Murders depicted in the Bible

January 7, 2017

3 minutes ago, Gail said:

Thanks, I was able to click on the link.

Help me out with something: Who or what was it that killed the Egyptian firstborn? I read the bit about the destroyer on the page you provided the link for but am still a bit unclear.

It was Satan. The plagues in Egypt were not God employing physical force any more than they will be God employing physical force in the seven last plagues. It is always God giving over. Did you download the paper on 1 Cor. 10:10?

January 7, 2017

5 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

One clear Biblical example of the destructive power of God, exercised through His holy angels, appears in the story of Peter versus Herod. The entire story, as told by Mrs. White, is fascinating, and I would highly recommend it to readers here; but, as it is long, I will quote only a small portion from the end of the story.

Yes, friend, it is not as though I have not read and studied. My work is all about this. Did you see my request for a valid hermeneutic on dual modalities of wrath? This is what needs to be addressed and not circular reasoning that just keeps coming back with examples of Biblical language to prove that it means "active wrath." Here is a tract I just wrote, formatted as an article for online reading, that speaks to the issue:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/CGB series_standard layout/%231CGB _Our Unchanging God_Does God Have Two Kinds of Wrath_std layout.docx

Please don't require me to type studies out or cut and paste responses that I have made hundreds of times. Just read this for an initial response. It is only a little over 2000 words.

January 7, 2017

38 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

not all the time

all the time. The heart = self = carnal mind. We must have the mind of Christ. We can never "follow our heart," this is Luciferian spiritualism, found everywhere from Disney movies to vegan mayonnaise jars.

January 7, 2017

25 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

It was Satan. The plagues in Egypt were not God employing physical force any more than they will be God employing physical force in the seven last plagues. It is always God giving over. Did you download the paper on 1 Cor. 10:10?

By God's command in order to glorify His name?

January 7, 2017

6 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Indeed it is. That is why we must adhere in our beliefs to a clear "thus saith the LORD." And the Lord is clear on this point, both in the Bible and in the writings of Mrs. White. You have quoted Mrs. White out of context to make it appear she supported your warm, fuzzy, God-can-do-no-harm doctrine (a false doctrine). God is the King and Ruler of the Universe. He does not look on and watch sin passively, with no power to intervene. God's laws are not so weak and flimsy that they can have no teeth. When His law is a reflection of His character, and the law demands the death of the sinner--folks that's all we need to know. There's a reason the Bible speaks of having a holy fear of Him. But God is wise who anticipated just the sort of errors that you have brought to this forum and has answered them already in the writings of Mrs. White. The truth is in the Bible, of course, but some have so wrested the context of the Bible as to be unable to perceive it from there anymore. The Bible is made to say the opposite of what it actually says. I've heard people make the vain argument that every time the Bible says God did something to kill, to destroy, or to punish, that actually Satan was the agent, and God just "let it happen." Such falsehoods are clearly met with quotes such as the following:

The Certainty of God's Judgments

     God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. . . . {LDE 240.5}
     In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1}
     The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}
     Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}

[See my comment in Green's post as to why I have removed one short sentence, both there and here--Gregory Matthews.]

It isn't about emotion or warm fuzzies. God is love and love is predicated upon the twin principles of freedom of choice and non-coercion. Justice and judgment are not left out of this. Freedom of choice exercised in the wrong direction brings its consequences. God does not stand in the way of it. That is justice. For Him to continually prevent consequences would bring us right back to square one, where we have no free moral agents, only animals that do as they are programmed to do. But there is a problem when God will employ force for punishing free moral agents for making the wrong choice. It makes no sense whatsoever, establishing only a tyranny, not a government based upon free choice and true loyalty and heart appreciation. It is like the doctor who correctly diagnoses his patient with a terminal illness, but then says, "Fear not, for I have developed, at the expense of all that I have, a proprietary remedy, and I offer it to you free of charge." You are so grateful. Until he leans in close and whispers, "But make no mistake about it. Refuse this great gift and I will burn you with fire until dead."

