mormons are in a distant second place.  The chaplain of the US Senate is an Adventist as is Dr. Ben Carson, Secretary of House and Urban Development.  Who would have thought 150 years ago that the small group of 300, rising out of the Great Disappointment, would grow to almost 20 million?  Today we have members in the US Senate, House of Representatives and the White House.  This year, one of our members was memorialized in an Oscar-winning film for his faith which led him to be awarded the Medal of Honor.

     It is little wonder that Satan targets the Seventh-day Adventist church.  He knows it is the only organization with the truth.  Contrast the difference between a cruise liner church and an aircraft carrier church.  The cruise liner church holds a service and discusses Bible doctrine.  They have their potluck and visit with each other.  They feel good about themselves.  The aircraft carrier church is reaching out to the world.  Such is the Adventist church.  Just consider all the outreach ministries of the Adventist church.

 

1.     Prison Ministries

2.     Women’s Ministries

3.     Men’s Ministries

4.     Singles Ministries

5.     Family Ministries

6.     Music Ministries

7.     Vacation Bible School

8.     Adventurers

9.     Pathfinders

10. Community Services (Dorcus)

11. ADRA

12. Healthful Living Classes

13. Health Screening Fairs

14. Adventist World Radio

15. Maranatha Volunteers International

16. Amazing Facts

17. It Is Written

18. Voice of Prophecy

19. Faith For Today

20. Adventist Education

21. Adventist hospitals

22. Adventist nursing homes

23. Signs of the Times

24. Pacific Press Publishing

25. Adventist Youth Service

26. Stop Smoking Programs

27. Gladventist (ministry for gays)

28. Christian Record Services (ministry for the blind)

29. Marriage Encounters (enrichment seminars)

30. Hope Channel

31. 3ABN

32. SafeTV

33. Adventist Recovery Ministries

 

     The Adventist church is an army with battalions in every part of the globe carrying the gospel to every nation and tribal region.  It is little wonder that Satan realizes the threat the church poses to him and rallies as many as he can to attack the church, point out its defects and exaggerate its errors.

     Misery loves company.  Satan is miserable and desires to take as many people down with him as he can.  I will not stand with him.  I will stand with God’s remnant people.  I will not join the rabble rousers who accuse the organized church of this and that.  Instead of pointing out errors, I will join in the work of carrying the message to a dying world.  Who is on the Lord’s side?  Answer now His call.

     Adventists are small in number but make a big impact.  There is one Adventist for every 391 people in the world.  One in every five people are Muslim.  One in every six people in the world are Catholic.  One in every seven are Hindu  One in every 15 are Buddhist.  Satan would like to see the Adventist movement even smaller than it is.  Former Adventists are his weapon of choice in attacking the church and hindering its work.  I will not join the rebellion against God’s remnant church.  On Sabbath morning, I will be found worshipping with God’s organized Seventh-day Adventist church.

     It takes humility to be a small part of something big but the irony is that is how we can make the greatest difference in the lives of others.  That is how God chooses to use us.  The church is a body and each member is simple a small part of the body.  It takes real humility to remain part of the body and stay focused on the mission in front of us when we see erroring decisions made by leadership in the body.  Our ego wants to rise up and demonstrate but, with few exceptions, that would not make us more useful to God.  It would not bring more people to Christ.  I would not feed the orphans, heal the sick, encourage the prisoners or teach the children.  It would only do harm to the gospel and God’s work.

 

---

Church Manual, page 180

[ii] Desire of Ages, Page 671

[iii] Manuscript 93, 1893

[iv] Manuscript 57, 1900 – SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, page 1074

[v] Manuscript 27a, 1900 – SDA Bible Commentary, vol 6, page 1075

[vi] Manuscript 27a, 1900, page 7

[vii] Manuscript 21, 1906, page 4

[viii] Manuscript 20, 1906, page 9

[ix] Sermons and Talks, vol 1, page 367

[x] Matthew 28:19 (emphasis added)

[xi] 1 Peter 1:1,2 (emphasis added)

