Illegal Immigration=Colonisation in reverse

[bonnie]

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Paula said:

Bonnie,

Like you I cannot stand immigrants bashing America. I always say that it is the same as going to someones home and them complaining that it is not to your liking. What I AM critizing is the INS, and the unnavigatable laws and procedures. They are indecently incompetent. They lose files, mismanage, and if that weren't enough, there are corrupt officers who bump people off the list to sell greencards to people who have no case (what probably happened to my case in at least one instance). I also hold the media to a higher standard because it is an area that I know a little bit about. I cannot stand it when I see journalists expressing opinions rather than looking at the laws and finding the cause for people coming illegaly and reporting on the FACTS. I can't stand it when people say, "well these laborers should have come legally like everyone else, but they chose not too." When, if they studied the laws, they would see that you CANNOT come legally if you are a nanny, or a construction worker, or a janitor, etc... You CAN come legally if you are a nurse, IT worker, engineer, wealthy student, etc.. So to say that people had an option to come legally but chose not to is a lie. And the country didn't pass laws to allow laborers to come legally because our elected leaders knew they would come anyways (illegaly). So they could sit there and say, "oh no, people are coming illegaly, they shouldn't do that, we are outraged!" That way, they wouldn't ruffle any feathers, and would still have the cheap labor (without having any actual responsibilty towards said laborers. Any journalist worth his weight could find this out and report on it. But they don't. Because they too want to give the American public the impression, the illusion, that this was all the fault of the illegals. That the leaders were just overwhelmed by these people and couldn't control them. Its a lie. And so I do call the media out. But I agree that America is an amazing country. That there is no country like it in the world. And I love it with all my heart. Even though I have been an illegal my whole life, I love it as my own, and feel in my heart that this is my country (because this is the only country I've ever known, having lived here since I was 3). So when I critize I don't do so as an outsider because this is all I've ever known.

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I have come to the point I cannot tolerate the media, any of it.

Generally speaking most situations like this could be straightended out rather quickly if it was not committeeded to death first. Never seems to get out of committee. They first need to appoint a second committee to scrutinize the first committee.

When the media sets it's mind to a cause that is important and wants to expose something that is horrible wrong and corrupt they seem to be able to do so. Funny they don't seem to be able to d it in this case.

Just for the voting block it would produce it is surprising some enterprising politician hasn't carried the ball on this one. I am sure one will get around to it, just surprises me it hasn't happened sooner

Bonnie

[Robert]

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bonnie said:

Our government is powerless to make it fair for everyone "to get things" That is a ludicrous statement.

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Some get more toys than others....The issue is to have a level playing field. No favoritism....If our nation practices this it will fall!

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We will never have any viewpoint in common so this is really an exercise in futility.

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Yes...every time I post you come in jabbing. That is your right, but I firmly believe you are deceived on this issue of God's love. You, like so many, put human attributes on to God. That is perverting the gospel...

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Jack Sequeria is not my hero

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He's a man of God....Too bad, you could learn if you read his material. Your loss...

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...as you go thru life doing as you please content and secure in the knowledge nothing is required of you.

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I will grow, but not based on your ideas....If you make one rule for me, than you must keep all the rules. So don't go there....

Back to immigration....

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

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Shane, people who come here on toursim visas DO NOT have to get screened.

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I imagine there are two reasons for this. 1. They will not be here that long and as a result will not come into contact with as many people. 2. (most important) If the US requires health screenings of other countries for a tourist visa, many of those countries will require health screenings for US citizens traveling abroad.

[Dr. Shane]

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What I AM critizing is the INS, and the unnavigatable laws and procedures. They are indecently incompetent. They lose files, mismanage, and if that weren't enough, there are corrupt officers who bump people off the list to sell greencards to people who have no case (what probably happened to my case in at least one instance).

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That is why I am for small government. Government is a necesary evil and the smaller it is the better. I think it was President Reagon that said, As government expands individual liberty shrinks.

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As for the expense of the processing all these people (if the legislation goes through), they could charge $5,000 per person, and people would still pay! At 12million (at least), you do the math... it should fund itself.