EGW at times speaks in the hard Bible language, even saying that she had made the decision to do just that and if we had a problem with it, must take it up with the Bible. I do not believe that the fire of God that punishes the wicked is an imposition of physical fire, fabricated for the purpose of torture. This is an altogether different fire, and just like the Bible, the SoP includes the minor voice keys by which we shall interpret the major voice of active wrath. Here is how she speaks to the issue of the fire that shall not be quenched:

“We read of CHAINS OF DARKNESS for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the WORM THAT DIETH NOT, and of the FIRE THAT IS NOT QUENCHED. Thus is REPRESENTED the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, HE WILL SEE that sin is the transgression of God's law. HE WILL REALIZE that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. THIS is a fire unquenchable, and BY IT every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course” (ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13).

“Against every evildoer God's law utters CONDEMNATION. He may disregard that voice, he may seek to drown its warning, but in vain. It follows him. It makes itself heard. It destroys his peace. If unheeded, it pursues him to the grave. It bears witness against him at the judgment. A QUENCHLESS FIRE, IT CONSUMES AT LAST SOUL AND BODY” (Ed 144.5).

The fire from God out of heaven

“As the Holy One upon the throne slowly turned the leaves of the ledger, and His eyes rested for a moment upon individuals, His glance seemed to BURN INTO THEIR VERY SOULS, and at the same moment every word and action of their lives passed before their minds as clearly as though traced before their vision in LETTERS OF FIRE. Trembling seized them, and their faces turned pale. Their first appearance when around the throne was that of careless indifference. But how changed their appearance now! The feeling of security is gone, and in its place is a nameless terror. A dread is upon every soul, lest he shall be found among those who are wanting. Every eye is riveted upon the face of the One upon the throne; and as His solemn, searching eye sweeps over that company, there is a quaking of heart; for they are SELF-CONDEMNED without one word being uttered. In ANGUISH OF SOUL each DECLARES HIS OWN GUILT and with terrible vividness sees that by sinning he has thrown away the precious boon of eternal life” (4T 385.2).

I have written a 60-some page study on the fires. Other independent researchers have come to the same conclusions. This is a moving of God, bringing light, as in the Advent Awakening. Give it some serious time and consideration.

God will do what He says He will do. We have misunderstood HOW. Now we now how it works. God is not a torturer, injecting life-giving power to regenerate nerve and tissue so the sufferer can feel it until a predetermined sentence has run its course. This is a Satanic lie. The eternal hell god is the same god as this. The Adventist version is different only in the respect of infinite punishment vs. finite punishment. But the punishment is not of this order.

"It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God. By perverted conceptions of the divine attributes, heathen nations were led to believe human sacrifices necessary to secure the favor of Deity; and horrible cruelties have been perpetrated under the various forms of idolatry. {GC 569.1}
The Roman Catholic Church, uniting the forms of paganism and Christianity, and, like paganism, misrepresenting the character of God, has resorted to practices no less cruel and revolting. In the days of Rome's supremacy there were instruments of torture to compel assent to her doctrines. There was the stake for those who would not concede to her claims. There were massacres on a scale that will never be known until revealed in the judgment. Dignitaries of the church studied, under Satan their master, to invent means to cause the greatest possible torture and not end the life of the victim. In many cases the infernal process was repeated to the utmost limit of human endurance, until nature gave up the struggle, and the sufferer hailed death as a sweet release. {GC 569.2}

January 7, 2017

5 minutes ago, Gail said:

By God's command in order to glorify His name?

God's command in destruction is giving over. It is such as we see when the angels are told to release their hold on the winds of destruction and then the plagues fall, by Satan being given full control over the earth and over the wicked. Do you know how the temple in Jerusalem fell down? Give me the answer from history. I am going somewhere with this.

January 7, 2017

18 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Yes, friend, it is not as though I have not read and studied. My work is all about this. Did you see my request for a valid hermeneutic on dual modalities of wrath? This is what needs to be addressed and not circular reasoning that just keeps coming back with examples of Biblical language to prove that it means "active wrath."

