Illegal Immigration=Colonisation in reverse

[Robert]

Shane, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but I bet it could be oursourced to some Indian worker. They could easily get a rotating visa, say about every 6 months, and do your job for literally 1/10 of your salary!

Assuming you make $40k/year...well, "big business" can get it for approximately $4k/year and you’re forced to a minimum wage or about $12k/year.

You need to open your eyes! This is all about screwing the middle class over while corporations go unchecked.

Rob

[bonnie]

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Robert said:

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Shane said:

.... provide the labor for the jobs Americans do not want.

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Who benefits? Again, the rich!

The truth of the matter is "big business" wants to fill their wallets with the green stuff. That means those Americans that could get minimum wage can no longer get a job because the illegals are working for 75% less.

Besides, who told you that Americans didn't want to do certain jobs...the oilman in Washington, George Bush?

Bush is selling America out. He's fully biased towards corporate American. We the people vote him in and than the corporations bribe him into seeing things their way.

Rob

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It is pretty clear you are clueless about construction, at least in our neck of the woods. Long before George Bush became president it was clear as day that there were jobs in the construction field americans didn't want to do if it could be avoided. My husband worked housing construction most of our married life and had a far better grasp of what went on than you seem to. He had his own business and could ill afford to hire an untrained illegal to work for him. His work had to be guaranteed for a year, if it failed to hold up, his fault, their fault, nobodies fault, we had to go good for it. Few american crews would do roofing if it were to hot, mexican crews were always on the job. Not illegals, but mexicans non-the less. Not paid less either. Americans would not do roofing here if they thought it to cold, mexicans again were always on the job, WHY?? They have a strong work ethic and were saving to bring their families here.

Americans refused to lay asphalt driveways if it were to hot, mexicans again were on the job. George Bush had nothing to do with it.

I am sure it is different for the migrant farm worker, but you are way off base at least as far as constuction in MN goes and how it works.

I know that Shane is in some type of construction, not sure what, but I doubt if there could be much outsourcing of his job either. When you have to stand behind your work for a period of time and it is your livihood it is not to likely. Regardless of who is president.

Where would my husband for example find an illegal that knows how to prep the wood and with what, how to spray enamel which is tricky and takes practice to do it correctly and to pass inspection in 750,000.00 homes. Just isn't going to happen.

My brother has a steel erection company. Builds the foundations and supports for some mighty big and expensive buildings. Who in his right mind is going to outsource that to anyone that is ignorant of the requirements of that job. Just the building of it can be dangerous work. And yeah, my brother is one of those nasty rich, he did not get that way hiring illegals,paying below minimum wage, cutting corners, or refusing health care to his employees. He is non union, would close up shop before he would go union, but his men are paid the going rate or if when called for merit pay above and beyond. No way, no how, under no circumstances, no matter how you would like to believe that all exploit illegals is it true.

If men like my husband had not made money, that good old filthy dollar, he could not have paid the men he did. If my brother had not been sucessful, he could not have employed and by so doing provided for as many families as he did. Just as if your employer had not been sucessful you would not be driving the fancy car you drive. A nice gesture on your part might be to give it to a illegal to get back and forth to see his family

[Dr. Shane]

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Who benefits?

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Most of the low-paying jobs are in retail and restuaruant work. So people that eat at resuarants and purchase retail goods benefit from cheap labor.

Construction, agriculture and slaughter houses are typically not low-paying jobs but they are hardwork. Immigrants do these jobs for lower wages (although more than minimum) than Americans would. So anyone that uses newly built buildings (homes, schools, hospitals, clinics, hotels, retail centers, etc.) or roads benefits. Anyone that eats food benefits?

I hope that clears it up.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

...people that eat at resuarants and purchase retail goods benefit from cheap labor. I hope that clears it up.

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Illegals get way below minimum wage....Who are you kidding?

And while the public might benefit a little, the big benefit goes to those "greedy" corporations. It's about greed and corruption....

Back to reality!

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

No, illegals do not get less than minimum wage. The reason they come here is because minimum wage is so much more than what they can earn back home. Many live together so they can offset the high cost of housing here.

Even those that pick onions and sugar beets are making more than minimum wage. In fact, the reason they like agriculture jobs so much is because they are paid for the quantity they pick so if they work hard they make a lot. Many of the migrant workers will make $500/week in the fields and minimum wage for 40 hours is just above $200/week.

One needs to understand business. In order to pay an employee less than minimum wage I would have to pay cash so there is not record. First problem would be finding a worker that would work for so little. Secondly, if there is no record than I cannot deduct it from my expenses for tax puposes. That means all the money I pay for illegal labor is taxed as if it was profit. That would be counter productive. It is better to pay minimum wage and not pay taxes on it.

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

It is pretty clear you are clueless about construction...

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How nice....

