Robert Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: That is neither stated in the passage. nor supported by the passage, (love your neighbor AS YOURSELF) and in fact is contrary to the teaching of Scripture. There are not two commands here: Love your neighbor and yourself. No...the passage says that you must love your neighbor AS you naturally love yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Quote: Quote: Robert said: He did because anything outside loving your neighbor as one naturally loves himself is coveting. Ed Dickerson said:Sorry, but that's your definition, not the Bible's. In answer you quote Jack Sequeira at length. Funny thing. In that lengthy quote, he never mentions coveting. So thank you. Not only does my point stand, you've reinforced it. You have demonstrated that, not only is it not the Bible's definition, it isn't Jack Sequeira's definition, either. Maybe you should read both more carefully. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Now please tell me what would happen to you IF you followed the following commands: Luke 6:33 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back . 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. We do this. Currently we have three people not members of our family living in our home. One has been there more than a year. Two have been there 6 months. We have shared everything we have, even when it was almost nothing. Quote: 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. I never give or lend expecting to receive anything in return. Occasionally this has led to being taken advantage of, but I see it that True Jesus knows my needs, and thus those who have failed to return what was lent had greater need of it than I. A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Ed Dickerson said: If Christ was addressing coveting He was perfectly capable of saying, "You are coveting." He did because anything outside loving your neighbor as one naturally loves himself is coveting. This is not true. It is emminently possible to love someone less than one's self and not desire anything they possess. Coveting is to desire something so strongly it supplants Abba in your life. Not loving one's neighbor is simply hardness of heart. Further, in your example of the RYR, when he made the statement "all these I have done.", he was lying to himself and His Redeemer. To love one's neighbor as one's self results in providing them the same benefits and good things that are yours. No matter what they might be. The RYR had patently not done this. When our Kinsman Redeemer then gave direction to the RYR He was responding to the specific lie the RYR had just told. Covet does not equate in this discussion. We're talking something much more basic. And it's not selflessness either. We're talking a right relationship with Abba that results in a softened, yielded heart the Holy Spirit can work with and guide into the principles that lead to a good steward of Abba's bounty. Good atheists can be not self-seeking, good Brahmin's can be selfless, great philanthropists, philosophers, and humanitarians of all flavors have sold what they have and given to the poor, even to selflessly giving all they had. Such will not win them the Kingdom of heaven. Jesus was not talking about the RYR's works until the RYR revealed his hardness of heart and lack of relationship with his Creator. The prescription for this terminal heart disease was to sell all the RYR owned and then to come and follow. Just as a treatment for heart disease addressing both the symptom and underlying cause in the physical can vary by patient depending on the root of the problem, so the treatment for spiritual heart disease varies also by spiritual patient depending on the root of the problem. A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: In that lengthy quote, he never mentions coveting. That wasn't my intent.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 Quote: Clio said: Luke 6:33 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back . We do this. Currently we have three people not members of our family living in our home. One has been there more than a year. Two have been there 6 months. We have shared everything we have, even when it was almost nothing. You are not being honest with the context! It doesn't say anything about sharing...it says, "if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back." How long before such selflessness would render you homeless? The fact is you still retain self, even though you are reflecting God's grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Quote: Robert said: There are not two commands here: Love your neighbor and yourself. No...the passage says that you must love your neighbor AS you naturally love yourself. You have added the word 'naturally.' The Bible writer did not use that word, so it would not be accurate to inject that into the verse. Nor does the word "must" appear in the verse. As to the verse itself, let's take a look at it: agapeeseis ton pleesion sou hos seauton [i am using 'ee' for the Greek 'eta'.] Parsing same: agapeeseis verb: 2nd per. sing. fut. act. ind.(volitive) ton article: masc. sing. acc. pleesion adverb sou pronoun: personal, 2nd pers. hos conjunction: subordinating, comparative seauton pronoun: reflexive 2nd pers., masc. sing. acc. Simply, then: You shall love the near [the one who is near] you like as of yourself. This verse neither says nor suggests that you shall give your neighbor everything you have. It says that you shall love your neighbor like you love yourself. Now, Robert, on a TEXTUAL level, will you please explain what you find in THIS verse to support the idea that you shall give your neighbor everything you have? No Sequeira quotes, please. What do you find in this specific verse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: ...will you please explain what you find in THIS verse to support the idea that you shall give your neighbor everything you have? You're not listening! Again, look at the context of Matt 19:16-22 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? What was Christ's answer to the RYR's question? It is two-fold: a] "There is none good but one, that is, God" and b] "but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” There's no one good, but one...that is God, BUT if you desire to enter heaven by being good you must keep the commandments. That's what Christ is telling the man. Apparently he missed out on part "a". 