Why do you demand a hermeneutic? Is a "thus saith the LORD" insufficient? Who will say God will not do what He says He will do? I guess you will. God says He will destroy. It is perilous to disbelieve God. Apparently, you believe in a God who inspired erroneous Scriptures--scriptures that lied about His character and made it appear that He will destroy, when in actual fact Satan is the only one who ever destroys--is that right? Believe as you will, friend, God is not mocked--for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

You believe, I suppose, that God never destroys, but that sin does. If that is true, why are we told that Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden, lest they should again eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life and become immortal sinners? If they could have been immortal sinners by continuing to eat of the Tree of Life, it should be clear that sin does not cause death of itself. No, there is a law of God which demands the death of the sinner. And there is a God in Heaven who will enforce His law after all in the universe have come to the point where they understand its fairness. God is a God of love, and in His mercy, He has allowed sin time to demonstrate itself so that all observers would know and understand clearly the distinction between His just laws and the evil of disobeying them (sin).

January 7, 2017

2 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Do you know how the temple in Jerusalem fell down?

Which time? Both times were in accordance with God's will as an expression of His judgments. Both were predicted by Ezekiel's prophecy found in chapter 4.

January 7, 2017

40 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

One clear Biblical example of the destructive power of God, exercised through His holy angels, appears in the story of Peter versus Herod. The entire story, as told by Mrs. White, is fascinating, and I would highly recommend it to readers here; but, as it is long, I will quote only a small portion from the end of the story.

Yes, I understand. The "different stroke" that the angel used to smite Herod was not physical. He "smote" Peter physically--lightly, perhaps with shaking him, or whatever he did to rouse him from slumber, but with Herod he destroyed as God or as angels always destroy, by giving over to outside forces. We have only a partial aetiology, that it was an internal parasitic infection that manifest in an immediate and acute manner. How this happens is not certain. Was it a pre-existing condition that God was holding back, or was it the result of demonic action? It doesn't really matter, because the principle is always the same:

Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs; and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them” (GC 589.2).

Angels "smite" the same way God smites. Here is the principle set forth in the minor voice language, a key that we take and apply consistently to the Bible language:

Isa. 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
Note the Hebrew chiastic structure in this, for it is instructive for us:

A. For the iniquity of his covetousness

B. was I wroth,

C. and smote him:

C'. I hid me,

B'. and was wroth,

A'. and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.

January 7, 2017

4 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Why do you demand a hermeneutic? Is a "thus saith the LORD" insufficient? Who will say God will not do what He says He will do? I guess you will. God says He will destroy. It is perilous to disbelieve God. Apparently, you believe in a God who inspired erroneous Scriptures--scriptures that lied about His character and made it appear that He will destroy, when in actual fact Satan is the only one who ever destroys--is that right? Believe as you will, friend, God is not mocked--for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

You believe, I suppose, that God never destroys, but that sin does. If that is true, why are we told that Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden, lest they should again eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life and become immortal sinners? If they could have been immortal sinners by continuing to eat of the Tree of Life, it should be clear that sin does not cause death of itself. No, there is a law of God which demands the death of the sinner. And there is a God in Heaven who will enforce His law after all in the universe have come to the point where they understand its fairness. God is a God of love, and in His mercy, He has allowed sin time to demonstrate itself so that all observers would know and understand clearly the distinction between His just laws and the evil of disobeying them (sin).

Of course we demand a hermeneutic. The Bible says God does all sorts of things:

Isa. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Ex. 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Prov. 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

2 Sam. 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

We don't just wave these off as Bible language and then change modality in other cases. You have to bring a Bible injunction for doing so. That is all. Then we get into the issues of punishment. What is it for? Tell me, what are the principles involved in punishment. Bring it.

January 7, 2017

9 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Which time? Both times were in accordance with God's will as an expression of His judgments. Both were predicted by Ezekiel's prophecy found in chapter 4.

I am talking specifically about A. D. 70. Talking to Gail on this one, okay?