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He had his own business and could ill afford to hire an untrained illegal to work for him.

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Illegals can be trained....Did you not realize that? Here in SC they are building homes. Most of them are illegals.

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They [Mexican/illegals] have a strong work ethic and were saving to bring their families here.

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Does that infer that you are lazy and do not have a strong work ethic? If not, be careful with stereotypes.

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George Bush had nothing to do with it.

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George Bush lives for corporate American. That is a fact. Put blinders on if you must....

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I know that Shane is in some type of construction, not sure what, but I doubt if there could be much outsourcing of his job either.

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Again, you are out of touch with reality. Everything can be outsourced....Many Engineers...especially in IT have lost their jobs to Indians making 1/10 the salaries! Why? Corporate American and Washington in bed together producing illegitimate, unfair labor laws that benefits the "rich" who take their money and make more foreign investments to make more money.

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If men like my husband had not made money, that good old filthy dollar, he could not have paid the men he did.

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"Filthy dollars" IF he broke laws....But you say he did not. SO your point is moot.

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If my brother had not been successful, he could not have employed and by so doing provided for as many families as he did.

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Who benefits the most? Right…your brother. How righteous of him….

The fact is the company I work for use to (before American management) be happy with 10% profit. Now, after cutting and slashing to make the stockholders $$$, it’s just another greedy American company. Now it's cut-throat just like anyother Corporation. How lovely!

[Robert]

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Shane said:

No, illegals do not get less than minimum wage.

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YES, illegals make less than minimum wage!

[CyberGuy]

Bonnie

I do not know if it is this way in MN but in California we have up to four Mexican families living under one roof. We have two houses on our street where there must be 15 to 20 people living in a two bathroom four bedroom house. six to eight cars crowd the street that is owned by people in that house. They are over crowding our schools to the point of breaking the system. With so many living in one house and six to eight kids in the same house property taxes cannot keep up with the burden of supporting those kids in school. This is a sore point to many of us who do pay taxes and there is talk of raising property taxes because of so many in the schools.

This will continue to be a sore point with many tax payers.

[Robert]

Shane,

Do you know why slavery was allowed in America for some 200 years?

Answer: Greed!

This same greed is allowing corporations to once again take advantage. Yes it's not slavery as we know it, but America is once again on that slippery slope.

[bonnie]

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CyberGuy said:

Bonnie

I do not know if it is this way in MN but in California we have up to four Mexican families living under one roof. We have two houses on our street where there must be 15 to 20 people living in a two bathroom four bedroom house. six to eight cars crowd the street that is owned by people in that house. They are over crowding our schools to the point of breaking the system. With so many living in one house and six to eight kids in the same house property taxes cannot keep up with the burden of supporting those kids in school. This is a sore point to many of us who do pay taxes and there is talk of raising property taxes because of so many in the schools.

This will continue to be a sore point with many tax payers.

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In area's that the migrant farm workers flock to it is true up to some extent.

I am not saying that illegals don't cause a problem. They do. And some are employed because they do wrok for cheaper hourly wage.

But Robert is off in his blanket statement again.

First off, of course there was no mention of my brother being or feeling righteous. None whatsoever. And of course he worked hard to benefit himself.When people run a business and work hard that speards to others. But it is Robert's way of staying away from the obvious.

When he talks of illegals being trained for construction, I am sure in some area's they could be in ,nothing is impossible It would not be worth my husband's time, let alone the financial loss to do so. Same for my brother to keep training and training and training every six months or so.

[John317]

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Robert said:

Shane,

Do you know why slavery was allowed in America for some 200 years?

Answer: Greed!

This same greed is allowing corporations to once again take advantage. Yes it's not slavery as we know it, but America is once again on that slippery slope.

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I don't see America as doing anything evil when it comes to the immigration problems we have in this country. America has a right to protect her borders. As Americans we have nothing to be ashamed of. We have problems because people in other countries see the great potential of a better life here. I know something about it first hand. As a kid I used to help Mexican illegals riding freight trains escape from the border patrol by guiding them around the patrols as the illegals walked up the tracks towards LA.

When I married my wife about 20 years ago, she was an illegal alien, and she has family here who are illegal. A niece came here with her husband and 3 kids because her little boy could not get good medical treatment in Mexico for his cancer. Ironically, the little boy died in a Fresno hospital because the doctors misdiagnosed a simple appendicitis. One of her other children was born in an American hospital and Americans paid for it. The father has a good, well-paying job as a cook at a large hotel there. His wife, though illegal, graduated from high school in Fresno.

One of my wife's best friends is an illegal alien from Guatemala. She came to Loma Linda in order to have her little girl get a heart transplant. Her daughter is now 15 and still must stay close by the hospital in order to get her medicine. She often has to go into the hospital because of continuing heart trouble. If she ever left the US and went to Guatemala, she would die because she could not get the treatment or medicine there that she needs in order to keep her body from rejecting her heart. (By the way, my wife introduced her to the Adventist faith and she is now an SDA.)

