Illegal Immigration=Colonisation in reverse

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

I have yet to meet an immergrant that did not believe the American government to be better than that of their country of orgin.

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Ahem.....ahem (gingerly raising my hand)

[Dr. Shane]

The the question begging to be asked is why is one here?

Admittedly, the vast majority of immergrants I have known are from corrupt Latin American countries. Those from England, Austraila, Israel or such may indeed prefer the parlamentary system of government.

[bevin]

We came for specific jobs and life styles in specific parts of the USA compared to what we had in our previous countries.

We did no come because we thought the government or the whole country was inherently better for everyone.

/Bevin - permanent resident, not citizen

[Bravus]

Just a couple of quick points:

1. There's nothing 'reverse' about it - if it's colonisation, then it's just colonisation. The fact that poor brown people are colonising a country largely populated by rich white people is contrary to the pattern of the past few centuries, true, but still, the term 'reverse' is essentially racist here, because it sees that sequence as a surprise, based on racial grounds. Anyone else remember our long discussion of 'reverse discrimination' here a while ago?

2. Illegal immigration is often justified on the grounds that illegals work cheaper. That's because they're exploited and vulnerable. A move to make them legal is a move to protect their rights, and on that score I laud what Bush is trying to do (don't faint, people!) Sure, it's not an ideal situation in terms of law and order, but the problem was allowed to develop, and needs to be solved in a fair way. The problem was allowed to develop precisely *because* these people could be exploited.

[Halfstep Denise]

To Lazarus -

Your response begs the question - if you think it's better somewhere else, why are you living here?

Halfstep Denise

[lazarus]

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Halfstep Denise said:

To Lazarus -

Your response begs the question - if you think it's better somewhere else, why are you living here?

Halfstep Denise

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We were talking about governments! There are many things I like about living here some things I don't. Millions of people live in countries where they don't like everything. There are many Americans living in many countries that don't like everything....thats ok isn't it!

[lazarus]

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Bravus said:

Just a couple of quick points:

The fact that poor brown people are colonising a country largely populated by rich white people is contrary to the pattern of the past few centuries, true, but still, the term 'reverse' is essentially racist here, because it sees that sequence as a surprise, based on racial grounds.

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Colonizers generally dominate the resources, labor, and markets of the colonial territory and may also impose socio-cultural, religious and linguistic structures on the conquered population. The term also refers to a set of beliefs used to legitimize or promote this system,

My guess is that Louise Bennett didn't have such a definition in mind when she spoke of "colonisation in reverse". Its a light hearted poem showing the irony of the colonial "masters" experiencing an influx of non-indigenous peoples "reversing" what had taken place years ago.

The term reverse simply comes from the understanding that Jamaica had been colonised and it was now colonising the UK.

I believe your assertion to be incorrect. The sequence is seen as a surprise because of historical grounds rather than racial! Its one thing for a former colony to colonise another country but the essence of the surprise is to see the coloniser being colonised.

The spectacle of brown people colonising rich white people did not loom that large for me!

[Halfstep Denise]

I was just curious! Thank you, Lazarus!

I'm sure we all have our moments when we wish we lived in some other country, thinking it would be better!

There's only one country that will definitely be better! Heaven and then the New Earth! I can't wait to live there!

Halfstep Denise

[Jeannieb43]

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Shane said:

Where I live the population is 87% hispanic.

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My position is that this is not a campaign against hispanics. It's a revolt against all the extra expense, disease, crowding, etc., which have resulted (especially in border States such as California, New York and Texas) because of the ILLEGAL immigrants who have moved into our neighborhoods.

My particular community is overrun by Armenians. They've pleaded "religious persecution" and have been accepted into this country under refugee status. Then they get food stamps and welfare benefits, plus money from their relatives back home, and they drive up to the local Safeway, spend their food stamps, and drive home in their brand new, shiny black Mercedes autos.

I realize America is "the Land of Plenty" and everybody wants to live here. But Please. There needs to be a rule of law. All our ancestors came from somewhere else, I realize. But they were so eager to do whatever it took to become real AMERICANS -- including learning the language! and working hard! and never asking for welfare!

I must say, the Mexican immigrants here, at least in Southern California, do not collect welfare benefits. They actually work. And they work hard. I never fear when I have a contractor doing my tree trimming, for instance, if they have Mexican workers on their team. They work hard, and long, and conscientiously; they don't leave trash or litter behind them; they do more than they're required to do.