January 7, 2017

14 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

You believe, I suppose, that God never destroys, but that sin does. If that is true, why are we told that Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden, lest they should again eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life and become immortal sinners? If they could have been immortal sinners by continuing to eat of the Tree of Life, it should be clear that sin does not cause death of itself. No, there is a law of God which demands the death of the sinner. And there is a God in Heaven who will enforce His law after all in the universe have come to the point where they understand its fairness. God is a God of love, and in His mercy, He has allowed sin time to demonstrate itself so that all observers would know and understand clearly the distinction between His just laws and the evil of disobeying them (sin).

Sin is not a physical tangible that looms up to physically mash up or burn the sinner. Sin is a principle. It is the declaration of the free moral agent to go on in life without reference to God, saying it does not need God to live. But nothing could be further from the truth. For God to be ejected is automatic cessation of existence. Mercy interposes for the purpose of reconsideration. But once all the data is in, God says, "is this your final choice?" The answer by the finally impenitent will be "Yes." And they will die. It won't be easy. The process is "fire" to the soul. God's mercy never comes to an end. This is clearly taught. What comes to the end is that the free moral agent wants it no more. The forsaking is never initiated by God.

"A soul whom God had forsaken would never feel as you [FROM A LETTER OF COMFORT TO A TROUBLED HEART] have felt and would never love the truth and salvation as you have loved it. Oh, if God's Spirit ceases to strive with a soul it is left in an indifferent state, and all the time thinks that it is well enough off. . . . You must not gratify the enemy in the least by doubting and casting away your confidence. Said the angel, "God leaves not His people, even if they err. He turns not from them in wrath for any light thing. If they sin they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." {HP 119.2}
This Advocate pleads for sinners and the Father accepts His prayer. He turns not away the request of His beloved Son. He who so loved you as to give His own life for you will not turn you off and forsake you unless you willfully, determinedly forsake Him to serve the world and Satan. Jesus loves to have you come to Him just as you are, hopeless and helpless, and cast yourself upon His all- abundant mercy and believe that He will receive you just as you are. {HP 119.3}
You dwell upon the dark side. You must turn your mind away, and instead of thinking all the time upon the wrath of God, think of His abundant mercy, His willingness to save poor sinners, and then believe He saves you. You must in the name of God break this spell that is upon you. You must cry out, "I will, I do believe!" Jesus retains your name upon His breastplate and pleads for you before His Father, and if your eyes could be opened you would see heavenly angels ministering unto you, hovering about and driving back the evil angels that they should not utterly destroy. . ." (HP 119.4)

“God never forsakes people or individuals until they forsake Him.” (12MR 321.2).

2 Chron. 15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD [is] with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Josh. 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
HOW? Active punishment? Does this make sense? Love me or I'll hurt you? NO! God says clearly how it works:

Deut. 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us?
31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

January 7, 2017

18 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Tell me, what are the principles involved in punishment. Bring it.

I already have: justice and mercy. Those are the two components of love, and not, as you have asserted, "the twin principles of freedom of choice and non-coercion." If you mis-define love in this way, then God is not love, for He has made many living creatures having no freedom of choice. Would that not be a form of "coercion"? In fact, freedom of choice is a separate discussion altogether. God loves even those creations of His which He has not endowed with freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is part of the discussion for how sin arose in the first place. This, perhaps, is what stands back of God's assertion in Isaiah 45:7 that He has created evil--He created it in two ways: 1) by establishing His law which defines clearly what is good and what is evil, and 2) by giving the power of choice to creatures who were then at liberty to choose between them. As for His having created light and darkness, this was a part of His first day's creation in forming this world.

The only reason you demand a hermeneutic is that the Bible does not say what you want it to say. By first contriving to interpret it by your own standards, you can then make it agree with your opinion. I eschew all such semantics. Let the Bible interpret itself, and let none call God a liar.

