Illegal Immigration=Colonisation in reverse

[Paula]

Hey Bonnie,

I agree with you. After all, legal or illegal, citizen, or not, these are all human beings. And there will be good ones and bad ones. There is just one thing I'd like to make clear, their is a big difference between mexican and central american immigrants and others. Unfortunatly, most of the immigrants coming from these countries are very poor, very simple, uneducated people. They do tend to live 20 to a house, etc.. etc.. But other immigrants, such as Brazilians, Argentenians, Irish, English, and other Europeans, and yes, even Canadians and Aussies, tend to be a different bunch altogether. We have a few illegal English friends. But again, the farther away you get from illegals from certain countries, such as Mexico, Haiti, Central American countries, etc.. the more you find people who grow and prosper. Who pay taxes, and buy homes, and live as much like americans as possible (considering the circumstances). Those are the kinds of illegals we have "en mass" in S. Florida, so I can't relate to all the talks of urine in backyards, and 8-10 cars in the driveway (unless its my very American neighbor. When her grown kids come over for holidays, and birthdays, and on weekends, they park in her driveway, and all along the front of my house and even block my garage!!). But overall, we are talking about very different immigrants, remember, not all are Mexicans.

[CyberGuy]

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Those are the kinds of illegals we have "en mass" in S. Florida, so I can't relate to all the talks of urine in backyards, and 8-10 cars in the driveway (unless its my very American neighbor. When her grown kids come over for holidays, and birthdays, and on weekends, they park in her driveway, and all along the front of my house and even block my garage!!). But overall, we are talking about very different immigrants, remember, not all are Mexicans.

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Granted I am talking about mainly Mexicans immergrants when I described these situations. Yes they are poor and because of so many coming in it has drive up the houseing to way out of reach. $420,000 for a simple four bedroom two bathroom 1700 sqare foot house. Four or more mexican families go in together to buy a house. There is laws saying only one family per house but when questioned these families say these are only guests. The laws do not state how long Guests can stay so this is a loophole they use to get around the law.

This problem has only become more apparent in the last 10 to 20 years. Each year it gets worse as housing costs go up and up through the roof. Supply and demand. More demand by increased population and limited affordable housing.

[Paula]

Hi CyberGuy!

Just trying to understand your last post. Are you saying that houses now cost 420K BECAUSE of illegal mexicans? That doesn't make any sense.

Also, here is something from the Immigrant Workers Forum. It talks about the need for more foreign workers in the US over the next several years. mmigrant workers are vital to our nation’s economic prospects. According to the most comprehensive study ever done on immigrants by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), immigrants and their children bring long-term economic benefits to the United States. They pay taxes and support social security. They fill positions where willing or qualified U.S. workers are unavailable. Immigrants add up to $10 billion each year to the U.S. economy.

Immigrant workers helped create the economic boom of the 1990s and are essential to our economic recovery and future growth. We must preserve our tradition of welcoming immigrant workers or, as President Bush says, "match willing workers with willing employers." If our leaders eschew this mandate, the U.S. economy will stagnate.

The U.S. Is Not Producing Enough New Workers. The U.S. Department of Labor projects that by 2010, the U.S. will create 22 million new jobs—nine million more jobs than new workers entering the job market. Beyond 2010, as the "baby boom" generation retires, the deficit of workers is likely to grow worse. More than 60 million current employees will likely retire over the next 30 years. After 2011, the year in which the first baby boomers turn 65, their retirement rates will reach proportions so huge that, barring substantial increases in immigration and/or participation rates among the elderly, there will be a net reduction in the total size of the nation’s workforce.

Immigrant Workers Help Fill the Job Gap. When labor markets are tight, as they were in the late 1990s, immigration provides employers with an important source of workers, helping to ensure that growth is not stunted by a labor force deficit. Of course, there are other steps that employers can take (and are taking), such as trying to encourage older workers to remain longer in the workforce. However, as Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has said, "there is an effective limit to new hiring, unless immigration is uncapped." As America’s workforce ages, and the baby boomers retire, immigrants will play an essential role in reducing a long-term projected labor shortage.

