If I could ask one thing of the General Conference President

[Stan]

(Please do NOT bring up the Fundamental beliefs)

IT WOULD BE THIS... (add your own)

[Clio]

Why has the Seventh-day Adventist church compromised ecumenically and financially with the Catholic church?

ie: The hospital partnership in Denver and the ANN report of February 15, 2000 which says in part:

"The statement recognizes that though the Churches can refer to similarities, they also see difference between each other's 'doctrine, practice and church policies.'" However, both sides affirm a need to cultivate respect for each other and learn to understand each other. The dialogue was "conducted on the basis of partnership, care to uphold a full identity of both sides, as well as their autonomy and independence, in the spirit of mutual respect and Christian love, and in recognition of the ideals of tolerance and religious freedom."

"Many of us can recall how we have been labeled with different names. We have been misunderstood and often ridiculed. As for us, we wanted to sit down together and recognize that Christian love requires a different kind of relation in the society we are a part of. As Seventh-day Adventists we seek to take a positive approach to other faiths [Roman Catholic]. We have stated this publicly and this document affirms our attitude," he added.

"Over the years, however, as the exchange of information between us took place, we noted many confessional similarities but also differences. The Catholic side recognizes in the document the Christocentric character of our beliefs, and especially our belief in the Trinity, as well as ecclesiological identity of the Church, a status affirmed by an act of the Polish Parliament. On our part, we spoke of a need to change attitudes toward our denomination and recognized the openness of the Catholic Church, especially in recent times, toward the Bible," Lyko explained.

Quotes from the ANN News Article February 15, 2000.

Mrs. White makes the following comments:

"Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today," Ellen White continued. "The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves." (ibid., The Great Controversy, page 571).

"The papacy that Protestants [Adventists] are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation," Ellen White stated, "when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity." (ibid., The Great Controversy, page 571).

"She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God," Ellen White concluded. . .

"Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High." (ibid., The Great Controversy, page 571).

[Gregory Matthews]

Clio:

It is very easy to speak in generalities. It is often harder to be specific.

This is a business relationship between to health-care organizations, both of which have kept their identity, and thier health-care practices.

Can you give one specific example in which we have compromised our health-care standards?

As a point of interest, the Catholics were just as afraind of us as we were of them. Both of us were afraind of the other.

[Clio]

FWIW, I'm not afraid of Catholics. Fear does not prompt my question.

Stan asked for questions. I gave one.

I asked a question and gave my reasons, from the SOP, as to why I believe any compromise or financial agreement with Rome is wrong. I'm not interested in your response, I already know what it is. We've had this discussion before; last year.

I'm interested in the OFFICIAL church position. And the OFFICIAL church position shouldn't have anything to do with health care standards. It should have to do with spiritual care standards. And these two examples cited are only two examples. There are others.

In a war, you don't cozy up to the enemy.

What I choose to do following the official response will depend on the response.

[Gregory Matthews]

Clio:

I understand that you may not be interested in my response.

My point is to others reading this: I do not believe that you can list one instance where spiritual standards have been affected by this business relationship.

You are clearly entitled to your opinion.

But, when you speak on this subject in generalities, and fail to give one instance of the compromise of spiritual standards, I will point it out.

As to fear: The Roman Catholics, as you probably know, as it has been published, were quite concerned that their spiritual standards would be compromised by joining with us, just as we were afraid that ours would be compromised.

Out of that fear came liberty for each to maintain their own distinct spiritual standards.

It does not compromise either of us to have a working business relationship in which supplies are centrally purchased by one for the use of both. That relationship which saves money, does not compromise spiritual standards.

As you likely know, there are many other areas of cooperation in which spiritual care is not compromised by either. The Roman Catholic institutions remain Roman Catholic in regard to the provision of medical care, and are known in the community as Roman Catholic institutions. So, also do the SDA institutions, which are known in the community as SDA institutions.

I live here. I meet patients in the Federal hospital where I work, and meet patients transfered to this hospital from one of the others. Those patients generally know that the hospital from which they came was either Roman Catholic, or Seventh-day Adventist.

The two groups of hospitals have maintained their spiritual identity.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity again to tell people this fact.

Of course, if you ever get the opportunity, you can ask the GC President any question that you wish.

[Clio]

Oh I will.

There are certain areas where compromise is not possible. Spiritual health is one of them.

To have relationships with individual catholic lay-people is one thing. To enter into formal agreements with the RCC and their institutions is quite another. No matter how little "harm" may have resulted from a human perspective.

Now is not the time to be cozying up to the "official" RCC. Business as usual is no longer usual.

[Gregory Matthews]

My point is that spirituality was not compromised.