January 7, 2017

13 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

I already have: justice and mercy. Those are the two components of love, and not, as you have asserted, "the twin principles of freedom of choice and non-coercion." If you mis-define love in this way, then God is not love, for He has made many living creatures having no freedom of choice. Would that not be a form of "coercion"? In fact, freedom of choice is a separate discussion altogether. God loves even those creations of His which He has not endowed with freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is part of the discussion for how sin arose in the first place. This, perhaps, is what stands back of God's assertion in Isaiah 45:7 that He has created evil--He created it in two ways: 1) by establishing His law which defines clearly what is good and what is evil, and 2) by giving the power of choice to creatures who were then at liberty to choose between them. As for His having created light and darkness, this was a part of His first day's creation in forming this world.

The only reason you demand a hermeneutic is that the Bible does not say what you want it to say. By first contriving to interpret it by your own standards, you can then make it agree with your opinion. I eschew all such semantics. Let the Bible interpret itself, and let none call God a liar.

Freedom of choice is not a separate discussion at all. It is the entire discourse, not just how sin arose. God has "created evil" because love must give over to freedom of choice. Your argumentation is another species of sidestepping the real issues, again. What are the principles involved in punishment? There are three, here below. I'll let you name as many of them as you can think of, for sake of discussion and examination of the principles of God's kingdom.

January 7, 2017

19 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

I already have: justice and mercy. Those are the two components of love, and not, as you have asserted, "the twin principles of freedom of choice and non-coercion." If you mis-define love in this way, then God is not love, for He has made many living creatures having no freedom of choice. Would that not be a form of "coercion"? In fact, freedom of choice is a separate discussion altogether. God loves even those creations of His which He has not endowed with freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is part of the discussion for how sin arose in the first place. This, perhaps, is what stands back of God's assertion in Isaiah 45:7 that He has created evil--He created it in two ways: 1) by establishing His law which defines clearly what is good and what is evil, and 2) by giving the power of choice to creatures who were then at liberty to choose between them. As for His having created light and darkness, this was a part of His first day's creation in forming this world.

The only reason you demand a hermeneutic is that the Bible does not say what you want it to say. By first contriving to interpret it by your own standards, you can then make it agree with your opinion. I eschew all such semantics. Let the Bible interpret itself, and let none call God a liar.

Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of goodness, or God.

January 8, 2017

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

The above is not even close to being true. First, I noticed above that you critisized the Church for using bigger bold letters to emphasize something i quoted above, yet, you seem to feel free to do what you have critisized elsewhere.

It is not correct, Biblically, to say that God never destroys/kills, or that His mercy never ends. If this was the case, then in the end of time, the Bible would simply say that Satan killed himself, and then thats how evil would be destroyed forever. But this is not the case. If Satan is the one who does all the killing and destroying, then the Bible would read as such:

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the [Satan] was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil/himself.

This would have some obvious problems. How could Satan kill himself?

Thats why the Bible says it like this:

1Jn_3:8 He that comitteth sin of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil

God’s mercy does indeed come to an end here. There is no other way to say it.

It does not denigrate God’s character in any way to point out, as does the Bible, how that there is a time when mercy ends, and justice takes place. Saying that God’s mercy never ends, is like saying there is no need for “Christ and Him crucified,” and any doctrine which denigrates the need for the cross, is not “Christian.” Your criticism of "the remnant" in one isolated, out of context sentence has revealed your intentions.

"Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. HERE is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness" (CTr 247.2).

You say this isn't even close to being true. I say it is true. So we will have to disagree on that. The destroyer is always Satan, directly or indirectly.

(As to the matter of you picking at nits about font size and emphases, I am confirmed that the spirit entered into here is one of recalcitrance and unwillingness to consider another point of view and as such, our conversation will likely end very quickly. Are you an elder or a pastor? You seem to have that air about you.)

It is absolutely correct to say that God never destroys/kills except in the same way the Bible says it--by Divine Recession (DR), or "hiding of His face." Of course Satan does destroy himself. In the end he, and all who have followed him will be seen to have done exactly that, after the manner as depicted in the explanation of the symbolism of the quenchless fire given in inspiration:

“Against every evildoer God's law utters CONDEMNATION. He may disregard that voice, he may seek to drown its warning, but in vain. It follows him. It makes itself heard. It destroys his peace. If unheeded, it pursues him to the grave. It bears witness against him at the judgment. A QUENCHLESS FIRE, IT CONSUMES AT LAST SOUL AND BODY” (Ed 144.5).