[bonnie]

Just to make something clear here. I am not biased towards mexicans, unless maybe in a positive sense I have two very special mexican DIL's and four totally perfect beautiful 1/2 mexican grandchildren.

I guess I get a little tired of seeing things that read however tactfully and sometimes not so tactfully said that maybe america is getting it's just rewards for all it's sins.

Or the litany of sins Robert likes to lob at those he has no knowledge of whatsoever.

We have our sins, more of them than I would like to know about, but we seem to have more that want to come here and join us in our sins than want to go to any other "purer" country on earth.

We are the ones that have to foot the bill, listen to the continual critism, get the slap in the face, the why can't you do better for us routine. It is a little like asking someone to dinner and they whine and complain thru everything you serve, yet keep coming back for seconds. Complaining about your greed, while dishing up thirds and fourth helpings. Shaking their pious finger at you for not giving more to the poor, shame on you for driving you new chevy, while they drive away in a 50,000.00 car still complaining about the quality of their free dinner

It gets tiresome and you start to lose sight of the fact that there are those that do work hard, need a helping hand and a lift up so they can be on their way

[CyberGuy]

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Just trying to understand your last post. Are you saying that houses now cost 420K BECAUSE of illegal mexicans? That doesn't make any sense

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I am not saying this is the ONLY cause. I am saying it does add to the problem.

As to the labor problem you mentioned. One solution to the social security problem is to raise the retirement age to 72. Studies show that if we do that then Social security will not go bankrupt. Also it will help with the labor issue as well. I think once we get a democrat in the white house this will be the proposal. Raise the retirement age from 65 to 72 and the max Benefits from 70 to 75. This will not be propular but it is a solution I can live with.

[Lauralea]

Wow Paula that is incredible. I know I had a friend from Poland with a legal visa some airline forgot to tell her needed to be stamped. She was in premed and almost got kicked out of the country on her return. Instead they fined the airlines 10,000 and let her in. The other agents couldn't believe they let her in- they told her so. It sounds like a beaurocracy with too much power. I work with people who are all legal- our company is careful for legal reasons- but I know of others who are not. I work in the San Joaquin Valley and there are a lot of farmworkers here. They have an adult education school here that is one of the biggest in the country and teaches hundreds of people English a year. I have given health classes there.

As you said, there are different subgroups. My secretary is from El Salvador and doesn't like to go back on vacation because of the gangs. So it is a big, complex problem. The system is broken and the beaurocracy isn't solving it. At the same time they need both a more realistic immigration policy and maybe computer linkups with other countries so practicing gangbangers are not allowed in. And who knows how many can come in realistically? It all needs to be worked out. They thought the Senate had worked out a compromise- now they say it is too expensive, but they really need a solution. You maybe should write someone, you express yourself very well, but I know your situation is sensitive. Maybe someday you can work as an advocate. Laura

[Dr. Shane]

Quite honestly, Paula, you ought to admit that you are so close to the issue that you cannot step back and take a look at the big picture. That doesn't mean your opinion isn't valued, just that it isn't going to encompass the entire spectrum of the issue. If you were here in 1986, as it sounds like, you should have gotten ammenesty then.

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[immirgrants] are not the disease-infested, criminals that Shane would have you believe them to be.

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Isn't interesting that in the Senate compromise illegal immergrants will have to pass a health screening and two criminal background checks?

Illegals are a huge cost to hospitals and to our school systems. I don't know if any hospitals have went out of business due to them but it wouldn't surprise me. Despite that I still believe we need to give medical treatment to illegals and doctors shouldn't be asking for papers.

[Dr. Shane]

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I heard that half of the labor in LA is paid under the table at below than minimun wages to many of the illegals.

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Don't believe everything you hear and only half of what you see. Here in south Texas there are illegals that earn less than minimum wage but they are not paid by any company. They are live-in maids that clean and perform childcare. They make anywhere from $75 to $150/week which is below minimum which is just above $200/week for 40 hours.

However in I know illegals in California that are earning $300/week for the same services. California has a much higher cost of living and labor is more expensive there.