[xii] John 14:26

[xiii] 2 Corinthians 13:14

[xiv] 1 Peter 1:2

[xv] John 10:30

[xvi] John 1:1

[xvii] 1 Corinthians 8:6

[xviii] John 15:26

[xix] Ephesians 2:18

[xx] Ephesians 2:22

[xxi] Hebrews 9:14

[xxii] Romans 14:1

[xxiii] 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10

[xxiv] Matthew 5:18

[xxv] Proverbs 26:20

[xxvi] Proverbs 10:18

[xxvii] Proverbs 16:28

[xxviii] Proverbs 18:8

[xxix] Proverbs 20:19

[xxx] Ephesians 4:29

[xxxi] Proverbs 18:21

[xxxii] Ezekiel 28:16

[xxxiii] Revelation 12:10

[xxxiv] Testimony to Ministers, pages 50, 58, 59

[xxxv] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 7, page 138

[xxxvi] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 9, pages 257, 258 (emphasis added)

[xxxvii] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 3, page 417

[xxxviii] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 3, page 451

[xxxix] 2 Selected Messages, pages 63, 68, 69

[xl] 3 Selected Messages, pages 17, 18 (emphasis added)

[xli] Testimonies to Ministers, pages 45, 49 (emphasis added)

 

[JoeMo]

On 4/1/2017 at 1:03 AM, Choi said:

. Jesus and the Father are two separate being. They are not one, but two. Many scriptures support that teaching (Which I will share some from subsequent numbers.)

Hi Choi,

Welcome to Club Adventist.  I'm going to try to give you my take on this, because I have struggled with it in the past.  Before I became a SDA, I almost became a JW.  So I had to study this out before I committed to Adventism.  Here's the scriptures that changed my mind:

1. Jesus accepted worship (Matt. 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Luke 24:52, John 9:38)  So either Jesus is a divine being worthy of worship or He is a charlatan posing as God.  I choose to believe the former.  In contrast, when John fell to worship the angel in Rev.19:10, the angel warned him "don't do it!"

2. We are commanded to worship Him (Deut. 23:43; Hebrews 1:6

3. Jesus and the Father are One God; Jesus is the express image of the Father (John 10:30; John 14:7-9; Heb. 1:2-4)

The first chapter of John and the first chapter of Hebrews are very convincing evidence that Jesus is God; and worthy of worship.

Is Jesus subject to the Father?  Yes and no.  Jesus and the Father are both Yahweh; and are therefore equal.  However, just as there is a hierarchy in the earthly realm, so there is in the heavenly realm.  My pastor and I are equal as men, but I choose to submit myself to his authority in matters of the church.  In the same way, Jesus and the Father are equals (both made of divine "God stuff"); but Jesus submits to His Father in matters concerning the Kingdom.  In turn, the Father has granted Jesus all power and authority.

 

Blessings to you in your quest for truth!

[B/W Photodude]

Probably not many are faithful studiers of their Sabbath school lessons (of that group, mea culpa),
but the last quarters lessons would be a good one for someone to get a quarterly and study them. The
whole quarter was on the Holy Spirit.

[JoeMo]

Shane,

That was a very well thought-out letter.  But - just to be clear - I don't post my opinions of the Trinity or Holy Spirit to be a "rabble rouser"; and I doubt that Rachel does either.  We are simply stating our current beliefs and the reasoning behind it.  If people want to believe in a triune God, they are free to do so.  I see a single God who manifests Himself as two beings - the Father in the heavenly realm and the Son in the physical realm.  Because I put my faith in the Son, I doubt that this will be salvational issue.  If I get to the Kingdom and Jesus tells me He disagrees with my position on the Trinity or divine personage of the Holy Spirit, with my open mind I am confident that I can be easily persuaded to accept His side of the story.

[LifeHiscost]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Shane,

That was a very well thought-out letter.  But - just to be clear - I don't post my opinions of the Trinity or Holy Spirit to be a "rabble rouser"; and I doubt that Rachel does either.  We are simply stating our current beliefs and the reasoning behind it.  If people want to believe in a triune God, they are free to do so.  I see a single God who manifests Himself as two beings - the Father in the heavenly realm and the Son in the physical realm.  Because I put my faith in the Son, I doubt that this will be salvational issue.  If I get to the Kingdom and Jesus tells me He disagrees with my position on the Trinity or divine personage of the Holy Spirit, with my open mind I am confident that I can be easily persuaded to accept His side of the story.

