Illegal Immigration=Colonisation in reverse

[lazarus]

There is a jamaican poet Louise Bennett who has a poem called "colonisation in reverese" It celebrates the arrival of Jamaican immigrants to the UK in the 1950. They had come to the "mother-land" to recover what had been taken from them during colonisation.

Isn't the South American wave of Immigration illegal or otherwise just the same. Colonisation in reverse. Of course the USA was not a colonial power in normal sense of the word but perhaps its economic and political policies have bought us to this place.

It would be impossible to send back 10 million people. They are here to stay and the USA has been changed forever. Give them all an opportunity to become citizens and move on!

[Dr. Shane]

I disagree with giving lawbreakers rewards for breaking the law. I agree with granting them a work visa for three years after they have passed a criminal background check in their own country and a health screening. After the three years the go back home and can reapply for another work visa in the future. If they do not return, they get deported when they are caught and are never allowed to enter the US again.

Where I live the population is 87% hispanic. The Mexican border is 12 miles south of my house. A local poll of the english-speaking population here showed that 82% do not favor allowing illegal aliens to stay here. Most immergrants that have come here legally are strongly against allowiing illegals to stay.

In Texas there is a town that grew from 1,000 to 10,000 in ten years due to immergration. That is too fast to build schools, expand the power grid, build water treatment plants, fire departments, etc. The US must control the flow of immergration or such problems as uncontrolled growth will become much more widespread.

Illegal immergration is especially disturbing. Many illegal immegrants do not know how to drive and cause deadly car accidents. Many come here with TB and other infectous diseases. Our prisons are filled with illegal aliens because the criminal element is more likely to cross illegally.

[bevin]

Interesting concept - and somewhat true!

One of the immoral aspects of American mythology is the idea that we are special. e.g. It was moral for us to use force to take our land from its previous owners, but immoral for Japan and Iraq...

Yes, illegal immigration can be seen as just a continuation of being pilgrim fathers. After all, look at all the diseases the Europeans bought here...

/Bevin

[Robert]

Illegals are allowed to break the law because "the rich" lobby Washington to get richer. Laws are simply not enforced.

Since they are illegal labor laws have very little say-so. That means big money for a lot of rich folks.

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

Bringing up the indian wars isn't helpful. Two wrongs doesn't make a right... But two Wrights make an airplace.

[Dr. Shane]

A worker visa program would still provide employers with cheap labor while allowing the US to screen those coming in.

[Derrell M]

If your grandfather robbed my grandfather's house fifty years ago, will you stand down and let me rob your house tonight because it is just "reverse robbery?"

If my grandfather robbed the Smiths fifty years ago, and the Smith's grandson comes over to rob my house tonight, should I say, "Its just reverse robbery" and let him complete the job?

A few centuries ago, the English invaded Scotland and robbed my ancestors of much of their property. If the Scottish people go to England and commit "reverse robbery" against the English people, do you suppose the English just lie down and take it as morally or legally justified?

Absolutely not!

[Derrell M]

Also, the USA had nothing to do with the Spaniard and Potuguese invasions of Central and South America, they did it without our help. Furthermore, Our land was never a part of their land, so the idea that there is some form of reverse colonization has absolutely no merit whatsoever. That would only have meaning if they were invading Spain and Portugal.

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

Where I live the population is 87% hispanic.

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Clearly the process is well underway. It is simply a fact that large sections of America have been turned "brown". This is irreversible.

There is a group that has as its stated aim to get back the territory they believe that the US has taken from Mexico. They think this can be done by immigration. I can't remember the name, perhaps someone else does.

The average South American Illegal immigrant may not have such a political motivation. He simply just wants to have more money etc.

I see it as an example of reaping what you sow. The seeds were sown hundreds of years ago. And the harvest is being reaped today!

Europeans came,

1. flouted the laws and traditions of the indigenous peoples.

2. didn't learn the language.

3. bought diseases.

4. areas that once had 1000 inhabitants very quickly had 10,000 inhabitants.

5. the people who occupied the land resented the presence of the new arrivals. I guess if a poll had been taken the numbers would be similar.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a

man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Galatians 6:7 KJV)

"According to their way I will do to them, and according to

their own judgments I will judge them; and they shall know

that I am the LORD." (Ezekiel 7:27b RSV)

"For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the

whirlwind:" (Hosea 8:7a KJV)

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword."