[bonnie]

I somehow naively mistakenly thought that welfare receipients, immigrants that were still receiving government help, and any that were subsidized in any way medically somehow got a reduced rate being the government picked up the tab. Joke was on me.

The cost has to be astronomical. Considering all that receive even one time, a short time or long term medical aide, prescriptions paid for by the government you really have to wonder just how long it can go on.

My recent experience with the druggist quickly dispelled any foolish idea I had. When I had no insurance it fell to 150.00. Now that I have chosen a Medicare Part D prescription plan, paid for by the government, the cost is back up to 326.00 compliments of all of you, and I pay 15.00.

Had another little shocker when my hsuband went on medicare. Medicare by itself is quite a good deal for the money. We pay I believe it is 78.00 a month and they pay 80% of all medical except prescription. You then should pick up a supplemental policy for the other 20%. Not to bad, RIGHT. Wrong again.

I had paid 120.00 a month for 100% coverage after a small deductable, prescription coverage included. For the supplemental with no precsription coverage and 20% coverage I now pay 160.00. I pay an additional 25.00 a month thru SS for the prescription coverage. I don't mind what we pay for medicare and the prescription plan, but it rankles me no end what I pay the insurance company for 20% coverage. Something is wrong with that math to me.

Something has to give somewhere. The welfare rolls by itself are staggering, more and more are coming across the borders. It will not fall from the trees like manna

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[Robert]

Illegals are used for selfish ambition, period!

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

....[you are] so consumed with envy towards those that have more than you, whether it be ambition, money, education or whatever.

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1 Tim 5:7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich [i.e., who are not content with having just "food and clothing"] fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Gal 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition....

[Robert]

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John317 said:

Sounds like the Marxist, Leftist propaganda which I used to help spread as a member of the Young Socialist Alliance. Notice the loaded language: corporate America, profit off the backs of the poor, exploitation, evil, etc.

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It's based on agape love, not Marxism. So you are wrong.

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The truth is that it's OK for corporations to make profits. The Bible does not condemn a business for making money.

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It is based on "self-seeking", which the Bible condemns as "selfish ambition".

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Finally she decided to be "exploited" across the border in the US. She started working in a factory that paid her $5.00 an hour and had great working conditions compared to those she had to work under in Mexico. You think she minded being "exploited" by "evil corporate America"?

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Did she do it legally, or did she selfishly put Americans out of jobs so the greedy, corporate machine could make zillions?

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According to Ellen White, the first Amendment will be taken away as a result of popular demand, not by "corporate America" forcing anything on the people. In other words, the politicians will give in to the demands of the masses.

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Man...you need to get out way more than you do! This country is run by corporations who send their "lobbyist" to Washington to bribe our so-called "servants of the people" into seeing things their way.

Over the years employees have been systemically losing their rights to employment. Since "greed" has demanded that people works 24 hrs 7 days a week, then those who insist on certain days off (as in the Sabbath) are going against the corporate grain. Their business is profit....When you interfere with that, well, your rights must go. Who are you kidding?

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

Let those that have such disgust for material things get a rock for a pillow as Christ had, in fact I will find one for them.

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Now aren't you glad that you are not "under law", but rather "under grace"? All of us are self-seeking, but unless "greed" is controlled (as in immigration laws) this nation will come to destruction long before its time.

Communism has failed! Why? Man is not selfish by his environment...no, he is selfish BY NATURE. Capitalism is next for it is based on "self-seeking".

Again, as long as this "self-seeking" is administered fairly for everyone, it will erode more slowly. But in todays climate bloodshed is soon to come! Who said that? James:

James 4:1 What causes wars [bloodshed], and what causes fightings among you?

Answer:

Don’t they come from your lusts that war in your members?

2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder

You covet and kill [i.e., coveting leads to bloodshed], but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

What does James mean by "the world"?

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh [James calls it, "your lusts that war in your members"] and the lust of the eyes [i.e., what I see I want] and the boastful pride of life [look at what love of self has produced for me], is not from the Father, but is from the world....