Close to a half century ago, on the advice of the Word, I was baptized into the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and see no reason to change my allegiance now, especially in these end times when there appears every reason to believe this is going on, on a daily basis.

¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

²⁰ Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen....Matthew 28

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come....Matthew 24

⁷ Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

⁸ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

⁹ Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.....1 Peter 5

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[JoeMo]

18 hours ago, Shane said:

Within the US, the Seventh-day Adventist church is the fastest growing denomination.  The Mormons are in a distant second place. 

I have to disagree with this statement.  Other data I have seen indicates that Islam is the fastest growing religion in both the U.S. and the world - mostly due to immigration in the U.S, and birth rate world wide.

The fastest growing "christian" denomination in the U.S is LDS.

 

[Dr. Shane]

8 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Probably not many are faithful studiers of their Sabbath school lessons (of that group, mea culpa),
but the last quarters lessons would be a good one for someone to get a quarterly and study them. The
whole quarter was on the Holy Spirit.

I am a die hard student of the Sabbath School lesson and I highly recommend it to others.  Especially if you communicate with Adventists in other geographical areas.  It is a great way to start a conversation when I see a distant friend pop up on Facebook.  I also enjoy watching Hope Sabbath School and it is nice to know what they are talking about before the program starts.

I think one of the main reasons the Sabbath School lesson was about the Holy Spirit last quarter was to confront the rabble rousers causing such waves within the denomination.  I have to give the GC a big thumbs up on the choice of that subject.  They hit the Trinity again in this weeks lesson on the study of Peter.

[B/W Photodude]

On 4/5/2017 at 7:07 PM, Shane said:

I think one of the main reasons the Sabbath School lesson was about the Holy Spirit last quarter was to confront the rabble rousers causing such waves within the denomination.  I have to give the GC a big thumbs up on the choice of that subject.  They hit the Trinity again in this weeks lesson on the study of Peter.

I think one of the main reasons the Sabbath School lesson was about the Holy Spirit last quarter was to confront the rabble rousers causing such waves within the denomination.

In my church, we onetime had about half the church get up and walk out over the issue of the Holy Spirit. As far as I know, no one has ever pursued them to attempt to bring them back. I plan on seeing if I can get some quarterlies and go find these lost members and see what the possibility they would even consider a discussion and study of the Holy Spirit using these quarterlies. It seems to be one of the "falling away" places for members of the church to trip over and has divided a number of churches. The dark side has to be high giving over this one.

It does trouble me when people lament that we lose so many members thru attrition and no one ever goes looking for them! We have an example of doing this in the parable of the lost sheep. If you really are indwelled by Jesus, His wishes and actions will become your model of your wishes and actions and you will go after the lost. One study done one time on people who left the church showed the thing that bothered former members the most was that no one came looking for them. 

"Confronting the rabble rousers" seems a bit confrontational at first, but I remember Paul went into the synagogues often and disputed with the people there. I think a bit of tug-a-war is necessary for others at times.

[Dr. Shane]

On 4/5/2017 at 10:46 AM, JoeMo said:

I don't post my opinions of the Trinity or Holy Spirit to be a "rabble rouser"; and I doubt that Rachel does either.  We are simply stating our current beliefs and the reasoning behind it.  If people want to believe in a triune God, they are free to do so. 

I am glad you are not a rabble rouser.  As I mentioned in the post, this should not be an issue that divides the church.  When we allow it to do that, Satan wins.

If I hold a position different than the church does, I am always very careful when discussing it.  I do, in fact, hold a different position on divorce than the church does.  When discussing that, I never declare that my position is right and the church is wrong.  I humbly state that my understanding of the Bible is slightly different from the church.  Perhaps the church is right.  It certainly is not something I would want to divide the church over.

[Dr. Shane]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

I plan on seeing if I can get some quarterlies and go find these lost members and see what the possibility they would even consider a discussion and study of the Holy Spirit using these quarterlies.