It's just that the infrastructure of this whole State is unable to accommodate the huge influx of new people, so fast.

[Dr. Shane]

I am on the same page with Jeannie. I think the only area where we disagree is providing medial and educational services to illegals. I think if we make doctors report illegals we will have illegals dying from simply infections because they will not seek medical help. I think if we deny public education to illegals they will join gangs and become crimiinals.

I believe the problem needs to be solved at the border and through a guest worker program. But I do see it as a problem.

Another little story I will tell. I have known a couple illegals that have abandoned their wives and children in Mexico, come to the US and married here - even thogh they never divorced their wives in Mexico. That would not happen with a guest worker program. We would know of a person was married or not when they came and if they were already married, they would not be allowed to marry here until they return home and get a divorce.

[Halfstep Denise]

Shane -

If a person doesn't tell the truth, how would you know if he/she were married when they entered this country alone?

Illegals aren't big on telling the truth! They have to be great liars and remember what lie they told to what person in order to function in this country and stay here!

Illegals not only break man's laws, but God's law of "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness"! That's a double whammy!

What would it take to improve conditions in Mexico so the conditions wouldn't be so desperate?

Maybe we need to make it easier for people to come into the U.S. legally. But, I'm not saying to drop immigration laws completely!

Halfstep Denise

[Jeannieb43]

I just returned home from picking up my dry cleaning at my neighborhood cleaners, owned and operated by an Armenian family; from getting my car washed, at an Armenian car wash; from having my car serviced at an Armenian-owned dealership.

And I must revise my previous statement. That really are a lot of fine members of that ethnic group who have settled here in my town. I should not paint them all with one broad brush. Just as with Caucasians, there are "bad apples" in every basket -- but mostly good ones, too.

So please don't think I'm bigoted. We all came from Adam and Eve originally - and they lived in what is now Turkey [or Armenia]! (Right??)

[Dr. Shane]

In Mexico, like many countries, the government keeps track of a person's marital status just like in the US the government keeps track of a criminal's record. When a person wants to immergrate to the US one of the documents they must provide is their marital status. They obtain it from the government. So it isn't something they can lie about.

Conditions in Mexico are not that bad. Many Mexicans choose to stay in Mexico and, believe it or not, many that come to the US return to Mexico even after they have legal status in the US. It is mostly the peasants and the criminal element that come to the US illegally. Peasants carry a higher risk of disease due to lack of education and medical care in their own country and criminals obviously are more likely to commit crime here. So while there are many good-intentioned folks that come illegally, many are bad apples which is another reason Mexico won't do anything to keep them from leaving.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Neil,

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What are you basing this information on???

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Two things, if they are illegal they have not paid the immigration fees like I have. Working under the table gives you no way to pay taxes and support the country your in illegally.

I took the legal route and am glad to be able to pay my taxes and support this great country,

I am thankful to be here and am prospering by the grace of God. I spend money here and don't send it back to Canada.

A lot of the Illegals come here and get a lot of things free. I got sick over Labor day w/e and in the end I paid about $1000.00. Some of these illegals can get that free.

I'm not complaining just making a comparison on things I know about. I live in GA and there is a lot of building going on and there are a lot of illegals here. Those are the facts that I base my comments on.

Norman

[Pockey]

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Jeannieb43 said:

Then they get food stamps and welfare benefits, plus money from their relatives back home, and they drive up to the local Safeway, spend their food stamps, and drive home in their brand new, shiny black Mercedes autos.

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This annoys me when people game the system. It's fleecing America.

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I must say, the Mexican immigrants here, at least in Southern California, do not collect welfare benefits. They actually work. And they work hard. I never fear when I have a contractor doing my tree trimming, for instance, if they have Mexican workers on their team. They work hard, and long, and conscientiously; they don't leave trash or litter behind them; they do more than they're required to do.

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Well that's what I thought too, until I hired several Mexican gentlemen to help me move some stuff. One went into my closet and lit up a crack pipe. I was like, "um, can you not do that please."

On another note, why do the politicians who are so steamed on immigration reform give off a serious racist vibe?

[Dr. Shane]

One proposal not being discussed in Congress now, is that entitlements like food stamps, welfare, etc. should only be available to American citizens. Such things as Social Security and unemployment would still be available to US residents since these are not entitlements but require one to pay in. That way immergrants would have to naturalize before collecting any entitlements.