[Clio]

I disagree. Again.

We're right back where we were a year ago.

We're never going to persuade each other. I responded here because I thought this to be a legitimate thread, and the question might actually get posed. I didn't expect to have to have this same discussion with you to wind up back at the same place we got to last year.

Granted in fewer posts. But I guess practice would make one more efficient at it.

May we please just agree to disagree?

[olger]

Thanks for your question Clio. I won't reject you for it.

My question would be "Is God more interested in numbering Israel, or weighing them?"

I have asked a couple of questions to Bob Folkenberg. Together we agreed that it was lunch time.

gcw

[Morning Glory]

Hi Clio,

I work in the Centura system and have some very strong feelings about this whole topic. I am not sure that I should put them "out there" for anyone to see, so I am going to PM you.

MG

[Clio]

Quote:

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olger said:

Thanks for your question Clio. I won't reject you for it.

My question would be "Is God more interested in numbering Israel, or weighing them?"

I have asked a couple of questions to Bob Folkenberg. Together we agreed that it was lunch time.

gcw

---

Won't reject me for it?

I like your question olger. Although why you would ask that of the GC President, I am uncertain? It would seem that the Bible would be the source for that answer.

Sometimes in asking questions, the best one can do is agree that lunch is a good thing, and as an aid to digestion, other topics should be discussed... from purely a health perspective, of course.

But to your poser... I think that Abba has always been more interested in quality than quantity, although I'm certain that He greatly desires quantities of quality! So high numbers of weighty Israelites? From a spiritual perspective of course!

[olger]

Hi Clio. I think your question for the GC president was a valid one. That's what I meant by not "rejecting" it.

You are correct, the Bible is the source for that answer, and I would only ask it of another man to stimulate some thinking in that area. The Bible repeatedly demonstrates the priority of heaven as the character of its people, not the number of them. The GC would do well to emphasize this aspect over any numerical inflation--in preparation for the Lord's return.

In His love,

gcw

[Ron Griffith]

I would ask something similar to Clio -

"There has been some discussion about the compensation for the leadership of some Adventist Healthcare Institutions. There is also concern about the practices and ethics of how we conduct our business. For example the case of the Adventist family with the child in Florida as reference in the Washington Post story from about a year ago called Forcing a Look at a Hospital's Mission and recently spotlighted in 60 Minutes in a segment called Is the Price Right? on March 5, 2006 .

Does this concern you? What are you willing to do to address these concerns? Why are we paying such outrageous compensation as a non-profit? Do you truely believe that the only way to attract qualified personnel is to pay them millions? How can we stay true to our mission when this becomes the prime motivation for leadership? How do we evaluate the success of our health outreach mission? Why is it so hard to attract and keep qualified SDA healthcare workers in our hospital? If employee and community surveys were done right now at our North American hospitals what would we be known for? How can we stay true to our mission when most of the employees at our hospitals are non-adventist and not even practicing Christians who do not care about the church's mission?

Do we need to do something different if we can't staff our hospitals with those who share our mission? Who maintains the hospitals vision and mission efforts? What makes our hospitals different from any other non-profit or business?

What would Jesus do or say about the current state of Adventist healthcare? The model that He lived does not reflect what we are doing. Are you willing to champion reform?"

And that's the short version -

[Morning Glory]

Re: "Why is it so hard to attract and keep qualified SDA healthcare workers in our hospitals.."

I would add to that, "Why does our healthcare system have such a hard time with retention of ANY employees? Does anyone pay attention to the bleeding of employees....ANY QUALIFIED employees??? out the door after a short time of employment? Does Upper Management pay attention to Managers whose employees leave regularly?? And, why not? IMO it is disgraceful that retention is not a top priority. It is embarrassing to be part of this system who does not treat employees in such a manner that they can hardly WAIT to leave.

I have personally been treated fairly by Adventist HealthCare System. But, I do know many who have not.

Told you I have very strong feelings on this subject.

[SandyColorado]

Quote:

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Clio said:

Oh I will.

There are certain areas where compromise is not possible. Spiritual health is one of them.

To have relationships with individual catholic lay-people is one thing. To enter into formal agreements with the RCC and their institutions is quite another. No matter how little "harm" may have resulted from a human perspective.

Now is not the time to be cozying up to the "official" RCC. Business as usual is no longer usual.

---

I happen to think that this question is quite interesting. We have a Catholic hospital in the town that I live in - and one day I was walking down the hall of this hospital - and saw a bulletin board advertising their new menu in the cafeteria. The interesting part was This is being tested by our "Sister Hospital, Porter Hospital in Denver."

I haven't worked for St. Porter's in years, but was sure glad that I was able to get out before the "merger."