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If a private company like American Express was handling all these cases I am sure this would be correct. Since INS will be doing it I doubt the $5K each will even cover half the cost.

[Paula]

Robert,

My intent in pointing out the millions of Americans on welfare was not to excuse the illegals who do it. But in the immigration debate people accuse illegals of being responsible for the troubles with welfare and of using the hospital system while being uninsured.

The fact of the matter (and the point I was getting to) is that in proportion to the amount of US Citizens on welfare and Uninsured US Citizens who use the hospital systems, those 11 millon illegals (not all of whom use hospitals, and who do NOT have access to welfare since you must prove legal Residency to get it) are a drop in the bucket. Yes they are overwhelming in states like California and Arizona and certain parts of Texas where there are huge numbers of illegal from Mexico (agian, I am not ragging on Mexincas. Most who come are very poor and with very little instruction and/or education, so they do tend to need more aid, etc). But if you look at the numbers NATIONWIDE, you'll find that it is hardly drop in the bucket. So it DOES bother me that the media pins welfare (which illegals are NOT eligible for, and CANNOT get access to) and uninsured medical needs on Illegals when the reality is that the overwhelming majority (by a landslide) of users are in fact, poor Americans. And in the case of uninsured americans (45 million strong as of 2004), there is a 4 to 1 ratio (between them and illegals).

[Neil D]

I am of the opinion that there are a lot of myths being discussed here that are assumed to be facts when they are only myths and bias....

And I am saying this only to show the disparity between posts like Paulas [which I appreciate very much] and some others who claim or infer that the illegals are a major burden and are using up our welfare system when in fact they make very little use of the system in the first place. The same could be said of the contributions to the Social Security moneys that are paid in by illegals that are NOT being claimed. And just how much is being paid by farmers/employers "under the table" to illegals who do not pay those SS, medicare, ect taxes that are necessary to fund those systems.

Is there any leg work in this area that someone would like to provide?

[Dr. Shane]

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And just how much is being paid by farmers/employers "under the table" to illegals who do not pay those SS, medicare, ect taxes that are necessary to fund those systems.

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I would say it is very insignificant. Few employers are going to pay their employees cash because if they do they have to report that money as profit and pay taxes on it. The only ones I am aware of working for cash are those working in private homes as maids and nannies.

These illegals are paying into Social Security and are also having payroll taxes withheld and they cannot file for a tax return when they are working with a stolen Social Security number.

[Neil D]

[:"green"] This is a summary from the Center for Immagration Studies. It is characterized by the following statement of who they are-

Who We Are

The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985. It is the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States.

Our Mission

It is the Center's mission to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted. [/]

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.

Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.

Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.

The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.

The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

[:"green"] To view more of the summary, you can click here and see more information, ie how the study was done and other sumations from the study. [/]

[bonnie]

Obviously Neil has never farmed. You do every thing you can legally do to reduce you net income, that means deducting everything that will reduce that. Wages paid to someone is included. You are not going to the expense of hiring someone, then paying tax on it as income as well. Farmers are far from stupid people. They are not paying out twice when once will suffice.

I am sure there are those that hire nanny's just because they want someone handy to take care of their children, but for those that work, they would be utter fools to pay a nanny cash and to forgo that deduction.

Most people are pretty cautious nowdays when it comes to nanny care. They demand a pretty high salary with all the trimmings.

No doub there are area's in this field that skim by with cheap illegal labor, but again if the employee was legal or took the steps to become legal they would suddenly find themselves able to locate a very lucrative position. Even those without a degree in child care do quite well

Bonnie

[Paula]

Hey Niel,

Thanks for posting the study. Like I said, in South Florida the immigrant landscape is very different. Most business owners, doctors, lawyers, realtors, mortgage brokers, even politicians are in fact immigrants (legal, and Illegal.. except for the politicians, doctors and dentists... though some do operate without US licenses). In our church we have illegal aliens who own their own businesses and 1million dollar homes (one family per home Shane). Most own homes in the 350-600K range (which is the going rate in South Florida. The ones with less income tend to own condo's in the 130-280K range. This is pretty much the norm for immigrants (illegal and legal) in Florida. With the exception of the Haitian population (for the asme reason as the Mexicans... poor, uneducated). We have almost no mexicans here. There are an estimated one million illegals from Ireland in America. I doubt they live here under the circumstance presented in this study. If they did, they would return to Europe, where, under the EU they can immigrate legally to other countries within the union. They wouldn't subject themselves to living here illegaly if they were making 10,000 per month. Same goes for the estimated 500,000 canadians, and Englishmen, and nationals from other European Countries.