8 “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, ”‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. The context answers the question how should one love his neighbor? Jesus says that if one is to be perfect he must be selfless....He must love his neighbor as he naturally loves himself. IF the man truly loved his neighbor as himself he would have given all his posessions away, but he didn't...why? Self-love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Quote: Robert said: You're not listening! It looks to me like this is going a similar direction as your threads on this issue have in the past--tending towards being argumentative and putting down those who question or differ with your point of view. That statement, 'You're not listening!' is inappropriate and demeaning. If you continue making such comments, you will find yourself carrying on a monologue, at least as far as this poster is concerned. Specifically as to the VERSE referenced above--verse 19, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself,"--what do you find in that verse to support the idea that Christ commands believers generally, to give their neighbor everything they have? Do you find any such support in that verse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Robert said: He did because anything outside loving your neighbor as one naturally loves himself is coveting. Ed Dickerson said:Sorry, but that's your definition, not the Bible's. Ed Dickerson said: In answer you quote Jack Sequeira at length. Funny thing. In that lengthy quote, he never mentions coveting. Robert said: That wasn't my intent.... Wow. So you're admitting your response was irrelevant, and your claim about covetousness lacks support. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Specifically as to the VERSE referenced above--verse 19, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself,"--what do you find in that verse to support the idea that Christ commands believers generally, to give their neighbor everything they have? Do you find any such support in that verse? I've already commented on this....Please re-read it. Thanks, Rob Quote: "My reason for bring up this particular point is not so one will sell all his possessions. My point is normally a response to those who insist we keep certain rules to enter into life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Look at these similarites: Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. [:"red"]“do this, and you will live"[/] Matt 19:16 And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. 21 “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” If you approach God in a legalistic manner then God (in order to break you of your self-righteous attitude) will give you the law as a means of salvation….There are many verses that allude to this truth. I've already given you two! Another is found Matt chapter five where Christ says, …Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. He is not presenting the law in an attempt to teach salvation by works. He is doing it in order to open the eyes’ of the self-righteous that they might realize that “there is none righteous, no, not even one!" That’s why He ended chapter five by stating, You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrell M Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Moses gave over 600 detailed laws, and Jesus layed out broad principles. I see this as one of the principal differences between the Old and the New. Every person, relationship, and situation is so vastly different that Jesus' allowance for customization, as opposed to one-size-fits-all, makes a more universal sense in a broader world than that which Moses addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Quote: Robert said: I've already commented on this....Please re-read it . . . My reason for bring up this particular point is not so one will sell all his possessions. My point is normally a response to those who insist we keep certain rules to enter into life." Thank-you, Robert, for your courteous response. My particular interest at this point, is in understanding what the verse and the passage say. I am starting with the verse--the ordinary meaning of the words used--and from there will go to the passage. Robert, I have re-read your comments on this verse, on this thread. I have also looked at the Greek text. Jesus in this verse simply states that one should love his neighbor in the same way he loves himself. There is nothing in this verse that would suggest a command to give all one's possessions to his or her neighbor. The suggestion that loving one's neighbor means to give him all one's possessions, cannot come from this verse. Does the passage in which this verse is found, support such a teaching? That will be the next level of inquiry. David Koot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Very well. Now, let's take a look at the passage itself: Mt 19:16 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." (NKJV) In this passage, Jesus most definitely calls upon this man to sell what he has. The first question that occurs to me, is in what way this instruction ties in with the rest of the passage. I do not see an expressed tie-in with any of the six things which Jesus mentioned to him. Jesus did not say to him, to show his love for his neighbor by selling what he has. Nor did Jesus say that by selling what he has, he would not be covetous. Nor, for that matter, does Jesus connect