We have close friends who are Muslims from Afghanistan and happen to be illegal aliens. We've been friends since we moved next door to them in Loma Linda back in 1990. The US government has yet to decide whether they and their 3 boys must return to Afghanistan. Their youngest, 5, was born here. The father climbed the mountains into Pakistan to escape from the Russians and then brought his family to America in search of safety and freedom. Their oldest, 20, born in Afghanistan, is going to La Sierra University in order to become a physician's assistant. (Adventists are paying for his education.) He is already working, although he's illegal. As a young boy he spoke of wanting to become a Muslim cleric, but he no longer talks about that now. After 9/11, the father spent over a year in jail.

He says that if sent back his sons would have a good chance of being killed there because they would be considered Westerners.

We still have a great country that we can be proud of because of its generosity and freedom. I don't see us as greedy. I see us as a nation of givers. Jim

[Robert]

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John317 said:

I don't see America as doing anything evil when it comes to the immigration problems we have in this country.

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Immigration laws have been systematically overlooked so that corporate America can profit off the backs of the poor. That's called exploitation and the last time I checked that's evil.

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One of her other children were born in an American hospital and Americans paid for it.

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In Calf. 9 hospitals have gone out of business because of this immigration issue. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

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... we can be proud of because of its generosity and freedom. I don't see us as greedy. I see us as a nation of givers.

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I don't see "we" as equaling "corporate America"....Corporate America will the one whom eventually takes your 1st Amendment rights away. It's all about profit....

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

And of course he worked hard

to benefit himself

. When people run a business and work hard that speards to others. But it is Robert's way of staying away from the obvious.

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Your brother wanted more money....So he drummed up more business. To get more money he had to hire employees. The employees are there to make him even more money. Business are always looking at cutting what they call "the fat" but what it really means is they want more and more profit.

So who's getting rich - the employees? Try the employer! As more and more hire illegals your brother, if he wants maintain his lifestyle, will have to play the same game. In the meantime his legal employees will lose.

Rob

[Robert]

Read!

Here's a sample from the above url:

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this new slave class reveals the immoral and unethical greed of our highest officials from governors and mayors in every corner of America all the way to the presidency as well as corporate heads--descending all the way to the tiniest businesses-such as restaurants, hotels, roofing contractors, paving companies, construction concerns, landscaping and private citizens who hire illegal slaves. In the end, we all pay for exploiting other human beings for profit or ill-gotten gain. If we didn't learn from the trauma of civil war in 1865, must we learn again? If we act soon, we may be able to avert civil violence. Otherwise, we shall suffer terrible consequences for all Americans.

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[Robert]

BTW...on a side note, I see trouble ahead. Because of this influx of illegals this nation will eventually go from a Protestant majority to a Catholic majority.

Most illegals are of the Catholic faith and that spells trouble. Why? The Papacy has always denounced the sepatation of church and state. Perhaps this is what will bring in a national Sunday law?

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

The Catholic church has some problems in the US. While in Latin America most church goers are Catholics, most hispanic church goers in the US are Pentecostal. This is one of the major cultural differences between the hispanics in Latin America and those in the US. Most hispanics in the US do identify themselves as Catholics but when asked if they attend church on a regular basis, most that answer yes are not Catholic but Pentecostal. Nearly 40% of hispanics in the US identify themselves as evagelical or born-again.

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Although Hispanic leaders don't say so explicitly, it's pretty obvious that Catholicism is, for many Hispanic evangelicals, equated with the political machinery of their homelands. From the Rio Grande to the tip of South America, church and state are one, and in places like Argentina and Chile, the Roman Catholic Church has lost credibility by cozying up to brutal dictatorships. In Central American nations wracked by civil war, the Church—by definition Catholic—is often perceived as powerless.

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[bonnie]

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Robert said:

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bonnie said:

And of course he worked hard

to benefit himself

. When people run a business and work hard that speards to others. But it is Robert's way of staying away from the obvious.

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Your brother wanted more money....So he drummed up more business. To get more money he had to hire employees. The employees are there to make him even more money. Business are always looking at cutting what they call "the fat" but what it really means is they want more and more profit.

So who's getting rich - the employees? Try the employer! As more and more hire illegals your brother, if he wants maintain his lifestyle, will have to play the same game. In the meantime his legal employees will lose.

Rob

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You know Robert, it must be hard to walk around each day so consumed with envy towards those that have more than you, whether it be ambition, money,education or whatever.

You add your own emphasis to what I said, which is basically dishonest. You do this routinely. Anyone not familiar with your tactics and doing a casual reading is going to assume that I underscored "to benefit himself" but of course I didn't. You, with your envy towards someone that has suceeded far beyond you placed that there.