But again, I'd like to see those numbers compared to the welfare and hospital use by Americans. People who are able bodied, who had the benefit of free schooling, college options, who can work legally, and who chose not to. I think if those numbers were posted, there would be a much bigger disparity between the taxes paid by these Americans, and the amount they take out of the system. But no one mentions that, because they have a great scapegoat in the form of illegals. If all illegals were deported, then what excuse would many give for not working? They wouldn't be able to pin it on the undocumented for taking their jobs. And the US would have to reexamine its welfare system and get people working. Don't get me wrong, I think that some people DO need government help, and I am all for it. But many do not. I think that to have a vaild conversation on this subject we need to compare where the money is really going.

Also, once people are documented, they will not remain stagnant. They will better themselves, and open companies, and contribute. This study assumes that after becoming legal, these people will stay at the same jobs earning the same amounts. Most people, upon getting their greencards, leave their old jobs behind and get better jobs with better compensation. Or they open their own companies. They go to community college, etc... We have several teachers at our church, several lawyers, and engineers, computer specialists, etc.. who are working construction jobs, and cleaning houses, and being nannies because they are illegal. They make 80-120 dollars per house they clean, $20.00 an hour being nannies, etc... Construction guys get paid around $1,000.00 per month. But if they were legal, they would take out licenses, do extra courses, do whatever was necessary to work in their field of choice. One other thing, our church is generates one of the biggest tithes for the SDA church in the whole state of Florida. We will be moving into a 1.5 million dollar church in the middle of the year. Its almost completely paid for. I believe (based on my experiences) that when legalized, most illegals will make an even better life for themselves and their families, thus providing more taxes, and using less aid.

[bonnie]

Paula,

The reason you see little said concerning the able bodied welfare receipient is that is almost a protected species in this country. There are those that need our help and should receive more of it, but can't because so many are receiving it that need to be kicked off.

For a time my husband worked for HUD and you don't even want to get me started on the abuses in that program. The families on welfare where the men laid on the couch drinking beer while my husband painted their homes, not once but going back year after year. As each of these welfare families moved out, my husband along with others had to go in and completely redo to make it livable for the next welfare family to trash.

This wasn't a few times but par for the course.

Bonnie

[Paula]

Just clarifying a mistake up there... that should have read, "the construction guys make an average of $1,000 a week... not a month. I tried to edit it, but my time to edit had expired...

[Dr. Shane]

Shane was only stating the obvious. There is a reason that potential jurers are disqualified from being in a jury. If a person has been raped or had a family member that was raped they will not be allowed to serve in a jury for the trial of an accused rapist. They are too close to the issue to have an objective view. However that doesn't mean that their view about rape is not valuable but it certainly will be slanted.

I am married to an immirgrant. I, myself, hired the lawyer to get her a visa to come to the US (We met in her country where I was working as a missionary). I live along the Mexican border and work in construction management. I have been an elder of a hispanic church in Texas. I don't claim to be an expert in immirgration but as far as an average person goes, I suspect I know more about it than most.

[Paula]

Shane,

I think its fair to say that no one can see the big picture. You see one side of the issue, and I can see another. It is the coming together of all sides of an issue that begin to paint a true picture. You do not have all the truth. But maybe you have a unique perspective. That of an American, who brought someone to the US legally. Obviously the system worked for you.