(Revelation 13:10a,b KJV)

Its funny how life is...

[bonnie]

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lazarus said:

I see it as an example of reaping what you sow. The seeds were sown hundreds of years ago. And the harvest is being reaped today!

Europeans came,

1. flouted the laws and traditions of the indigenous peoples.

2. didn't learn the language.

3. bought diseases.

4. areas that once had 1000 inhabitants very quickly had 10,000 inhabitants.

5. the people who occupied the land resented the presence of the new arrivals. I guess if a poll had been taken the numbers would be similar.

Its funny how life is...

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It is funny how life is. Perhaps like Friend, those who stole the land,wealth,and home of my ancestors in Scotland would be willing to return just a small portion to it's rightful owners. Taken by force with much injury and death.

Revisionist history is always so interesting. If I remember my history lessons from high school what is now the US was hardly this utopian paradise. Strange isn't it, one tribe took from another, lands, wealth, even taking captives, many children and women.

Ever read the kind, gentle,and peacful lifestyle of the Aztecs? I would have to check back, but seems to me they made slaves out of other Indians they captured. The Spainards weren't so warm and fuzzy either, but maybe the Aztecs were only reaping what they had sown.

The Blackfeet were not the picture of pacifism either if I remember right. They were constantly at war with other tribes. What they wanted they took by force. The Souix and the Crow,and many other tribes did the same. Took what they wanted by force. What they didn't want they killed. Indian fighting Indian, stealing, raping, murder and plunder.

In this utopian paradise, pre-white man, they did not buy, ask politely or peacefully co-exist. If a Indian tribe wanted what another had, he took it by force. Land,wealth, women, children.

Maybe they to were only reaping what they had sown.

[cricket]

Are people of mexican descent Native American? I am confused by the analogy of "reverse colonisation".

Maybe I am extremely ignorant, but I thought that Mexicans were brought to South America from Spain. Reverse colonisation then, would be immigration to Spain, would it not?

[Neil D]

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If your grandfather robbed my grandfather's house fifty years ago, will you stand down and let me rob your house tonight because it is just "reverse robbery?"

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Forgive me for point this out...but just WHO is getting robbed in regards to the immigration problem?

These are people who saw an oppertunity and took it...

Think about this for a second...They took jobs that YOU all did not want, couldn't get your hands dirty [after all, you got trained to do something better, like archecture, or medicine or manage your own store or something] and you couldn't let YOUR CHILDREN get thier hands dirty either [after all, they are YOUR children, and by the good Lord, you will just be a monkey's uncle if YOUR child had to work in the hot sun all day for a measlely amount of money!].... Amd you had the good sense to not petrol the border so that you could let others in who would do the work...

And now they are the ones who bring you that food that you buy at inflated prices at Safeway, Kroger, Alberstson, Fred Meyer and you say that YOU WERE ROBBED??????

I am sorry, but I tend to be a bit more forgiving....

[Derrell M]

No, Lazarus' grandparents never robbed my grandparents, there were no Smiths, and I have no intention of invading England. So no, I was not robbed. I was making a point.

I agree with you Neil. What you say makes sense. What doesn't make any sense at all is painting this "reverse colonisation" picture.

I grew up a couple thousand miles south of Shane's home (which is 12 miles from the Mexican border) and didn't move to the USA until I was a teenager, so I do have a pretty accurate picture of the economic situation down there, as opposed to ours here in the USA.

I'm just saying that if one is going to be giving reasons and excuses for something, at least try to make them somewhat realistic, like you did. The arguments you make are compelling reasons that have an immediate impact on our economy.

To justify illegal activity as moral/legal payback for something that happened centuries ago, is irresponsible and dangerous. If we were to allow one instance of that, where would the line be drawn once the precedent is set? That would define the beginning of anarchy.

[Dr. Shane]

We need immergrants to provide cheap labor. No doubt about that. We always have. America was built by immergrants. The current issue is illegal immergrants - not our need for immergrant labor.

If we seal up our boarders we can start a guest-worker program that will provide the labor for the jobs Americans do not want. It will also allow us to keep the criminal and diseased elements out while not allowing communities to be over-run by uncontrolable growth.

[CyberGuy]

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Yes, illegal immigration can be seen as just a continuation of being pilgrim fathers. After all, look at all the diseases the Europeans bought here...