[Naomi]

yes there are many issues concerning illegal immigration. I believe this debate and the "fleecing" of America has been going on for a very long time. The American Indians called them, "The White Man"

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/mf_surrender.gif" alt="" /> Only trying to find a little humor in the mix.

[Dr. Shane]

I know the process. One cannot come to the US legally without a health screening. If one has TB or HIV they will not be allowed in. Nothing racist about that unless TB and HIV are racist diseases.

Those that come legally also much pass a criminal background check. My brother-in-law recently tried to get a visa to Costa Rica and Costa Rica denied him becuase of he has a criminal record in El Salvador. That is how the system works.

A nation has the right to protect its borders regardless if it is the US or Costa Rica.

[Amelia]

I saw one of those in depth news shows about identity theft. One thing they touched on was social security numbers. Seems fraud specialists are now just using random numbers for bogus SSN cards and selling those on the black market to illegals. This has impacted numorous people who's SSN's have been ursurpt at random. In some cases it was years before they found out their numbers were being used by others. And apparently there is nothing that can be done about it! So, illegals make the cons rich in order to stay and work, then they send the bulk of their earnings back home.

[Dr. Shane]

The IRS could catch it easy with a little effort. When a person claims $40k in income for a year but their employers' social security contributions for their SSN represent $56K and one employer is in WY and the other is in AZ a red light should go off. The employer in AZ paying someone $16k/year is likely employing an illegal.

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

I know the process. One cannot come to the US legally without a health screening. If one has TB or HIV they will not be allowed in. Nothing racist about that unless TB and HIV are racist diseases.

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I am here legally and have never had any kind of health screening test! you dont have to have one to come here!

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A nation has the right to protect its borders regardless if it is the US or Costa Rica.

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The problem with the American system right now is that it is woefully inadequate and ineffiencient. I don't believe that 12 million people got here by crossing the border. The Immigration service just lost track!

[Dr. Shane]

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I am here legally and have never had any kind of health screening test! you dont have to have one to come here!

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I wonder if the health screening is done depending upon the country the immergrant is coming from. My wife had to have one as have all her family that has come from El Salvador. They were looking specifically for HIV and TB.

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I don't believe that 12 million people got here by crossing the border.

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40% are here because they have overstayed their visas. Just like the 9/11 terrorists.

[lazarus]

An Old Story - Scapegoat Immigrants

By Robert Scheer

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032906D.shtml

.....The script is as old as the Mayflower: A false alarm is sounded that the values, wages and safety of the roster of credentialed Americans are jeopardized by the "flood" or "tidal wave" or "river" sneaking across our porous borders - be they Irish, Chinese, Jewish, Russian, Mexican or even the freed slaves seeking to earn an honest living in Northern cities after the Civil War. Any and all manner of societal problems are to be laid on these scapegoats, and the same simplistic solution offered: Find and deport them, and don't let any more in....

.......This is a moment of truth for America. It is time we acknowledged that we need the immigrant workers as much as they need us and began to treat them with the respect they deserve

[Dr. Shane]

Let's not confuse legal immirgrants and illegal immirgrants. The American economy needs immirgrant labor. Only a few labor unions are saying it doesn't.

Immirgrants do jobs Americans don't want for the prevailing wage the jobs pay. Americans would work in slaughter houses for $15 - $25/hour but not for the $7 - $9/hour immirgrants will. The labor union crowd wants to run the immirgrant labor out so these low paying jobs will be forced to pay more and attract American workers. However in the global economy we live in, that would make our meat and agricultural businesses unable to compete in the world market by driving the cost of our food up.

So we need the cheap labor but that doesn't mean we open our boarder or reward those that come accross it illegally. There are many that have come here legally and are waiting for their families to follow them legally. It isn't just to make their law-abiding families to wait while we reward all the law-breakers that came in illegally or overstayed their visas.

If we let the illegals stay, we need to make them pay a substantial fine and not make citizenship something easy. It needs to be easier to come here legally can become a citizen than to come here illegally and become a citizen.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

.... provide the labor for the jobs Americans do not want.

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Who benefits? Again, the rich!

The truth of the matter is "big business" wants to fill their wallets with the green stuff. That means those Americans that could get minimum wage can no longer get a job because the illegals are working for 75% less.

Besides, who told you that Americans didn't want to do certain jobs...the oilman in Washington, George Bush?

Bush is selling America out. He's fully biased towards corporate American. We the people vote him in and than the corporations bribe him into seeing things their way.

Rob