Everyone that gets up and goes to work in the morning does so to benefit themselves and their families. They need to eat, be clothed, kept warm and all the rest that goes into daily life.

No, my brother will never hire illegals. He cannot do so and if you were not so obsessed with envey and dislike of someone that has more than you, you would not make or bear false witnes against someone you don't even know. Seems to me that ranks right up there as a sin as well. My brother files taxes, his employes must have a SS number. As an employer my brother pays a portion of their taxes, he pays into their pension fund, he pays a goodly portion of their insurance premium. All carries a need for the employee to be identified. Only your anger and envy keep you from understanding that. In some businesses there may be a work around, but not for him. Just as there was not for my husband. Anyplace that the work carries a substantial guarantee, it is pretty tough to hire untrained and unskilled that won't be around for the long haul. Tough enough in the trades as it is to get help that hangs in there, at least they need experience or need to be legal. Can't afford the mess to be dealing with illegals. Even in a large metropolitan area, it tends to be quite small when it comes to reputation. You watch your rep if you want the business that pays. And you know us greedy, capitilists?? Always on the lookout for the almighty dollor. Best way to do that is to keep a spotless reputation. Only the hit and run business would do business the way you describe.

Bonnie

[CyberGuy]

Bonnie

I think the border states such as California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas the problem is more severe.

Look at the protests. 500,000 mexicans crowd the streets of LA protesting this proposed law. Many Hispanics walked out of school in our area to prostest the proposed law.

I heard that half of the labor in LA is paid under the table at below than minimun wages to many of the illegals. This is lost in any taxes to the state to help pay for the benefits in schools nad health care for these people.

You have to look at the other side of this issue. The people who proposed this law although way to harsh IMO do have valid points.

[Paula]

I am really bothered by reading how people view illegal immigration, and illegals. To read posts and newspaper articles, and reports on CNN, Fox, and all other media outlets, is to see the ignorance (I don't mean that as a put down, but in the sense of not having a deep, thorough, knowledge) of the majority of Americans on this subject. I can understand the people being ignorant in the matter of Immigration, but I cannot accept it from the media. If they actually did their job, and researched the subject, then turned around and reported the TRUTH, I believe the American people would view this subject very, very differently.

There are many layers to this, so I will break it down into three parts. First, I want you to know WHO illegals are. They are not the disease-infested, criminals that Shane would have you believe them to be. I will then go into WHY they come illegaly. What the system is like. And finally, what the INS laws and procedures are like. So let me do my best to pass on some of the TRUTHS of immigration.. illegal and otherwise, by telling you my story.

In 1970 my father was a single 17 year old. He had just finished high school, and was extremely intelligent. The US had a program similar to the Guest Worker program that they now want to adopt. If you were in a foreign country and wanted to immigrate to the US, you would go to the US Embassy in your country, apply, and then be called to the US. My father decided he would go to the US, learn the language, work hard and go to college... he applied and was approved. However, his father died and his mother developed a severe from Rumathoid Arthritis. Doctors in Brazil told my dad that the only treatment available was in the US. My father then requested to bring his mother with him. He would work and pay for all her medical treatment, but he wanted the chance to save her life. The US denied his request. So he stayed in Brazil another 5 years caring for his mother. She spent the last 3 years of her life paralized in bed, not capable of even turning around. My father cared for her until she died. When she died, my father was 21. He had one older brother(23) who had long ago left the home. An 18 year old sister, a 16 year old brother and a 14 year old sister. And now they were orphans. He had not gone to college, because after the death of his father, he had to provide for his family, and care for his ailing mother. And now, his approval to go to the US had expired. He went back to the Embassy only to be told that the program no longer existed. The US had in effect, closed its doors to laborers. Unless you were a doctor, or a wealthy business man, or related to an American citizen, or a student with thousands of dollars in the bank to pay for a full years tuition... Americas doors were closed.

So my father stayed. In 1975 he married my mother. He was 22, she was 16. In 1976 I was born. My father did his best to provide for us AS WELL AS for his siblings. He started a couple of businesses, but the economy was brutal. Finally, after much wrestling (my father was, and still is very proud... the thought of coming "uninvited" still bothers him)he decided to come to the US on a Tourism Visa. It was december of 1978. He came alone. Whis is very telling of how desperate things had become. My father, the son of Portuguese Immigrants, who had once owned the whole town were he lived, who were one of the first people in their state to have an imported Ford car, (his father lost everything due to drinking and gambling), was now leaving his wife, siblings and his 2 year old daughter, because there wasn't enough money for food. Of course he overstayed his visa. In early 1980 my mother and I borded an airplane with a group going to the General Conference of SDA's. The airplane would make a stop in Chicago, and then go on to its final destination. That is where we got off, and were reunited with my father. I was 3 years old.