Anyway, so as not to "hijack" this post to the issue of "self-seeking" [which is the root problem of everything], let me reemphasize what I have already stated:

[:"red"]As long as this "self-seeking" is administered fairly for everyone, it will erode more slowly.[/]

Who "administrates" this? Our Government! They are the ones, because of Corporate greed, that has allowed immigration laws to be looked over....Everyone loses!

Rob

[bonnie]

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1 Tim 5:7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But

if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.

9 People who want to get rich [i.e., who are not content with having just "food and clothing"] fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people,

eager for money

, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Gal 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage,

selfish ambition....

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Well Robert most of what I see here could describe you. Was that your intent, or was it to condemn those you don't know again?

Are you content with just working for food and clothing? If not, does that mean you want to get rich? Are you going to be able to be saved from that path of ruin and destruction you have fallen into if you are not content with just food and clothing?

Who has wandered from the faith?? Have you sold that expensive car that you were so proud of yet??? I am still driving my 8 year old chevy cavalier. Was that part of Robert's selfish ambition?? Seems fairly certain you still have your computer, that does not fall under the heading of just food and clothing and certainly is not necessary. Part of Robert's selfish ambition again??? Part of his got to have, got to have?????

Just think of the poor you could help feed

Do you know what prompts others to work harder at their craft than you apparantly do?? That which you call selfish ambition?? I realize there are some so consumed with envy that will classify a parent that works hard to provide more than food and clothing for his children as greedy and selfish, but most understand differently. You bring them into this world, they are your number one priority. Feed, clothe, care for, educate to the best of your ability, and what is best for them.

This has what to do with the topic under discussion.....

Robert said...

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition....[/

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

Well Robert most of what I see here could describe you.

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Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be shut, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Why?

20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin [i.e., self-seeking, self-love, etc.]

Yes...the law tells me that no matter what, I am falling short of God's love. If you have eyes the same is true of you....

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Are you content with just working for food and clothing?

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No...and neither are you! But...I'm content with my life. I am not striving for more and more and more. I guess that's God working in me....

At the same time if I lose it all I, by the grace of God, will not put a knife in someone's back to promote myself up the corporate ladder. I hate the idea of competition....So a Christian, although still technically a sinner, should grow....

Our Nation/Government claims to be Christian. Illegal immigration is not about Christianity...it is about greed and exploitation.

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Have you sold that expensive car that you were so proud of yet??? I am still driving my 6 year old Chevy cavalier.

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Yes...as a matter of fact I have. I sold my MR2 Spyder.... I've downsized to a 1989 [17 year old] Toyota Camry with 179,000 miles. Thanks for asking....But that want get me any points with the law....Maybe its growth?

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Just think of the poor you could help feed

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You are right....Boy I am glad that I am not judged by my works of the law. You too might be happy, huh?

However, God wants to hold "the wages of sin" back. So our self-seeking needs to be controlled with checks and balances. This is God's purpose in placing governments into power. When they become corrupt we all pay....

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You bring them into this world, they are your number one priority. Feed, clothe, care for, educate to the best of your ability, and what is best for them.

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Sinners love their own....The Bible says, "whoopee...even sinners love those who love them." Just a thought.

Again I stand by my statement:

"As long as this 'self-seeking' is administered fairly for everyone, it [our nation] will erode more slowly."

Rob

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

This [selfish ambition] has what to do with the topic under discussion.....?

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Again:

As long as this "self-seeking" is administered fairly for everyone [through our Government], it will erode more slowly.

Remember, "the wages of sin [self-seeking] is death." When sin is permitted to abound with no limits, death and bloodshed are soon to follow.

Immigration is not the whole of the problem, it is just a part of it. The problem is Washington...they make the rules....They must be fair and practice justice.

"Righteousness [justly administrating laws] exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people."

[bonnie]

Robert,

Tell me, why do you keep hammering so obseessively on this?? Have you seen anywhere that I or anyone has said that we can work our way to heaven?? Never have thought it, not once. I don't need you to tell me. I learned that from parents that understood that biblical fact long before you were born. But OTH, they did not use it as an excuse at every turn to condemn, and ridicule everyone else.or to do as they jolly well pleased well announcing to the world, "See, I am not under the law", as some people do

As I believe that I am older than you, I understood long before you that the law states we all fall short of God's love. Again, I had parents that had a pretty firm grasp of scripture before you came along to straighten everyone out.