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Yes that is true but did you know that Columbus and his men brought back Syphilis that deadly STD that ravaged Europe and laid waste entire armies. Oh yes we got even by introducing small pox to the new world. Diseases are spread both ways.

[David Koot]

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Friend said:

To justify illegal activity as moral/legal payback for something that happened centuries ago, is irresponsible and dangerous. If we were to allow one instance of that, where would the line be drawn once the precedent is set? That would define the beginning of anarchy.

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Good point. It is irresponsible and dangerous, and quite unrealistic. Indeed, going back some centuries, one does not find an idyllic existence. The pre-Columbian civilizations engaged in orgies of killing and human sacrifice. I recall reading about one festive occasion for the Incas, I think it was, in which 20,000 captives were sacrified by ripping their hearts out while they were still alive. It was a cruel society, with terrible rites. Archaeological finds tell us that such was the norm in those civilizations. I believe that what happened to them was similar to what happened to the Canaanites. Finally, God had to bring it to a halt. They had become so evil. As for the North America indigenous peoples ('indigenous' used relatively) a historian during the 19th c. spent some years or so, living with certain of the tribes. (Francis Parkman was his name, I think.) His firsthand account of their life, depicts a very destructive culture, which seemed to glorify force, brutality, fighting and killing.

As for the present immigration issue, without a doubt, it seems to me, it is governed by political considerations. The Dems are in favor of granting citizenship, because they see millions of new constituents, and the hope of retaking both houses of Congress, and the presidency. The Republicans do not want to further alienate the Hispanic vote, so are afraid to take much of a stand in this election year.

Ultimately, it seems to be a serious problem. There are different ethics, different cultural mores, other important differences which could reshape American life and values. This is not a 'feel-good' type of issue. It has serious implications.

David Koot

[Neil D]

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The arguments you make are compelling reasons that have an immediate impact on our economy.

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Aaaah, so the bottom line is the almighty dollar, eh?

That is a good reason for allowing the immigrant worker into the US...because it cost's us money...

We have to find someone who is willing to work for what he thinks is 'good' money....

Why don't we just close the borderes, and pay americans wages that would allow them want to work in the field?

Has anyone thought of that?

We could erect a 8 foot large concrete wall with 3 feet razor wire on top and mine 20 feet inside America so that anyone crossing that area would suffer a blown foot or hand and it would discourage the immagrants from crossing into the US illegally....

Has anyone thought that would be a good idea???

**** please note...this is a question designed to cause more discussion. It may or may not be the actual working policy of the individual who posted this, but guess what? I won't tell!**********

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Lazarus

I am a Canadian who has come to the US legally and have been here for 7 years. Here's what my being here has done.

1. It cost me about $1000.00 in immigration fees to get here.

(Denise and I did this without the help of a lawyer so we saved a lot of money)

Multiply that by ten million and look at the money lost that could have gone to enforce border patrol or buying high tech equipment needed at the ports here.

I paid my $1000.00 and am not complaining, I'm here in good conscience and want to stay here as a law abiding resident.

2. I have paid thousands of dollars in Fed and State taxes and medicare and SS. This is contributing to the future of this country. A lot of these illegal aliens are not paying a cent towards the future of this country.

They are here to stay no doubt, but they should be made to pay at least $1000.00 each and registered so they can pay taxes.

Something happened in Canada a number of years ago. The french separtists in Quebec wanted to separate from Canada because they wanted their own country with their own language and their own currency. It was voted down everytime a referrendum was brought up.

That will happen here in one way or another and it will strain the relationships that now exist. If you have a mexican friend today, the problems of the future will cause that friendship to cease.

This happened in Quebec; French and English Canadians who got along before all this nonsense started were no longer friends after the votes. They ended up getting a lot of what they wanted though. Official language became French in Quebec and they created a language police to go and check businesses to make sure that all their signs were in French, even their computers in some cases!

If this problem is not nipped in the bud, you all can say goodbye to your country. The equal rights lawyers will see to it that they get all that they want and polititians will not stop them for fear of being branded racists. It'll take a number of years but it will happen, it's human nature.

Norman

[Neil D]

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A lot of these illegal aliens are not paying a cent towards the future of this country.

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What are you basing this information on???

The term "wetbacks" come to mind, as these guys are paid such that each farmer that pays them, does so with the immigration officer nearby...If he is caught paying an illegal, the fines alone could cause him to lose his farm. So, the farmer pays him and take out the SS and Fed taxes out of the pay check... He has to, as Uncle Sam don't like to be cheated out of his $$$$$......