This death is not from God torturing him with physical fire. This is a different fire. Besides, physical fire has no effect on spirit beings. When the Lord Jesus is lifted up in the coronation at the GWT judgment scene, there comes a scene in which each one reviews his own life in the salvation story, the great controversy story. This plays out in the sky in that "panoramic view" (GC 666). It is as fire to the psyche:

“As the Holy One upon the throne slowly turned the leaves of the ledger, and His eyes rested for a moment upon individuals, His glance seemed to BURN INTO THEIR VERY SOULS, and at the same moment every word and action of their lives passed before their minds as clearly as though traced before their vision in LETTERS OF FIRE. Trembling seized them, and their faces turned pale. Their first appearance when around the throne was that of careless indifference. But how changed their appearance now! The feeling of security is gone, and in its place is a nameless terror. A dread is upon every soul, lest he shall be found among those who are wanting. Every eye is riveted upon the face of the One upon the throne; and as His solemn, searching eye sweeps over that company, there is a quaking of heart; for they are SELF-CONDEMNED without one word being uttered. In ANGUISH OF SOUL each DECLARES HIS OWN GUILT and with terrible vividness sees that by sinning he has thrown away the precious boon of eternal life” (4T 385.2).

The Bible says it this way:

Isa. 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you.
33:12 And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
33:13 Hear, ye [that are] far off, what I have done; and, ye [that are] near, acknowledge my might.
33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.
33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

In v. 11 this "conception of chaff" where the wicked is consumed by his own breath is the processing of the burden of guilt. This word for "breath" refers to the person's own psyche.

This idea about God torturing sinners at the end is a crude, dark and barbaric misrepresentation of our God, after the manner of heathen ideas about Deity. The ancients were steeped in this type of thinking, wherein all things, good and evil, came from God. It comes through in the Bible language, also coupled with the Hebraic idiom or manner of thought and speech wherein if a person (or god) had power to stop an evil and did not, then he was actually DOING that evil:

“It was a maxim among the Jews that a failure to do good, when one had opportunity, was to do evil; to neglect to save life was to kill” (DA 286.2).

Satan has hid behind the Bible language, but the jig is up. The light on how to read it has come and people are seeing it. I believe it is actually a test to everyone who claims to be a follower of God, in that it will reveal what God they want.

"Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control" (GC 35.3).

Note that the Jews' sufferings are "often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God." This is so interesting. Represented where? In the Bible of course. And this is where the devil works to conceal the truth. He has been able to make great capital of the Bible language, because people aren't willing to slow down and figure this out. They are simply attributing to God the same characteristics as are inherent in human systems of law and punishment. Attribution is Satan's game. He paints God up as one like himself and man paints God up as being like us. But remember, as James says, "The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" (1:20). The principles inherent in human punishment are:

1. restitution

2. vengeance

3. deterrence

An examination of this matter is in order. How do those things figure in God's character and government? The Bible will guide us, if we let it. Christ will guide us.

God's mercy comes to an end even though the Bible says over 40 times that it doesn't! How is that? Human choice forces it! This is what it is always about. Choice. When human cup of iniquity is full, God gives over to choice. He doesn't roll up His sleeves and give a big spanking, He lets the sinner over to outside forces of human wickedness, demonic control, and natural chaos. Always. It is a consistent principle. That is why we are calling this the "consistent view" of God's wrath. There are three views in Adventism today, per the graphic on my response.

God destroys the works of the devil, no doubt. Why must we read that He comes in with the power of MIGHT (force) to do this? No, He comes with the power of RIGHT (love). God destroys the works of the devil in the same way that turning on a light destroys the darkness. The devil's lies are dispelled. This is what I am doing in the message on God's consistent and unvarying character.

Mal. 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hos. 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help.
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rev. 18:24 And in her [the beast power] was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of ALL that were slain upon the earth.

