David Koot Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Hey...Ellen White saw this - why can't you guys? Do you feel that Ellen White followed Jesus' counsel which you quoted here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 -BC- COL -TI- Christ's Object Lessons -CN- 28 -CT- The Reward of Grace -PR- 01 -PG- 392 "The lover of self is a transgressor of the law. This Jesus desired to reveal to the young man, and He gave him a test that would make manifest the selfishness of his heart." Ellen states that the RYR's problem was that he loved himself. After trying to merit heaven, Jesus told him to love His neighbor instead. Ellen White, although legalistic at times, saw the issue when she stated, "The lover of self is a transgressor...." Again, the law demands perfect selflessness...no self-seeking...no self-love. Until you accept your utter sinfulness you will never have peace with God through justification by faith. This the SDA church needs to hear desperately! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 19, 2006 Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Quote: Robert said: Hey...Ellen White saw this - why can't you guys? Do you feel that Ellen White followed Jesus' counsel which you quoted here? Doesn't matter....Stay to the topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Quote: You will go to great extremes to "re-write" the actual context to your own bias. ! You have no shame, Robert. OF all the daffy things you have said, that is the funniest. As has been repeatedly pointed out, the advice in this verse was to this particular person. Jesus never said it to Nicodemus, or Zebedee, or Zaccheus, or Matthew. The CONTEXT, which word you apparently have just discovered, is this particular advice to this particular person. Quote: Jesus was homeless....Those who fashion themselves after Him will, in this world, experience poverty. So you declare, over and over. But you're not God. So we'll have to look for some other evidence, and apply your logic. Jesus was. . . homeless (so you say) bearded single a carpenter for 30 years an itinerant preacher able to perform miracles divine. Using your logic, "Jesus was . . .Those who fashion themselves, after His will, in this world, [will be] all the things on the list!" THAT'S YOUR REASONING. So unless you're willing to accept all the others, you'll have to relinquish your claim, based on that statement. Of course, including all those other things is ridiculous, not because they are, but because your original reasoning is ridiculous. It makes no sense, holds no water, id does not follow. Quote: Why did Jesus leave out "you shall not covet" and in its place say, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself"? Your answers have been unacceptable for they do not fit within the parameters and context of this passage. Once again, coming from you, this is hilarious. There is a very good answer to your question, but since it doesn't fit your fanciful interpretation, you'll never even come close to it. Quote: “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” Was the RYR really keeping the law? Apparently not because Jesus said: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor." Unfortunately for your position, the law says nothing about selling your possessions and giving them to the poor. So "apparently" this is in addition to the law, not just another part of it. And just to save you some embarrassment. don't make the specious argument that "selling your possessions...etc." is "loving your neighbor as yourself." It's logically inconsistent, and doesn't work when you actually apply it. Save yourself some grief, don't go there. Quote: Coveting is much more than merely lusting after someone's goodies. Coveting is self-seeking! Yet again, the gospel according to Robert. Only one problem. The church has not ratified you as being inspired. Since you're not inspired, we'll have to stick with the Bible's definition of coveting, rather than yours. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: As has been repeatedly pointed out, the advice in this verse was to this particular person. Jesus never said it to Nicodemus, or Zebedee, or Zaccheus, or Matthew. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, if one comes to God looking for heaven by works He will them the law! Not merely the "letter", but rather the spirit! And BTW, I can’t remember where any of the above men asked Jesus how to obtain heaven through works. So your point is moot! Quote: Unfortunately for your position, the law says nothing about selling your possessions and giving them to the poor. So "apparently" this is in addition to the law, not just another part of it. If you look only at the "letter"! Paul addressed this issue in Romans 7:7-13....Trying reading it again with an open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 I found this about 2 years ago on the internet. The author is unknown, but he has insight: "You are in love with yourself, aren't you? Face it, there is no one on earth more concerned with your happiness or your well-being than you are. There is no one more careful than you to see to it that you are not hungry! No one is more concerned with your rights or your health or your wealth--or your wardrobe for that matter. Our love for ourselves is obvious! It is evident by the fact that we go to whatever lengths necessary to care for our every whim. Jesus says, that is how you must love your neighbor. His concerns are to be your concerns. His burdens are to be your burdens. His problems are to be your problems. His joys are to be your joys. And his needs are to be your needs--your needs to meet. In short, your neighbor's happiness and welfare are to be the object of your ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: And as I have repeatedly pointed out, if one comes to God looking for heaven by works He will them the law! Not merely the "letter", but rather the spirit! Like most of your comments, this one is illogical and irrelevant. You jump from one topic to another without recognizing they are in fact different. Jesus told the RYR to sell his possessions. From this you have made a sweeping declaration that everyone should do that. But he did not mention that to the individuals I pointed out, all of whom were men of considerable means. Jesus did not tell everyone with possessions to seel them all. Thus your sweeping application is in