Of course I am not content to just work for food and clothing, but I am not the one piously lecturing everyone as often as I can. You are, every opportunity and as frequently as possible. But yes, you are striving for more and more if you continue to work beyond what is required for food and clothing.

I would not put a knife in anyone's back if I lost all either. neither would my brother. In fact I lost all once. Had to start from ground zero with the third baby due in 6 weeks and no insurance to cover our loss. I didn not knife anyone as a result,

Competition, you compete every day of your life. If you are obsessed by it, as some are,yup, you have a problem. If you cheat, lie, steal to compete to get ahead of the other guy, no brainer, if you are ENVIOUS ,CONSUMED by jealousy of those willing to work harder than you to get ahead, that is just as bad, isn't it Robert?????

The definition and answer to illegal iigration does not rest with Robert. Illegal immigration is a problem in a lot of area's

But I don't think when I read about it the headlines declared immigration to be about the problems with christianity. Maybe I missed that segment. Or, maybe it is Robert putting his official stamp on it again.

Glad to hear you sold your car. Can you point me in the direction of any post of mine that has the barest suggestion that says I would be judged by my works?? Lacking that could you be honest enough to explain why you are always throwing statements like that around to make it sound like the person you are addressing believe that. You are basically dishonest when you do that. And I believe you are deliberately being dishonest.

[Robert]

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Robert said:

"Righteousness [justly administrating laws] exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people."

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Since labor laws do not govern illegals, law-breaking employers can and do pay them much less. This puts American citizens out of jobs -especially those already bordering on poverty. The problem is our Government doesn't enforce legal immigration, which produces poverty.

I have a Chinese friend at work that came through the proper channels of immigration. It took him 4 years....He had to learn America History...he had too speak and write English. Then he had to wait in line!

These illegals do none of that....They jump in front of others....That shouldn't be rewarded by our Government, because in doing it is practicing favoritism, which the Bible denounces.

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

Tell me, why do you keep hammering so obseessively on this??

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Because Adventists obsessively talk of their so-called law keeping. I'm just trying to open their eyes....

Again, let's get back to the problem. Our Government needs to make it fair for everyone in their ambition to get things....When it overlooks laws, intended to bring checks and balances to excessive greed, then that nation brings destruction on itself....

[Paula]

Shane,

Yes, I have been here since 1980. My mother was legalized in 1986. Because of mistakes made by INS (losing our files, etc.. etc..) he didn't get his legalization until 1997. I just got my greencard in the mail last night. My work permit came in August of 2005. That means that of the 27 years I've been here, I've spent 26 illegaly. Of my mothers 27 years here, she spent 7 years illegaly! Why this disparity (especially since I came as child, made no personal decision to come here ilegally, etc...)?? Because of the incompetence of INS.

As for the health screening, Shane, people who come here on toursim visas DO NOT have to get screened. At least they don't have to if they come from Brazil and Europe (my husbands sister is a citizen of Switzerland and has been here several times, she and her family have never had to get a health screening). So why isn't the US screening everyone who comes here? And again, Americans get diseases too. And need I remind you that Millions of US citizens live off of welfare and use and abuse medicade/medicare and hospital emergency rooms. And their numbers are much much larger than the numbers of illegals in here.

[Paula]