My parents were here illegaly, but back then that didn't mean much. You could still get a SS card, a drivers license, etc.. etc.. You could pay taxes, and live like everyone else. My parents worked hard. They would leave me at the sitter at 4 in the afternoon. My mom would only come back to pick me up at 7 in the morning the next day. By bus. She would then get on another bus and take me to school/day care. At noon my father would arrive. At two my mom would pick me up at school. My father would sleep until 3:30, at which time we would have an early dinner together (my mother cooked for us EVERY DAY), in order to be out of the house by 4pm. They did this 5 days a week during their first 4 years here. Then, my father started doing it 7 days a week (he was SDA, but was going through a tough time spiritually at this time). My mother would take the bus every sabbath morning and we would go to the North Shore SDA church. No one ever spoke to her there.. but every week there we were. In 1983 my brother was born, and then in 1987 my sister. In the early 1980's they had a sort of "amnesty". My father went to 3 lawyers, and they all told him that the amnesty was fake.. that it was really a way for INS to get people and deport them. This was a lie of course, but my parents didn't know, and missed their chance. Then in 1986 there was the farm amnesty, and my mother applied, and got her greencard. In 1987 she applied for my father and myself. We moved to Florida, my dad (who never abandoned his faith, though he was not living it) stopped working Sabbaths, and they worked at regular jobs. My dad as a security guard and a part time sous chef. My mother as a waitress at a fancy restaurant. Finally, we could sleep in our own beds at our own home. But while my dad and I received work permits in 1991, we never received a greencard. INS had lost our records. We reapplied 2 more times before my dad received his greencard. But mine never came. Not only that, they cancelled my work permit (because as a teen, I didn't work). I was officially illegal, with 2 US born siblings and legal parents.

In high school I was into student government and journalism, my two passions. I was a student Senator for a Nationwide organization, which had as alumns, JFK, and Bill Clinton. I was editor-in-chief of the school paper. And a winner of awards in Journalism at the state level. I was an intern at the Sun-Sentinel (our local newspaper. owned by the Tribune Company). I was offered a full scholarship to study my passion- journalism. But I couldn't go to college. Because I was illegal. The INS had denied my request for residency, and on top of that, had decided that I had no right to an appeal. To this day my lawyer cannot understand why they would do this to a child. Basically it was a "glitch". I graduated high school, and at 19 I met a man who was here on a 6 month tourism visa. He was an SDA, Pastors kid, a musician, singer-songwriter, and painter/sculpter/ artist. Needless to say, I fell head over heals for him. We were married, and a year later had a son. Finally my mother became a US Citizen. She could then apply for me once again. In January of 1998 my mother applied for residency for myself and my husband. My son was almost 2. We hired an attorney, and paid a $2000 fee. A few months later we received confirmation that they had received our request, and it would be processed. They never sent us a work permit, an authorization to be here. NOTHING. It wasn't until February of LAST year that we received an order to go get our finger prints and medical exams done. And then in August of 2005 we finally got our work permits. From 1998 to 2005 we were essentially here illegaly. If INS stopped us, we could be deported, and kept out of the country for 10 years. It wasn't until 2 weeks ago that I finally had my INS interview. My greencard will arrive in 2 weeks. However, there was a "glitch" in the system, and my husbands interview was cancelled. Who knows when they will call him in to get his greencard. We now have 3 kids, and I will be 30 this year. I was unable to go to college, unable to give my American kids the life that they deserved. I am the daughter of a US Citizen and a legal resident and a sister of 2 US citizens (in med school by the way), and up until 1 year ago I was illegal. And if you think I am an exception to the rule, you are sorely mistaken. Their are thousands of people like me. Who's whole family is legal, but they are not. However, since 1998, if you missed out on paying the fee for the I245 law, even if you have a means of becomign legal (such as a legal parent or employer willing to legalize you), you are not allowed to because the new law prohibits a change of status. So you get thousands of families that are torn apart. If an American marries an ilegal, she cannot legalize him. He must leave the country. And another law passed in 1996 made it so that anyone who has over stayed their visa for less than 6 months must stay out of the country for 3 years. Anyone who has overstayed their visa for more than 6 months must stay out for 10 years. So no one leaves. They stay on, illegaly, in the hopes that some law will come along and allow them to apply for residency. There are thousands of fathers, mothers, siblings, and children being torn apart because of archaic, unworkable, indefensible laws. What the US did was make it impossible to get legal, and now they want to criminalize the ilegals for it.