error. Quote: Quote: Unfortunately for your position, the law says nothing about selling your possessions and giving them to the poor. So "apparently" this is in addition to the law, not just another part of it. {/quote] If you look only at the "letter"! Paul addressed this issue in Romans 7:7-13.... Well, this is really marvelous. This is the "free association" method of Bible study. Robert concludes that the RYR was covetous. Nothing in the text says that, but Robert demands we accept his conclusion. Then, based upon that conclusion, he says that Romans 7 is pertinent to this passage. That's called "begging the question." You assume that the text is about coveting-- based on the ABSENCE of that commandment, no less-- and based on that assumption, you tell us Romans 7 is informative. You will note that the only actual link between the RYR and Romans 7 is YOUR ASSUMPTION. Quote: Trying reading it again with an open mind. This is arrogant, rude, and unChristian. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't give you license to be patronizing or condescending. Given the way you impose your preconceptions on every text, you might try taking your own advice. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: David Koot said: Do you feel that Ellen White followed Jesus' counsel which you quoted here? Doesn't matter....Stay to the topic! Actually, the question is right on topic. Firstly, I remind you that we were sticking with the Bible for this discussion--or so I thought. However, since you mention Sr. White, very well, I will respond (without, however, desiring to get into a firefight in which salvos of quotes are hurled back and forth--a traditional Adventist pastime) You quoted a paragraph from Sr. White's writings. The question is, what did she mean? Did she mean that believers today should be homeless, should sell their homes? How would one ascertain the author's intent? I suggest two ways to do so. Firstly, take a look at what she has written elsewhere, about home ownership. Does EGW counsel believers to not own homes or to sell their homes? Actually, she advocates home ownership. I have read that, but am not going to take the time to look it up. Also, she specifically counsels believers NOT to sell their homes prematurely. The time is coming when believers will no longer be able to own property. She does counsel that God will guide believers as to the right time to sell their property, as that time approaches. Secondly, the example of her own life would be very significant in understanding her intended meaning. As God's messenger, it would be important for her to practice what she preached. Having a home is a biggie. If her intent were to advocate NOT having a home, than one could reasonably expect her to follow her own counsel. However, she did in fact both live in and own a home. David Koot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Jesus told the RYR to sell his possessions. Q: Why? A: Because he asked, "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Here's the question that should have been asked: Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” The answer? "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30,31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Secondly, the example of her own life would be very significant in understanding her intended meaning. As God's messenger, it would be important for her to practice what she preached. Having a home is a biggie. If her intent were to advocate NOT having a home, than one could reasonably expect her to follow her own counsel. However, she did in fact both live in and own a home. David Koot Ellen was self-seeking also...as you and I are! Who are you kidding? Romans 3:23 -- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Please remember the Ten Commandments are at best only a brief description of God’s selfless love. Daniel understood this and he realized that he was falling short of loving his neighbor (much less his enemy) as he naturally loved himself…. Remember the law does not give two commandments, that is, love yourself and your neighbor! No, it commands us to love our neighbor in the same way we love ourselves. Are you doing this? No….Neither was Daniel…Let’s read: -BC- DA -TI- The Desire of Ages -CN- 25 -CT- The Call by the Sea -PR- 03 -PG- 246 It was the same presence of divine holiness that had caused the prophet Daniel to fall as one dead before the angel of God. He said, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." So when Isaiah beheld the glory (i.e., His Holiness, goodness) of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts." Dan. 10:8; Isa. 6:5. Humanity, with its weakness and sin, was brought in contrast with the perfection of divinity, and he felt altogether deficient and unholy. -BC- SC -TI- Steps to Christ -CN- 3 -CT- Repentance -PR- 02 -PG- 29 When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory (holiness) surrounding the heavenly messenger (angel) that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate [:"red"]its selfishness, abhor its self-love,[/] and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. -BC- TMK -TI- That I May Know Him -CN- 355 -CT- Robed in His Perfection -PR- 05 -PG- 361 But we shall not boast of our holiness. As we have clearer views of Christ's spotless and infinite purity we shall feel as did Daniel when he beheld the glory of the Lord and said, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption" (Dan. 10:8). We cannot say, "I am sinless" till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus (that’s the aim), the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, complete in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: Here's the question that should have been asked: According to you. So what? You're not God. You keep ignoring the point-by-point refutation of your position. Your position has been exposed as false. You might recover, if and when you address the actual evidence, rather than attempting to impose your will by fiat. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: But we shall not boast of our holiness. As we have clearer views of Christ's spotless and infinite purity we shall feel as did Daniel when he beheld the glory of the Lord and said, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption" (Dan. 10:8). We cannot say, "I am sinless" till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus (that’s the aim), the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, complete in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection All this is fascinating, if irrelevant. No one here is making any claims to righteousness. The only one coming close to boasting about anything is you, with your continued belief that you can twist scripture to mean anything you want. I repeat. You're NOT God. So you'll have to abide by the same rules of logic, exegesis, and yes, courtesy that the rest of us mere humans must adhere to. You have established NO LINK between the RYR and your expansive notions of a) covetousness, and the obligation to poverty. One of the first rules of elementary exposition is to deal with evidence that contradicts, or appears to contradict, your position. Having not done so, your position stands refuted by that evidence. Address the issue of other rich men that Jesus DID NOT ask to sell all their belongings. Maybe then you'll gain some credibility. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 20, 2006 Moderators Share Posted March 20, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Robert said: "To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, 'The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' [:"red"]Those who follow him must share his poverty.[/] 'If any man will come after me,' he declares, 'let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. So shall ye be my disciples.'" RH 7-4-1912 [:"blue"] Let me ask you again, if Jesus expects this from ALL his disciples, how come you haven't become destitute and homeless yet? I waited for your reply to my request for clarification, i.e. will a believer who continue to profess belief in Jesus but continues to fornicate, steal, and covet and bow down to idols remain in assurance of salvation? If your teaching on this is good news, why are reluctant to repeat your answer over & over again? Since you are reluctant to say it, let me answer it for you then based on my understanding of what you said in another thread. Feel free to correct me if I do not state it correctly. [:"blue"] Your position is: that a believer who fornicates, steals, covets, bows down to idols etc. etc. can remain in assurance of salvation as long as he/she continues to profess belief in Jesus and what He did 2 thousand years ago. [/] The fact is, the mystery of lawlessness was predicted by Paul a long time ago. You cloak your doctrine of lawlessness [anomia - condition without law, contempt and violation of law] with your insistence on homelessness and no pillow to lay one's head on as the litmus test for discipleship for those who obey the Lord in love. Not even the Franciscans who renounce property ownership could meet it because they have a monastery to live in and have a bed a pillow to lay their heads on. And because no one could meet your litmus test, you therefore renounce obedience to any law. [:"red"]For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who holding it back steps out of the way. Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use very kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them. So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies." 2 Thes 2:7-10 NLT [/] Gerry [/] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 This is interesting, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 14, 1897, paragraph 7 Article Title: Christian Liberality "Millions of people in our world are making the choice made by the young ruler. They have intelligence, but they cannot decide to be honest stewards of their Lord's goods. Many say, "I will bless and glorify myself; I will be honored as a man above his fellows." Jesus paid the price for their redemption; for their sake he became poor, that they might be rich; and yet, though wholly dependent on him for all their earthly possessions, they refuse to do his will by showing love to their fellow men. They are not willing to relieve the necessities of those around them with the means which the Lord has placed in their hands for this purpose. They refuse to appropriate the Lord's capital for the benefit of others, and hold fast to their possessions. Like the ruler, they refuse the heavenly treasure, and choose that which is agreeable to themselves. By such selfishness they prove themselves unworthy of the eternal riches. They show that they are unfit for a place in the kingdom of God; if they were allowed to enter there, they would, like the great apostate, claim everything as if they had created it, and would spoil heaven by their covetousness." If everyone has to literally give away their possessions in order to be worthy of heaven, wouldn't that be like buying your salvation? Norman The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Ellen was self-seeking also After reading your comment above, I think that, at least as far as my participation in this discussion, there isn't a lot to be accomplished at this point. Therefore, I want to summarize: The initial position statement was the if a person is truly selfless and perfectly follows Jesus' example, s/he will be homeless and destiute. Two Scripture references were presented in support of that position: Christ's statement that He had nowhere to lay His head, and the story of the rich young ruler. These were analyzed in subsequent posts. As for Jesus' situation: 1) Indeed, by His choice, He had no regular home to call His own, and He did not hold down a secular job, once He had begun His full-time ministry. 2) However, Jesus did not teach His disciples that they should be homeless or destitute. 3) Jesus' closest followers were not, in fact, homeless or destitute. Some of them, for example Peter, had families. While Jesus did call them to leave the nets, He supplied their needs from other sources. 4) While Jesus is our example, some things were unique to Jesus. We cannot automatically say that because Jesus did something, we too should do it (for example, stay single, and be itinerant preachers.) Looking at the foregoing facts, there does not appear to be support for the assertion that, by following Jesus' example, all believers in Jesus should be homeless and destitute. As for the rich young ruler: 1) Jesus counseled him to sell his possessions and follow Him. 2) The record does not use the word "all" his possessions, including his home. That may or may not be implied. 3) The RYR refused, because he had great possessions. 