Bonnie,

Like you I cannot stand immigrants bashing America. I always say that it is the same as going to someones home and them complaining that it is not to your likeing. What I AM critizing is the INS, and the unnavigatable laws and procedures. They are indecently incompetent. They lose files, mismanage, and if that weren't enough, there are corrupt officers who bump people off the list to sell greencards to people who have no case (what probably happened to my case in at least one instance). I also hold the media to a higher standard because it is an area that I know a little bit about. I cannot stand it when I see journalists expressing opinions rather than looking at the laws and finding the cause for people coming illegaly and reporting on the FACTS. I can't stand it when people say, "well these laborers should have come legally like everyone else, but they chose not too." When, if they studied the laws, they would see that you CANNOT come legally if you are a nanny, or a construction worker, or a janitor, etc... You CAN come legally if you are a nurse, IT worker, engineer, wealthy student, etc.. So to say that people had an option to come legally but chose not to is a lie. And the country didn't pass laws to allow laborers to come legally because our elected leaders knew they would come anyways (illegaly). So they could sit there and say, "oh no, people are coming illegaly, they shouldn't do that, we are outraged!" That way, they wouldn't ruffle any feathers, and would still have the cheap labor (without having any actual responsibilty towards said laborers. Any journalist worth his weight could find this out and report on it. But they don't. Because they too want to give the American public the impression, the illusion, that this was all the fault of the illegals. That the leaders were just overwhelmed by these people and couldn't control them. Its a lie. And so I do call the media out. But I agree that America is an amazing country. That there is no country like it in the world. And I love it with all my heart. Even though I have been an illegal my whole life, I love it as my own, and feel in my heart that this is my country (because this is the only country I've ever known, having lived here since I was 3). So when I critize I don't do so as an outsider because this is all I've ever known.

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

Of course I am not content to just work for food and clothing....

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And hence you and I are falling short of God's agape love. We are self-seeking, which according to Paul is breaking the law because "love...is not self-seeking."

But Paul also brings practical Christianity into play when he says, "Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others."

It is in everyone's interest if immigration laws are followed. This will keep poorer Americans employed and illegals, once becoming legal, will have the same rights to labor laws.

Rob

[Paula]

Lauralea,

Thank you for the kind words. I was in contact with a local congressman a few years ago, and he has expressed an interest in perhaps having me in to speak to some of his collegues, and possibly even testify at some point. Its been about 3 years though, so I don't know at this point if it will pan out or not.

And CyberGuy,

I, like you, hope we have a Democrat in the white house soon. However, I don't think raising the retirenment age would be a good move. As for the fee thing (I think you were the one who complained that you paid the INS fees, and illegals don't), if the legislation goes through, they WILL be paying fees. I paid $2,000 at the time of application, then another $3,000 (for my husband and I) in January of 2005. Not to mention the $5,000 in lawyers fees, plus medical fees (for exams), and pictures, etc.. etc..

As for the expense of the processing all these people (if the legislation goes through), they could charge $5,000 per person, and people would still pay! At 12million (at least), you do the math... it should fund itself.

[Robert]

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And need I remind you that Millions of US citizens live off of welfare and use and abuse medicade/medicare and hospital emergency rooms.

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This is just making an excuse of illegals....They sin so why can't I?

Rob

[bonnie]

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Robert said:

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bonnie said:

Tell me, why do you keep hammering so obseessively on this??

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Because Adventists obsessively talk of their so-called law keeping. I'm just trying to open their eyes....

Again, let's get back to the problem. Our Government needs to make it fair for everyone in their ambition to get things....When it overlooks laws, intended to bring checks and balances to excessive greed, then that nation brings destruction on itself....

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Our government is powerless to make it fair for everyone "to get things" That is a ludicrous statement.

Granted the immigration laws are a mess, but even if they weren't, life is not fair and never will be. No one ever promised you it would be that I know of. The pursuit of certain things should be, but the human factor is so variable, even that depends on so many factors there is no gurantee of anything.

One works harder than the next. One is willing to take a bigger chance, one waits for that one big break to come to him and whines when it doesn't. One honestly tries and for some reason fails. Some like my husband and brother are willing to work 11 hour days 6 days a week to own their own business, others are jealous of them and call them greedy because they want to work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day and be sucessful.

Some come to this country, work unbelievably hard and make it far surpassing their american peers. Others come to this country looking for and expecting that american handout.

Life isn't fair and the government can't make it fair. Look at communism and see just how fair it turned out.

We will never have any viewpoint in common so this is really an exercise in futility. Jack Sequeria is not my hero and does nnot have the last final word on the gospel to me, so will leave you to chatter on about the sinful,greedy, sucessful,lawkeeping adventists willing to work their way to heaven as you go thru life doing as you please content and secure in the knowledge nothing is required of you.