It did not work for me, nor for many people I know. One of my best friends has a mother and father who are both US Citizens. Her sister and brother-in-law are US Citizens. She applied 8 years ago for status under the 245I law. This law in effect, allows you to change status while remaining in the US. It does NOT however, issue you a work permit, nor any kind of LEGAL way to stay in the US. She thought the process would be quick. At the time she applied she had already been here for about 6 years on a student visa. When her student visa expired, she figured the filing (through her sister) meant she was ok to stay (since the law stated she could wait in the US). Guess what. It will be another 8 years or so before she will even be issued a WORK PERMIT. Thats 16 years! In the mean time, even though she paid the $2,000 fee, even though she has a letter from INS stating that her application was accepted, that same letter states that it does not protect her from possible deportation if she is caught. I know because I got the same letter 8 years ago. Add to that the fact that in 1996 a law was passed that states that if you overstay a visa by more than 6 months you have to stay out of the country for 10 years (even if you are issued a greencard, you can't re-enter until the 10 years have passed!). This is why no one opts to leave the country to wait in their homeland for their papers. The government has created a catch 22 with RIDICULOUS laws. Many, many many illegals are here under these circumstances. Circumstances created by congress. And then Congress, and people like you want to label these people as Criminals?!?!?!? Who are the criminals here? Is it people like my friend, or is it these laws that state, "pay this fee, and you can wait for your green card here", oh, "but don't let us catch you, cause then you'll be deported". "And by the way, if you leave VOLUNTARILY and decide to wait for your papers in your country, you'll have to stay outside for ten years" (by which time her VERY AMERICAN son will be 18, and will have been forced to grow up outside of HIS country). This is a travesty. And the media does not talk about it. And you, claim to know the issues, but you don't talk about it. Because you do not know ALL sides of the issue. I am sorry if it sounds like I am upset, but I am tired of people who know only bits and pieces of what immigration is, people who live by soundbites spouted by the religious right, and conservative republicans, trying to say that they know what immigration is. You don't. It is unfair. It is a travesty. And it is an embarrasement to this great nation. If more Americans knew about these laws, they would see why so many people are protesting on the streets. Millions of people filed for their greencards prior to January 17th, 1998 (when the 245I law expired). This law stated that if you had a relative, or a sponsor, or an employer, WHATEVER means of becoming legal, you would file under 245I, and it would give you the right to change your status AND to remain in the US while you awaited for your papers without penalty. But because of the limited number of VISAS issued per year, and the incompetence of the system, you have millions of people sitting around waiting for thier green cards. And instead of issuing work permits, or some form of temporary legalization for these people while they waited (under this law), the government said, "no". "Just wait UNDOCUMENTED". "If we catch you, your out of here". "But you took my $2,000 to allow me to stay!" "Doesn't matter. Keep your head down, work hard, pay your taxes, don't get caught, and everything will work out when we get to you. Oh, and if you do choose to leave, your out for 10 years, regardless of weather your kids are American citizens or not." That sounds right to you?!?! Thats why many of these people are protesting. Because they know what these laws are like. They force you to be here illegally, EVEN when you HAVE A CASE!! There are others who came here and overstayed their visas. Yes. But as I have said before, the government closed it's eyes to it, because it was convinient. They could hae the laborers, not have any responsibility towards them, and then they could tell the American people that it was all the evil crimial illegals fault. I'm sorry, but that is not true. You really think that the greatest nation on earth, with the most military might of any planet could not secure its borders if it really really wanted to? Please. America sends a mixed message.