If you read the long post I made above, I covered a lot of issues that tend to be involved with those that leave the church over an issue.  I do not try to convince them that they are wrong regarding the cherished doctrine they are disputing.  My approach is that we shouldn't divide the church over disputable doctrines.  For me, it comes back to Romans 14.  We are not all going to agree on everything.  Yet there are fundamentals we do agree on.  We join together so we can best fulfill the great commission and carry the gospel message to the entire planet.  It is Satan's studied plan to see how he can best divide the church so that we can never fulfill the great commission.

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, Shane said:

If I hold a position different than the church does, I am always very careful when discussing it.

I try to do the same (sometimes unsuccessfully).  My goal is to simply state my current beliefs and the reason for them.  I don't fault Adventism (or most other denominations) for their articles of faith; but I also don't mind stating my own view.  In my opinion, there are very few fundamental articles of faith that are salvational.  I am grateful for CA because it provides an opportunity to throw new ideas at the wall to see what sticks, as long as discussions don't get personal .

[Dr. Shane]

Who can really say what is "salvational" and what is not?  I believe each person is judged by the light they have and only God knows what that is.  I believe there will be Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, etc that are saved because they lived by the light they had.  The Holy Spirit convicts the heart of truth.  How do I know what the Holy Spirit has convicted others of and what He has not? 

For me, my walk in faith is all about trusting God.  I obey God because I believe He knows better for me than I do.  Am I saved?  I suppose I am.  If I believe what the Bible says about Jesus' sacrificial death, I believe I am.  But that isn't the primary motivation for my faith.  I live for God because I trust He knows what is best for me.  It is like following the operation manual for a piece of equipment I buy.  I follow it because I trust it.

[Gustave]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 4:07 PM, Shane said:

I am a die hard student of the Sabbath School lesson and I highly recommend it to others.  Especially if you communicate with Adventists in other geographical areas.  It is a great way to start a conversation when I see a distant friend pop up on Facebook.  I also enjoy watching Hope Sabbath School and it is nice to know what they are talking about before the program starts.

I think one of the main reasons the Sabbath School lesson was about the Holy Spirit last quarter was to confront the rabble rousers causing such waves within the denomination.  I have to give the GC a big thumbs up on the choice of that subject.  They hit the Trinity again in this weeks lesson on the study of Peter.

Yes, Scripture affirms that God is Trinity.

 

Ellen White and the Pioneers of the SDA however were not, they were explicit about this.

 

James White ( Ellen's husband )
"We invite all to compare THE TESTIMONIES of the Holy Spirit THROUGH Mrs. White with the word of God. And in this we do not invite you to compare them with your creed. That is quite another thing. The TRINITARIAN may compare them with his creed, and because THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, CONDEMN them [ the testimonies of Mrs. White ]. The Adventist Review & Sabbath Herald June 13, 1871

What exactly are "Testimonies"? It's a defined word in Seventh-day Adventism.

Ellen White
Some are ready to inquire: 'Who told Sister White these things?' They have even put the question to me: 'Did anyone tell you these things?' I could answer them: 'Yes; yes, the angel of God has spoken to me.' But what they mean is: 'Have the brethren and sisters been exposing their faults?' For the future, I shall not belittle the testimonies that God has given me, to make explanations to try to satisfy such narrow minds, BUT shall treat all such questions as an insult to the Spirit of God. God has seen fit to thrust me into positions in which He has not placed any other one in our ranks. He has laid upon me burdens of reproof that He has not given to any other one." (Testimonies, vol. 3, pp. 314, 315)

 

Ellen White
In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661)
 

Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 298
We MUST follow the directions given through the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White's writings]. ... God has spoken to us through His Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy

Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 66
If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abirum

 

Ellen White
The testimonies are unread and unappreciated. God has spoken to you. Light has been shining from His word and from the testimonies, and both have been slighted and disregarded. (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 217)

 

As you all know the above isn't exhaustive - it's just representative of the understanding of the VAST majority of SDA's who were alive and rubbed shoulders with Ellen and her "religious contemporaries" - Ellen White's "testimonies" are simply not compatible with the Doctrine of the Trinity.