Every calamity and every death comes from the side of evil

“When will men learn that God is God, not man, and that He does not change? EVERY calamity, EVERY death, is a witness to the POWER OF EVIL and to the truth of the living God. The Word of God is life, and it will abide forever. Through all eternity it will stand fast. How can man, knowing what God is and what He has done, choose Satan's way instead of God's way? There is only one path to Paradise restored,--the path of obedience” (ST, January 25, 1910 par. 18).

January 8, 2017

If I was to believe in this saccharin-sweet God that some are proffering here, I'd turn around and go back from whence I came. I've no use for any god who doesn't have the power to destroy when necessary.

"Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

"divine recession" is a passive construct. God is active, not passive. He may "hide" His face, but it doesn't necessarily follow that He does nothing else to mete out His will.

(and that's the end of my contribution to this thread)

January 8, 2017

Kevin Straub: The Maxwellian view depends of if you actually follow what Graham Maxwell and other of that view actually taught, or if you believe the lies that his enemies made up about him and sadly a number of people who likes what he says have included the lies as well.

The true Maxwellian view is Active/Passive both pre and post millennial. God's wrath is always a oneness of active and passive and it is in a special way at the end of the wicked. I've written on it here many times. I wish you would read those posts so that your comments can show a better understanding of the topic.

January 8, 2017

22 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

If I was to believe in this saccharin-sweet God that some are proffering here, I'd turn around and go back from whence I came. I've no use for any god who doesn't have the power to destroy when necessary.

"Avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

"divine recession" is a passive construct. God is active, not passive. He may "hide" His face, but it doesn't necessarily follow that He does nothing else to mete out His will.

(and that's the end of my contribution to this thread)

It is good for you not to contribute if you have nothing to say about how God repays, skewing this to mean that He repays with the same kind of eye-for-eye type of penal modalities that are inherent in carnal systems. Which, by the way, Jesus soundly, clearly, point-blank REPUDIATED! I will continue the thought regarding God's vengeance, from the Bible, if that's okay.

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

So, the way God takes vengeance is to put fire on their heads, just like the Bible says. The Bible also defines what that fire is. I just quoted it. In the final fires, He shows them all His goodness and they see how they have rejected it and they will show that they intend continue in their decision to reject it. Therefore they reject life and God withdraws from them completely.

When the disciples wanted God to rain down physical fire Jesus was disgusted by the concept:

"Coming to Christ, they reported to Him the words of the people, telling Him that they had even refused to give Him a night's lodging. They thought that a grievous wrong had been done Him, and seeing Mount Carmel in the distance, where Elijah had slain the false prophets, they said, 'Wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?' They were surprised to see that JESUS WAS PAINED BY THEIR WORDS, and still more surprised as His rebuke fell upon their ears, 'Ye know not WHAT MANNER OF SPIRIT ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.' And He WENT TO ANOTHER VILLAGE" (DA 487.2).

See that Jesus actually told them that this was Satan's way, not God's way. Jesus said if you want to be perfect like God is perfect then this is what you do:

Matt. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven...

5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you don't like this God you are already back from whence you came.

January 8, 2017

4 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Kevin Straub: The Maxwellian view depends of if you actually follow what Graham Maxwell and other of that view actually taught, or if you believe the lies that his enemies made up about him and sadly a number of people who likes what he says have included the lies as well.

The true Maxwellian view is Active/Passive both pre and post millennial. God's wrath is always a oneness of active and passive and it is in a special way at the end of the wicked. I've written on it here many times. I wish you would read those posts so that your comments can show a better understanding of the topic.

I've read Maxwell and this is what I have seen. I have listened to others who have carried on in that tradition, such as Tim Jennings, Ty Gibson, Brad Cole, and others and this is the view they hold as well. Brad Cole seems to be shifting, though. Another that has shifted is Dr. Jean Sheldon of PUC, who got her instruction from Maxwell.

If you have a document prepared to show this special melding of active and passive wrath, please send it to straub AT direct DOT ca. Thanks.

January 8, 2017

20 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

If you don't like this God [Kevin's god] you are already back from whence you came.

that's quite a pronouncement...

**back to topic**

January 8, 2017

2 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

that's quite a pronouncement...