No on the other hand, I can see where you are coming from. My husband and I were talking about this issue yesterday and he said something that made alot of sense. And he said, I can understand that an American would not want his country to become overrun by foreigners. I can understand them not wanting hispanics, nor asians, etc.. becoming a majority in their country. They want to remain in control, and they should be the majority. Nobody wants people from other countries to come in and change the face, and the culture, and the principles of their country. But the fact is they need laborers. I've been here 10 years, and I no longer work for $240 a week like I did in my first 4 years here. Nor do I work now for $360 a week like I did for 2 years after that. Slowely I learned skills and trades, and improved my English, and now I won't work for less than $700-800 a week, and even as much as $1,000 a week, as has been the case within the last 2 years. And I certainly don't want my kids to grow up to work for that amount. In the same way, Americans do not want their kids to grow up to work in farms, and to work in cleaning, and to work for a peanuts. And so, there is a need for these poor laborers who will work the hard jobs, and who should receive adequate compensation, but who really are doing jobs that most Americans would not want to do. And unfortunatly, because of their background, most Mexicans who come here ARE willing to do these jobs and ARE willing to do them even after they become legal. Of course you can't allow them to be the overwhelming majority of immigrants in the country. You need to close the borders. You need to keep their numbers within reason. But you also need immigrants from places like Europe and Asia, and more advanced countries in South America who come here, and have an education, and studied in their countries, and will continue to study and grow in the US. You need these people to do the trades in construction, and to make etched glass (as my husband does), and to work with marble, and granite, and with highrise structures, and other highly skilled labor. And you need those who will come here and be nurses and doctors and in computers (areas where a need for 500,000 yearly visas have been identified and the US only issues 65,000 a year). But again, you need to control it. Or pretty soon the face of their country will have changed, and that too is unacceptable. So the reality is, their needs to be a comprehensive, thought out, approach to immigration by the government. And this can only be achieved through rational discussion, without pre-supposed biases and soundbites. It IS a complex issue, and America has EVERY RIGHT, and a duty in fact to control it. But the fact remains the the US made this mess by pretending not to see what was happeing (ala don't ask don't tell in the military), and now it want's to shift the blame. What we need is for people to tone down the rhetoric, find out what the TRUE issues are (not the propaganda being spouted by the media to shape public opinion) and allow true, needed, and fair legislation and laws to be enacted.

[Paula]

Hey CoAspen!

Thank you so much for the kind words of encouragement (you too Niel, I think I forgot to thank you, but I am truly grateful for your understanding).

Yes, it would be nice if all SDA's saw this issue in the same way. The truth is that many of the immigrants that came to the US in the past came in illegally. But no one says that. Many 3rd and 4th generation Americans had illegal ancestors. But its ancient history, so it no longer counts. However, it is also a fact that in the past, America had a place for people of all economic backgrounds and skills. There was room for everyone, from the lowest, poorest, most unskilled, to the richest, smartest, and most advanced immigrants. And while many times the people were not accepting of certain immigrants and mistreated them, the government enacted fair and righteous laws, for they understood the importance of being a nation made up of many cultures and ideas. And what made America great was the fact that the people who came here did so in order to make a better life, to prosper, to grow, to become more. And in the process it made this country grow, and prosper, and into more than what it would otherwise have been. That is still true today. Everyone who comes here has a bit of a pioneer spirit. I came as a toddler, so I don't know that I would have had the courage to leave behind my family and friends for a new country in the way that people like my parents and my husband did. But there is a spirit there, a boldness and a desire to be more, that is the basis of that famous "American Spirit".

On the other hand, I can understand that in todays world of such striking clashes between religions and cultures and principles, the US would be leery of welcoming in foreigners. I can understand the fear that someday there will be so many foreigners that the WASP's will be a minority. Then what will become of its principles and values? Then will it still be America? So I can also understand a need to control immigration. To control the amount of foreigners admitted in. But the truth is that America has become what it is because of this mixture of cultures and thoughts and faiths. And we who are Adventist know that its downfall will come, not from continuing to be as it has always been. It's downfall will come when it forgets who it is. When it forgets the constitutional freedoms that have made it great. When it starts to trample on human rights and religious freedoms. When it becomes afraid of differing religions and cultures, instead of embracing them as it always has.

As I have said before, I grew up here. This is all I have ever known. There is very little Brazilian in me. And so my reasons for taking up this cause, my reasons for arguing it here, and for trying to start a more balanced debate on the issue, are twofold. First of all, because I have lived through it. And I can't turn my backs on those who are still living it. But secondly, and equally important, is because it is, in a way, a crack in the foundation. As America turns away from it's past as an Immigrant Nation, as America begins to view people of different cultures and faiths with suspicion and fear, it will become less. As America becomes more and more nationalistic and inclusive and introspected, it will become less and less embracing of differences and personal freedoms. And the day that happens will be a very sad day, not only for Seventh-day Adventists, but for all Americans, and for all those who have loved what America has been and what it has stood for.