[bevin]

The real point about 'reverse colonisation' is to realize that morality and ethics are NOT involved. It was no more and no less moral for Hispanics to come uninvited over the last 100 years than it was for the European's to come uninvited before that.

There are approximately 10M illegal immigrants now in the country - I don't know whether this figure includes the children who have been born here, and are thus US citizens.

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Give them all an opportunity to become citizens and move on!

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Yes, finding a way to 'move on' is the most important issue here.

They are here for exactly two reasons

(a) to make a better life for their families, *AND*

( because no-one stopped them

Bush is talking about an enforcement of a previously loosely enforced policy. Okay, lets make the border secure and block all further illegal immigration. Most people have no huge problem with that.

But what do you do about the 10M already here? If we do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING the problem will resolve itself in about 70 years. All their children will have been born US citizens and they will have died off.

Meanwhile there is the serious matter of having 5% of the country having inadequate social services. Inadequate access leads to an excessive burden on some charities, some schools, some hospitals. It leads to crime. It leads to poverty.

Seal the borders, but document the ones that are already here. It was our failure to enforce the rules that made it look like we did not really mean them.

/Bevin

[lazarus]

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bevin said:

The real point about 'reverse colonisation' is to realize that morality and ethics are NOT involved. It was no more and no less moral for Hispanics to come uninvited over the last 100 years than it was for the European's to come uninvited before that.

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Thanks Bevin.

In my posts I did not applaud the actions of those who came here illegally I was just trying to give a bit of context. Of course with a sprinkling of hyperbole!

Nations have done this kind of stuff to eachother for centuries. Of course Mexicans/Native Americans invaded and explioted others and the europeans coming was perhaps their reaping of what they had sown!

Norman,

Looks like we're in a similar position. You were wiser than I and we used a lawyer and the total so far is about $4,500. Thats the cost of being legal. I do it because I abide by the law. I pay taxes and all the other stuff too!

Self-determination is an age old problem. Could it be that a state such as Texas or a number of counties in Texas, in 2020, could want to vote to be autonomous. Of course! Like I said the USA has been changed forever. It all remains to be seen how this will pan out.

Lets be creative, lets see it as a way to enrich the mosaic.

Friend

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To justify illegal activity as moral/legal payback for something that happened centuries ago, is irresponsible and dangerous. If we were to allow one instance of that, where would the line be drawn once the precedent is set? That would define the beginning of anarchy.

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I don't see any attempt to justify in anything I have said. I was simply trying to get those of us who are MAD about thsese illegals to get some perspective. If you have 10 million undocumented people in the country I think in terms of immigration that anarchy is well established!

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so the idea that there is some form of reverse colonization has absolutely no merit whatsoever.

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Just in case u mised it the first time"

Laz

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Of course the USA was not a colonial power in normal sense of the word but perhaps its economic and political policies have bought us to this place.

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Neil made an attmept to offer some solutions. Any more solutions?

peace

[Dr. Shane]

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The Dems are in favor of granting citizenship, because they see millions of new constituents

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Do not confuse hispanics with blacks. 40% of hispanics vote Republican and the number grows each election. Those hispanics that immergrate here and become citizens are more likely to vote Republican than those that are born here.

[Dr. Shane]

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Sounds like an assumption...have any stats for your criminal and diseased statement?

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There is no assumption. I married an Adventist girl from El Salvador and she came in legally. She had to provide her criminal record or lack thereof and had to go through a complete health screening. This is standard for all immergrants immergrating legally.

As far as uncontrolled growth... Remember the story I told of a Texas city that grew from 1,000 to 10,000 in ten years. That is too fast for the infrastructure to keep up with it. Especially when many of the new residents are low income and do not pay enough taxes to support the required infrastructure.

[Dr. Shane]

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So, the farmer pays him and take out the SS and Fed taxes out of the pay check... He has to, as Uncle Sam don't like to be cheated out of his $$$$$......

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Not only that, many illegals are working with fake social security numbers so they never file taxes and thus never get a tax return and they will never collect social security.

[Dr. Shane]

The immergrants that come here miss their countries inthat they miss the culture which includes the family-orientated, slow-pace of life. However they do not miss their corrupt governments. I have yet to meet an immergrant that did not believe the American government to be better than that of their country of orgin.