his admonition, with any of the other commandments which He mentioned. Thus, to be accurate, we must take it as it reads, standing alone. What was the young man's problem? V. 22 suggests that he was sorrowful because "he had great possessions." This does not suggest covetousness--he is not described as coveting someone else's possessions. Nor does it necessarily indicate that he does not love his neighbor. His own testimony concerning himself, is that he has loved his neighbor. ("Neighbor" perhaps being recognized as the Jews of this young man's station understood the concept)There is no evidence in the passage, to contradict his statement. What, then, WAS the problem? One that jumps off the page at me, is idolatry. Here was the Son of God, recognized by this young man as a teacher of righteousness, calling him to action, inviting to him to be complete (perfect) and giving him specific instruction. BUT HE LOVED HIS POSSESSIONS MORE THAN HE LOVED GOD. Is it possible to have possessions, but not love them more than God or other people? What does the Bible teach about that? David Koot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: What, then, WAS the problem? One that jumps off the page at me, is idolatry. David Koot It jumps off the page because it was never on the page! "Idolatry is not mentioned"! Only the last six commandments dealing with one's neighbor are mentioned. Let's say that he did love his possessions more than God. Why would Christ tell him to sell everything? I mean he needs a roof over his head doesn't he? Why would Christ ask him to be homeless? Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Quote: Robert said: It jumps off the page because it was never on the page! "Idolatry is not mentioned"! Only the last six commandments dealing with one's neighbor are mentioned. We can safely assume that Jesus did not intend to minimize the importance of the first four. And, we can probably say, reasonably, that there was not an issue with killing, stealing, bearing false witness, committing adultery, or dishonoring his parents. Nor was the issue coveting possessions of his neighbor. First of all, he had great possessions. Secondly, Jesus did not tell him that he was covetous. None of these things did Jesus mention as being the RYR's specific problem. Nor, for that matter, did Jesus tell the RYR that he was not in fact loving his neighbor. It is, indeed, possible that the RYR was doing as he represented, to his knowledge. And, it is possible that the 'plague spot' Jesus saw was on a deeper level than the items which He mentioned. One cannot truly love one's neighbor without truly loving God. THAT I would see, as an issue in this story. The passage DOES mention that he loved his possessions. Idolatry goes to the core of love of possessions, more than God OR his neighbor. Quote: Let's say that he did love his possessions more than God. Why would Christ tell him to sell everything? I mean he needs a roof over his head doesn't he? Why would Christ ask him to be homeless? I think your characterization of what would have happened, would require several assumptions to be made. At this point, it may be worthwhile to take a look at this verse, v. 21, as it appears in the original (Nestle-Aland): "hupage pwlhson sou ta huparchonta kai dos tois ptwchois . . ." hupage verb: 2nd p. sing. pres. act. imperative pwhlson verb: 2nd p. sing. pres. act. imperative sou pronoun: personal, 2nd p. ta article: plu., neuter huparchonta verb: pres. act. part., neut. plu. acc. kai: conjunction: coordinating, copulative dos verb: 2nd p. sing. aor. act. imp. [tois] article: masc. plu. dat. ptwchois adjective: masc. plu. dat., no degree or a positive degree Go sell you belonging to you and give [them] to the poor. I note, firstly, the absence of the word 'all.' The text does not say that. One might or might not imply that, but it certainly doesn't appear to this student, as a definite. What was Jesus' stated intent? He invited the man to be His follower, to come follow Him. Jesus had also invited Peter, James, John, Andrew, etc., to leave the nets, leave their occupations and source of income, and follow Him. However, they did not end up homeless or destitute. There is nothing in this passage to indicate that the RYR would have ended up homeless or destitute. David Koot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Quote: Let's say that he did love his possessions more than God. Why would Christ tell him to sell everything? I mean he needs a roof over his head doesn't he? Why would Christ ask him to be homeless? At this point, it may be worthwhile to take a look at this verse, v. 21, as it appears in the original (Nestle-Aland): ...I note, firstly, the absence of the word 'all.' The text does not say that. You will go to great extremes to "re-write" the actual context to your own bias. If the man is making a god of his possessions then he should sell all of them, huh? Simple logic. Quote: There is nothing in this passage to indicate that the RYR would have ended up homeless or destitute. Jesus was homeless....Those who fashion themselves after Him will, in this world, experience poverty. Luke 10:57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” The issue in Matt 19:17-22 is straight forward. Let's go over it again: Q: "What good thing shall I [the RYR] do, that I may have eternal life?" A: "there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." In His answer to the RYR, Christ attempted to correct the RYR's theology by telling him "there is none good, but one - God!" Yet He also gives him the measuring stick for gaining eternal life - the law! "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Why did Jesus leave out "you shall not covet" and in its place say, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself"? Your answers have been unacceptable for they do not fit within the parameters and context of this passage. verse 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” Was