I tell you all this, not to excuse illegal immigration, but to tell you WHO illegals are. They are not criminals. In fact there are hundreds of thousands of illegal SDA's in the US today. Here in South Florida there are Brazilian SDA churches, as well as Brazilian churches of EVERY other denomination, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Catholic, etc.. etc... (not to mention the hispanic and haitian churches) packed full of illegals. Many are pastors, worship leaders, choir directors. Ninety percent came on tourism visas, school visas, work visas, and overstayed. Many sit next to you in church every week and you don't even know it. They are law abiding citizens. They pay their taxes, pay into SS (which they will never get anything out of), they own their own businesses, they tithe, they have families, and they have american children. Most of you don't know this, but up until 1975 if you were here illegaly and had an american child, you were automatically granted citizenship. Then things started to change. These are people who would come here legally in a heartbeat, if there were any legal means to do so. But the reality (which no one states on the news) is that since the early 1970's the US has closed its doors to legal immigration by laborers. You can come here legally, yes, if you are a nurse, or a doctor, or an IT specialist. An engineer, and a wealthy business man, as well as a student with about 35K in the bank. But if you are poor, if you are a laborer (even a skilled one in the trades), there is NO policy for legally immigrating. Basically what the US did was close its doors to this segment of society, and then turned a blind eye to their coming here. The US WANTS illegals here, because they work hard, they work dirty jobs, they work for almost nothing, and then when they are no longer convenient, they can be deported. It is good politics to call illegals criminals, and to say they should have come here legally, wink wink (when they know fully that it isn't possible for 90% of these people).

The truth is INS turns a blind eye. Let me give you some examples. There is a family at our church who are here illegaly. They are a HUGE family, made up of 8 brothers, with their wives and kids. They pooled their resources and opened a used car dealership. Their business grew to the point that they opened a branch in Orlando (they are in Ft. Laud). A year ago two of the brothers were taking a flight to Orlando when INS officials asked them for their greencard. They said they didn't have any. The officials questioned them. Asked them what they did for a living. They told them. The officials then went to their homes and saw all the paperwork for the company. They called an official in Orlando who went to that branch, and checked out all their paperwork. Everything was in order, they paid LOTS of taxes. They were let go. Nothing was filed against them. There are a few people at our church who have been stopped by INS. When INS sees that they have jobs and pay taxes, have no criminal background, they are let go. This is not something the officers do out of the kindness of their hearts. These are orders that come from the top. If they are a menance, deport them, but if they give us a profit (taxes, good jobs, etc..) keep them. We go to a Brazilian SDA church. Of the 500 members about 80% are illegal. Of that 80% I'd say about 90% own their homes. They pay taxes. They work in the trades (we have window installers, painters, marble installers and cutters, hardwood installers, screen enclosure professionals, etc.. etc..). We have several people who are illegal and own their companies in the construction business and hire AMERICANS! We have illegals who are Realtors and Mortgage Brokers, who own cleaning companies, and even a Hair Salon. Most speak English fluently, have adapted and are integrated in their communities. This is true in almost every immigrant community, as it was in the past. They pay their taxes, and most of these people have American born children. Most have health insurance (in fact one of the illegals at our church SELLS personal health insurance). Of course things change a bit in regards to illegal mexicans. A lot of them are not only very poor, but very simple humble people with no formal education. They come here and do menial jobs, and never really get ahead, because they don't have a good solid base or foundation on which to build. And the reason that many of their kids never finish high school (as opposed to brazilians, argentenians, irish (of which there are over 1 million here ilegally) and other foreigners) is because they have to help their families. These kids are illegal, have no prospects of ever gaining legalization, nor of having a good job, and so they drop out to help their parents on the fields, and in their cleaning jobs, and so on and so forth.

As for their conduct in this country, in the years that I have been an illegal, I have always paid my taxes. All the while, I have lived a substandard existence. As for ilegals using governmental aid, I don't know how it is in the rest of the US, but in Florida, if you are illegal you have NO access to welfare, medicaid, medicare, nor any other federal/state services. While my husband worked jobs that didn't offer him insurance, I would go 3-4 years without a pap smear (quite a gamble considering cancer is the number one killer in my family, and we are being tested for the cancer gene). I had a physical for the first time in 12 years last year (after my husband got a job that offered us insurance). When I was pregnant, I would wait until the 7th month to start my prenatal because I would be paying, and I couldn't afford to pay for the full 9 months. We have always paid taxes. We have always had car insurance. The people who are here ilegally, by and large, are making a better life for themselves and are contributing to society.

The reality is that INS is broken. There is no way for "these people" to come in legally. That is why they come the way they do. Believe me, if they could apply in their own countries, wait 2-3 years, and then come here with legal papers, that they would do so. No one enjoys living as an illegal. If the US had a civilized, viable, comprehensive INS program, people would use it. That is why it is so important that these new immigration laws include a comprehensive approach. That they not only deal with the ilegals currently in the country, but that they re-open ways for ilegals to come in legally, and with as little red tape and bearucracy as possible. Making up heartless, unreasonable laws, and closing borders will not work. This needs to be done right.