[bonnie]

Paula,

I don't doubt your word as to the side of the story you have seen. There of course is the other side as well. It is the same as the welfare receipient. Anyone that truly needs help and a hand up, I wish that had more and a better system to help them in the immediate and long term and get rid of those that leech of and drain the dollars so that the truly deserving are able to obtain what they need. Afraid that is a long time in coming.

One thing I take a little exception to what you have said, and I have seen others make this type of statement. When I see it, it almost makes me laught.

Paula said....In the same way, Americans do not want their kids to grow up to work in farms, and to work in cleaning, and to work for a peanuts. And so, there is a need for these poor laborers who will work the hard jobs, and who should receive adequate compensation, but who really are doing jobs that most Americans would not want to do. And unfortunatly, because of their background, most Mexicans who come here ARE willing to do these jobs and ARE willing to do them even after they become legal.

What is wrong with working on a farm??

Number 1, We deliberately gave up a brand new home we had built

and bought a old farm. House was 127 years old and not modern except for electricity. We had four sons and wanted them in the country and their minds and hands occupied and out of trouble. Our three oldest are now all in their forties and of the two things they have expressed gratitute for in their upbringing, living on the farm is one, going to academy is the other.

You also mention cleaning. I made more money while I had my cleaning service than the college grads I worked for. I had four women working for me. I began with two days a week just for the extra money and as referrals came in and I could not handle it alone I ended up hiring others. This was in the eighties. I did this for ten years, when I quit I was making between 30.00 and 35.00 an hour depending on the day. Yet when eveyone talks of cleaning I can almost see them holding their nose.

I found it rather funny one of the clients I worked for that had a college education, a large beautiful home and could afford to hire me on a weekly basis ended up quiting her job and started her own cleaning service. She went at it in a bigger way than I and was quite happy "cleaning' as she went to the bank.

Any of my kids wants to do that, all I can say is go for it. Good money to be made if you are meticulous and pay attention to detail. You also get some very nice perks along the way from those that are truly wealthy.

Bonnie

[Dr. Shane]

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And he said, I can understand that an American would not want his country to become overrun by foreigners. I can understand them not wanting hispanics, nor asians, etc.. becoming a majority in their country. They want to remain in control, and they should be the majority.

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This is not my postion at all. I have no problem being in the racial minority. I am in that minority now in Texas. My boss is a hispanic and I am the only white person that works for the company. What makes America great is the rule of law and our Constitutional form of government. It matters not what the racial make-up is as long as the rule of law and Constitution remain in affect.

My concern about illegal immirgration is first fairness. It is not fair to let illegals come into this country while we make others wait in line at some embassy for years to come in legally. Secondly is our infrastructure. We cannot let our infrastucture (hospitals, schools, water treatment plants, highways, electrical grid, etc.) become overwelmed by too much growth too fast. Thirdly is disease control. Immirgrants can bring disease to our country as easily as Americans can take disease to other countries. TB and HIV are two diseases that each immigrant should be checked for. Fourthly is the criminal element. Most illegals do not have a criminal background in their own country but enough do that it is a concern. No country should have to allow criminals from another country entrance.

[Paula]

Hey Bonnie!

On the farm thing, I agree with you. In fact we are currently looking at possibly purchasing a small "farm" with 15 acres in middle Tennessee (30 miles from Nashville). We too want to raise our kids on a farm, as you have done. But there is a BIG difference between raising ones kids on a "gentlemans farm", and living OFF of the farm, and having to do hard manual labor for 16 hours a day. It sounds to me like you had a "day job", as did your husband. Thats what we plan on doing. We plan on having fruit trees and on planting some vegetables, and maybe even having a cow and a couple of horses and some chicken someday, but something small and manageable. This is a lifestyle choice. And most would love to have their kids grow up in this sort of environment.

These are not the same farms that laborers work in. Most Americans do not want to, nor do they want their teenagers kids to go to work on a 200 acre farm picking oranges and tomatoes from dawn to dusk, in the hot sun, for $400.00 a week. I certainly don't want that for my kids. So I really feel like your example is comparing apples to oranges.