the RYR really keeping the law? Apparently not because Jesus said: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor." Coveting is much more than merely lusting after someone's goodies. Coveting is self-seeking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 "If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing." [1 Cor 13:3] If one gives "ALL" his possessions to the poor, but does it for selfish motivations it is worthless. The disciples did this early on: “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” [Matt 19:27] They gave up the little they had to gain golden streets. Hence their love was self-seeking, something Paul denounces in 1 Cor 13:5! Let's read that: "it [love] is not self-seeking" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Jesus was homeless....Those who fashion themselves after Him will, in this world, experience poverty. Hey...Ellen White saw this - why can't you guys? "To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, 'The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' [:"red"]Those who follow him must share his poverty.[/] 'If any man will come after me,' he declares, 'let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. So shall ye be my disciples.'" RH 7-4-1912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: Robert said: You will go to great extremes to "re-write" the actual context to your own bias. Please explain. Quote: If the man is making a god of his possessions then he should sell all of them, huh? Simple logic. Precisely. If someone is making a god of his posssessions, than one option is for him to sell his possessions. Not everyone has that problem. THIS man apparently was making a god of his possessions. Christ's counsel to this man, in his specific situation, was to sell his possessions, whether all or most or part. As for "simple logic," that is not a substitute for what the verse actually says. One cannot add a word to the verse, for the sake of his or her personal views of 'logic.' Quote: Jesus was homeless.... But Jesus' chosen followers were not homeless. Quote: Why did Jesus leave out "you shall not covet" Why did Jesus leave out the first four commandments? Quote: and in its place say, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself"? You have not established that Jesus intended to 'replace' "Thou shalt not covet" here. Jesus DID, in another exchange, quote the book of Exodus to summarize, rather than replace, the last six commandments with, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Quote: Your answers have been unacceptable for they do not fit within the parameters and context of this passage. That is a general statement, an abstraction. Please identify 'the parameters of the passage' and provide textual support for same. As for context, it cannot violate the actual text. Please provide textual support for your statement about context. Quote: Was the RYR really keeping the law? Apparently not because Jesus said: " If you want to be perfect , go, sell your possessions and give to the poor." Indeed, his possessions being more important than God. Quote: Coveting is much more than merely lusting after someone's goodies. Coveting is self-seeking! I believe that all sin, including coveting, is a manifestation of self. The first four commandments pertain to God's place in our lives, the last six, to how we relate to others. David Koot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: he is not described as coveting someone else's possessions. That very limited view of "coveting" Paul tackles in Romans 7:7. Apparently the Apostle Paul had a very different view of "coveting" after he was converted: 7 ...For I [Paul] would not have known what coveting [:"red"]really was[/] if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8 But sin [i.e., "the deceitfulness of sin"], seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment [i.e., in the absence of a greater understanding of the spirit of the law], produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law [i.e., an understanding of the spirit of the law], sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law [i.e., as a Pharisee Paul didn't consider himself a "covetous" man]; but when the commandment came [i.e., a greater understanding of the 10th commandment], sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment [i.e., the 10th] that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin [again, the deceitfulness of sin], seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! [Then why?] But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment [i.e., the 10th] [:"Red"]sin might become utterly sinful.[/] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Quote: Robert said: Quote: If the man is making a god of his possessions then he should sell all of them, huh? Simple logic. Precisely. If someone is making a god of his possessions, than one option is for him to sell his possessions. Not everyone has that problem. Yes...IF one has asked the question, "What good thing must I do to gain heaven." And "yes" your goodies were obtained through self-seeking, so technically you should sell all you have! You loved yourself MORE than your neighbor....Lucky for you that you are not under law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: Robert said: "To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, 'The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' [:"red"]Those who follow him must share his poverty.[/] 'If any man will come after me,' he declares, 'let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. So shall ye be my disciples.'" RH 7-4-1912 Dave, Being an Adventist I am fairly sure you place great emphasis on "The Spirit of Prophecy", right? If so then you can't ignore EGW's statement above. It is clear and to the point. She made this statement 3 years before her death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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