Now I hope that in speaking about this issue, I have not given the impression that I am anti-American. Nothing could be further from the truth. I know no country as my own except for this one. I have been here for 26 of my 29 years. I grew up saying the pledge, and singing the star spangled banner. Reading about Ben Franklin, Sam Adams, and all the founding fathers. I love this country. My dream is to someday be a Mayor, then a Govenor, and maybe even a Senator. If I could I'd run for president. But hopefully one of my kids will have that honor. This is a great nation. It is a nation of immigrants. Immigration should be done legally. But for that, the laws must be just and workable. This nation grew and prospered the most when its arms were open, when it it was true to itself and to the principles upon which it was founded. This is the country that at its most famous point of entry states, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door." Emma Lazarus (written in 1903) Hopefully congress allow the US to be true to itself once again.

Now, questions? Comments? Flames? I'd love to know your thoughts!

[John317]

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Robert said:

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John317 said:

I don't see America as doing anything evil when it comes to the immigration problems we have in this country.

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Immigration laws have been systematically overlooked so that corporate America can profit off the backs of the poor. That's called exploitation and the last time I checked that's evil.

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Sounds like the Marxist, Leftist propaganda which I used to help spread as a member of the Young Socialist Alliance. Notice the loaded language: corporate America, profit off the backs of the poor, exploitation, evil, etc. Everyone knows that corporate America is evil, right? Who can support exploitation? Who doesn't feel sympathy for the poor? So of course no one would dare oppose the writer's view unless he's willing to be labeled as one who favors those horrible evils. That kind of language is often used by people who haven't thought through what they are talking about but are only repeating well-worn, vacuous phrases.

The truth is that it's OK for corporations to make profits. The Bible does not condemn a business for making money. That is why corporations are in business, after all. Look at what a little capitalism is doing for the hundreds of millions of Chinese whose Marxist economic system has failed miserably. Capitalism leaves people free to have a business and it allows the poor to get a job where they can work to put food on their tables and a roof over their heads, which they were unable to do in their own countries. The poor who come up from places like Mexico and South and Central America in order to get work here do not mind being "exploited"; in fact, that is why they come, to be exploited by those "evil" American corporations that the Marxists want to destroy but whose products and wealth they thoroughly enjoy.

My wife used to work in Mexico for less than $5.00 a day making bread and then about the same amount assembling chairs. She had to work hard. She sanded wood until her fingers bled. Finally she decided to be "exploited" across the border in the US. She started working in a factory that paid her $5.00 an hour and had great working conditions compared to those she had to work under in Mexico. You think she minded being "exploited" by "evil corporate America"?

Well, if she did, she must have liked it because she persuaded three of her sisters, two brothers, and several nephews and nieces to do the same thing. (They were all illegal at one time, but the two sisters and one of the brothers are now American citizens.)

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... we can be proud of because of its generosity and freedom. I don't see us as greedy. I see us as a nation of givers.

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I don't see "we" as equaling "corporate America"....Corporate America will the one whom eventually takes your 1st Amendment rights away. It's all about profit....

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According to Ellen White, the first Amendment will be taken away as a result of popular demand, not by "corporate America" forcing anything on the people. In other words, the politicians will give in to the demands of the masses. It won't be about profit but about change in the religious views and the political consciousness of the people, added to which will no doubt be all manner of catastrophies that will cause the people to change certain fundamental values related to freedom of religion and church/state relationships. Jim

[Paula]

I wanted to reply to a few statements I just read.

First of all the idea that hospitals are going out of business because of illegals. What everyone fails to state, is that there are millions of 3rd and 4th generation americans who had free schooling available to them. Who had scholarships, grants and financial aid available. Who speak the language fluently. And yet CHOSE not to work hard. Chose not to study hard. And CHOSE to live off of welfare. And their numbers far exceed the number of illegals in the country. But of course all the blame gets laid on the immigrants.

Secondly, Cyberguy, if they want to, ilegals CAN and DO pay taxes. For those who don't have Social Security cards, there are IT cards issued to illegals, which the IRS accepts for the payment of taxes. Several people at our church who don't have Social Securitys pay their taxes this way.

And finally, my husband just checked the mail and my greencard arrived!! Wohoo!!!!

[bonnie]

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CyberGuy said:

Bonnie

I think the border states such as California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas the problem is more severe.

Look at the protests. 500,000 mexicans crowd the streets of LA protesting this proposed law. Many Hispanics walked out of school in our area to prostest the proposed law.

I heard that half of the labor in LA is paid under the table at below than minimun wages to many of the illegals. This is lost in any taxes to the state to help pay for the benefits in schools nad health care for these people.

You have to look at the other side of this issue. The people who proposed this law although way to harsh IMO do have valid points.

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I have no problem believing what you say. What I have a problem with is people like Robert and his blanket statements, also underscoring the words of others as if that is where they put the emphasis. Also what comes across as his complete envy of others that have either more than he, whether it be ambition, money, or whatever.