**back to topic**

Kevin's God is Jesus' God. Did you miss that part?

January 8, 2017

"THE SAME DESTRUCTIVE POWER EXERCISED BY HOLY ANGELS WHEN GOD COMMANDS"

No amount of circumlocution can change the meaning of this simple declarative clause: Destructive power exercised by holy angels.

To claim that this means something else entirely is simply sophistry.

January 8, 2017

1 hour ago, there buster said:

"THE SAME DESTRUCTIVE POWER EXERCISED BY HOLY ANGELS WHEN GOD COMMANDS"

No amount of circumlocution can change the meaning of this simple declarative clause: Destructive power exercised by holy angels.

To claim that this means something else entirely is simply sophistry.

Well, again I am sorry, but the character of God does not get sullied by one quote. This little gem which every proponent of the standard view of a torturing God uses to say what they think it says actually says the opposite. For the principle of wrath is that God stands aside when He is rejected and those same orders go out to holy angels. Their role is not to destroy but to hold back the winds of destruction.

“Angels are sent from the heavenly courts, not to destroy, but to watch over and guard imperiled souls, to save the lost, to bring the straying ones back to the fold. ‘I came not to condemn, but to save,’ Christ declared” (RH, May 10, 1906 par. 15).

So it is that when the command goes out that "Ephraim" is joined to his idols, and to give him over, that the principle of Deut. 31:16-18 kicks in.

This passage needs to be carefully studied in its context, for it is actually saying that it is the "SAME DESTRUCTIVE POWER" that is exercised. The power is that of the evil angels. They are the ones that do the work and the holy angels let them. This is how their power is exercised by holy angels. It is again, Biblical language, which the SoP uses unabashedly and by stated intent:

"More and more I shall present the message to the people in Scripture language. Then if exception be taken by anyone, his contention must be with the Bible" (Lt244-1906).

The fact of the matter is that this entire context is all about the power of God's angels to restrain and there is a comparison drawn between the power of a single angel to hold back all of that destruction that came upon the firstborn in Egypt (which was Satan, the destroyer) and in the case of the pestilence that went out in punishment of David's sin which, again, would be the exercise of evil. For "every calamity" and "every death" attests only to "the power of evil" and that the "word of God is life" (ST, Jan. 25, 1910, par. 18), so when the word of God is no longer in place to restrain the powers, they will do their work of destruction. While "a single angel" has released such power of demonic force, the contrast is drawn to what shall happen at the end of the world when four angels let go of the winds. Ellen White's discussion here is embedded in a view to what happens at the time of the plagues, when wicked angels have full control, with a comparison being drawn from what happened in the destruction of Jerusalem, again, when Satan had control. The context has nothing to do with holy angels exercising their own physical force, not at all. The entire thing is about what happens when holy angels are out of the picture!

GC 614.1-4, “A Single Angel”

“When he leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected his mercy, despised his love, and trampled upon his law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

“A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.

“Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution.

“When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son, and seeking to slay his ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced, and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the Satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God” (GC88 614).

Please download and study this article on the subject:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/The Same Destructive Power_GC 614.2.docx

A Bible student in Ghana just released a study on this passage, as well, most instructive. You can see it here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DiscoveringTruthAboutGod/permalink/1367895973228662/

January 8, 2017

No amount of verbiage can change the plain meaning of "Destructive power exercised by holy angels." and "at God's command," to boot. That it "sullies God's name" is your conclusion, but unless you claim to be inspired, that conclusion is no stronger than the reasoning behind it.

You mix emotional language and your own conclusions with various quotes, but the links are weak or non-existant.

Here's an interesting passage:

Rev. 19: 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. ¹²His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had^[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. ¹³He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. ¹⁴And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,^[f] followed Him on white horses. ¹⁵Now out of His mouth goes a sharp^[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

By your reasoning, "makes war," "strike the nations," and "treads the winepress," all become passive rather than active--which makes nonsense out of the entire passage. If the author--who was inspired, by the way--wanted to indicate divine inactivity, he managed to conceal it well.

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