4) Jesus did not counsel others to sell their possessions--for example, Zacchaeus, Nicodemus, and others. In view of two facts, Jesus' counsel to the RYR would not seem to be general for all believers: 1) The record seems to indicate that the RYR loved his possessions more than he loved God. That is not true of every believer in Jesus. 2) Jesus did not give similar counsel to others who believed in Him. A few other Bible passages seem to bear on this question: Mt. 5:33--""But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." Mk. 10:28 - 30--"Then Peter began to say to Him, "See, we have left all and followed You." 29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, 30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life." Eph. 4:28--"Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need." As far as Ellen G. White's counsel and example, her counsel to believers is to, if at all possible, acquire their own homes, and to hold down productive jobs. As for those whom God calls to full-time ministry, her counsel is that they should be paid a living wage. Her example, as well, was consistent with her counsel. She and her husband (and later she alone) owned property, and if I remember correctly, both she and her husband were on salary. To this student, it looks like a consistent picture. David Koot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: No one here is making any claims to righteousness. The RYR was: “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: Norman said: They are not willing to relieve the necessities of those around them with the means which the Lord has placed in their hands for this purpose. "To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, 'The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' [:"red"]Those who follow him must share his poverty.[/] 'If any man will come after me,' he declares, 'let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. So shall ye be my disciples.'" RH 7-4-1912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Let me ask you again, if Jesus expects this from ALL his disciples, how come you haven't become destitute and homeless yet? "To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him" If one insists on living Christ's life [i.e., "to follow Him"] then he must live Christ's life of selflessness! I no longer come to Christ with the self-righteous question, "What good thing must I do to gain heaven." Why? Because He, like Israel, will give me the law and say, "This do and you shall live." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: The initial position statement was the if a person is truly selfless and perfectly follows Jesus' example, s/he will be homeless and destitute. Yes...and you haven't disproved my position! Quote: Indeed, by His choice, He had no regular home to call His own Because ownership involves self-seeking! That's why the early church experienced biblical communism. They had ALL things in common. See Acts 2:44,45 and 4:32 Quote: However, Jesus did not teach His disciples that they should be homeless or destitute. Jesus, by His life of selflessness, proved that if you live a godly life you would suffer persecution. He never lived for Himself and since He lived in a world under the principle of "self" He was without. What part of that can't you understand? Quote: While Jesus is our example, some things were unique to Jesus. We cannot automatically say that because Jesus did something, we too should do it (for example, stay single, and be itinerant preachers.) The law requires selfless love - a love that is not self-seeking. Do not make claims to holiness [commandment keeping] or I will insist that you live Christ's life of obedience especially to the spirit of God's law. Admit that you fall short of His love continually, and I will back off. Otherwise I, as will God, insist that you be perfect, just as He is perfect. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: While Jesus is our example, some things were unique to Jesus. We cannot automatically say that because Jesus did something, we too should do it (for example, stay single, and be itinerant preachers.) "To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, 'The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' [:"red"]Those who follow him [insist that they are commandment keepers] must share his poverty.[/] 'If any man will come after me,' he declares, 'let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. So shall ye be my disciples.'" RH 7-4-1912 “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. 1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. John 14:29 for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 1 John 2:16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man [self-seeking], the lust of his eyes [what he sees he wants] and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Quote: Here's the question that should have been asked: According to you. So what? You're not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 “He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly given to the service of others.” [EGW] “The Saviour lived not to please Himself. In His life there was not trace of selfishness. Though in a world that He himself had created, He claimed no part of it as His home. "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests," He said; "but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head." [EGW] “Those who engage to be partakers with Christ, must also be partakers with him of his humiliation and his sufferings.” [EGW] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Yes...and you haven't disproved my position! There is none so blind as he who will not see. Rob, David and Ed have absolutely demolished your position. Take your (self-imposed) blinders off. Graeme Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Quote: Planey said: Quote: Robert said: Yes...and you haven't disproved my position! There is none so blind as he who will not see. Rob, David and Ed have absolutely demolished your position. Take your (self-imposed) blinders off. Graeme Graeme, I don't think he can. I think it might be an eyes to see, ears to hear issue. If it's not, the longer he refuses, the more firmly the blinders will sit over his eyes. It's the only thing I can think of... Pray for him. A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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