Let those that have such disgust for material things get a rock for a pillow as Christ had, in fact I will find one for them.

Our problem in MN isn't so much illegals, altho we have them in truck farming, it is our generous welfare programs. We actually had welfare receipients protesting on the capitol steps that the requirements to work were against their civil rights. Mind you, it was a gradual transition, with generously subsidized day care, health benefits and housing, but protest they did. Training for a decent job was also included in this

There are many jobs I know that can be handled by the untrained, but not in some of the area's that Robert, ignorant as he is of some of the requirements is saying. There are those that are so bitterly envious they see any that have suceeded as crooks,or abusing those less fortunate than they. They could not possibly be honest and caring.

I do have a lot of compassion for those wishing to come hear for a better life. It would be great if they could all come. We can only absorb so many. Some seem to think there is a unlimited supply of resources available if only those filthy rich would let go of their money. Possible so. Then let's all get together. The filthy rich of all free countries, open your borders wide with us, let them all come, no restrictions,let go of your money,help us solve the problem. I am game if you are. Canada, get your rich to let go, release their excess, ALL OF IT, bring the illegals in, come on you AUSSIES, get your rich to let go of theirs. Release all of your excess.

To the last poster. I am sure there are many just like you. Many that need our help. For everyone just like you, there is one that isn't. One that doesn't belong here. He gets sick, he gets cared for, his child goes to our school etc.

America is a great land, not perfect for those that wish to rush in with a litany of our sins, but there must be something here that so many are coming, legal or otherwise. But, we cannot absorb all that wish to come.

Bonnie

[Paula]

Bonnie, you said that for every one like me, there is one that isn't. I disagree. I'd say its more like for every 50 like me, there is one that isn't. Of all the illegals I know, only 5 or 6 are the kind that you are describing.

[CyberGuy]

Bonnie

Let me make it clear that the Hispanic Families who live on our street are hardworking families. There is just so many of them in one house. Many years ago when I lived in an hispanic neighborhood we had 20 people living in a single two bedroom house. They had put plyboard in the attics and sleeping bags and pillows for them all to sleep on and a ladder to get to and from the attic.

Although I am sure it is not that bad in our neighborhood it still is far to crowded. The car situation makes it very bad. We had one of our hispanic neighbors who parks his car in front of our house all the time. His house has to many cars in the driveway and in front of it. It gets so that when we have guests there is no place for them to park in front of our housee for all the Hispanic cars taking up the parking from just two houses near us.

On my parents court they have one house with 8 to 10 cars. Evey spare place is taken up on the court for parking. They even are living in the shed out in the back yard. The neighbor right next to that house complains of the smell of urine wafting into her yard from that yard. To many people in that house and with only 2 bathrooms people cannot wait and go in the backyard.

This is one reason why there is such an uprising against the illegal immergration into this land. As you said. We just cannot support so many at one time. Our infrstructure of schools and medical care cannot support it either. If you go into the emergency roon you have to with six to 12 hours for care due to all the Hispanics crowding the waiting room. This makes the ire of the taxpayers go up when they are asked to foot the bill for the illegals medical care and schooling.

[bonnie]

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Paula said:

Bonnie, you said that for every one like me, there is one that isn't. I disagree. I'd say its more like for every 50 like me, there is one that isn't. Of all the illegals only 5 or 6 are the kind that you are describing.

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Paula,

The true numbers are something neither of us will probably ever know. I can well understand that from your point of view what you say is what you have personally seen. It is a little like me saying that all businessmen are like my husband or my brother. I know that isn't true. But in the reverse I know what Robert says is not true either, and from what he says I can tell at least from the businesses we are/were in he is not speaking from experience.

We tend to get a little jaded or a little positive depending on our experiences.

We recently had an experience with a mexican roofing crew, which turned out to be really interesting and kind of funny. Our town was hit by a terrific hail storm last fall and over 70% of the homes in our town had been damaged. I don't know how this family came to be here, they may even have been illegal at one time. They are not now as far as I know. The company we chose to do our work was really booked so they just now got to us. The sup called us on a Fri evening and kind of hemmed and hawed around about his schedule and finally spit out that he would really like to have his crew in here on a SUN. He apologized, saying he knew most went to church that day and didn't like it, but his crew went to church on SAT, but they were the best in the business. I had to laugh and told him no problem as I was SDA as well. He said he had never had that happen before. Later as were talking he said if he could have another crew like that he could really clean house. For Robert's education he is non-union and pays them above union scale to keep them.

Another contractor wouldn't hire an immigrant, legal or otherwise because of his experience with the ones he had previously hired. One will tell you they are the greatest employees around, the other will tell you they are worthless and all they want is a hand out, both are right based on their experience

Bonnie