Secondly, in regards to cleaning. Yes, house cleaning brings in good money. But when I spoke of cleaning I wasn't speaking only of house cleaning. My parents worked 17 hours a day cleaning public places. Public bathrooms and toilets, doing strippers on floors for 8-9 hours a night, then having to buff everything on your hands and knees. They worked using industrial grade cleaners that ate off the tips of their fingers. Years and years after my father has stopped cleaning (he now owns a cleaning company, pays fair wages, and uses environmentally friendly cleaners that are less harsh on his employees), he still can't feel his fingertips. They scrubbed walls and cleaned labs (at Chicago's Northwestern University in the early 80's) where they constantly poked their fingers on disposed needles. I think we are talking about very different styles of cleaning. And don't forget that even with house cleaning, many times when someone see's that they have an immigrant (legal or not), they expect them to do EVERYTHING. From taking everything out of cabinets and closets and cleaning inside, to scrubbing tiles and grouts and doing laundry, folding and putting away. Even ironing is on the list. It is hard backbreaking work. A friend of mine had a client who told her she wouldn't hire an American because all they wanted to do was dust and sweep and mop and vacuum. And that when she would ask them to do all the "extras" they would charge more. My friend was outraged that the woman was telling her to her face that she was being exploited. Not only that,but all of her clients made her do these things.

Again, I don't think most parents want that life for their kids. Would I mind if my kids owned a cleaning company, paid a fair wage to their employees, etc.. etc.. ? No. But I certainly would not want my kids to depend on a cleaning job for their sustenance. I know none of my kids dream about cleaning for a living, nor about picking tomatoes, nor about mixing concrete for their future. They dream about being inventors and scientists and doctors and teachers. I'd say most Americans want to see their kids to do better than they did. And this can be seen in the fact that farming communities are losing their young people in droves. Young Americans are leaving the farms of their parents behind, going to college, and staying in the big cities. By and large, they don't want to work in their own farms, much less work for pay at another farm.

[Paula]

Shane,

I agree with you. Immigration must be controlled. However, because the leadership pretended not to see illegals coming in (because it was convenient to use them, and pretend that they didn't want them here. That way they wouldn't have to go through the trouble or expense of getting their paperwork done, and could avoid any responsibility and or commitment towards them. The biggest proof of this is the fact that the IRS allows one to file taxes using an IT number, if they have no Social Security Card. Why would the government make a way to collect taxes from illegals (and not go to their homes and deport them, since their address is on the paperwork) unless they are "in on it". Another thing is public schools. If America really had wanted to crack down on illegals it could simply have gone to public schools. Looked up the kids that have no Social on file, get their address, go to their homes and deport their families. Again why was this not done? Not because of kindness. But because their were perks to having these people here in an illegal state.

As for clogging up the lines for those outside the country, that is impossible. While these people are hear illegally, the quotas for those applying oversees remains the same (it doesn't fluctuate based on how many illegals are in the states). The reason it takes so long for those applying through the legal status to come is because INS takes long. Period. If someone is here illegally and cannot apply for a change of status, how can they be keeping INS from issuing papers to people who HAVE applied? The illegals are not in the system. The wait is due to the incompetence of the system. The illegals have nothing to do with it. Yes, they jumped the gun and came without applying. That is wrong. But the system created that. So now it must be dealt with.

Just a few clarifications on my positions, Shane (I think this will make it easier to have a dialogue.

1). They SHOULD build a tighter border

2). They SHOULD enforce immigration controls, and even

build the wall at the border. They should also toughen

security INSIDE the country, make sure businesses

follow the laws. They should also make sure fair wages

and benefits, and workers comp are provided.

3). They should have fair and workable immigration laws for

those wanting to come here legally.

4). Immigration (from another country to the US) should

take a reasonable amount of time, not 15-30 years as is

now the case for many forms of immigration (in the

family reunification category, and others as well).

5). They should re-open legal immigration for "laborers"

(the poorest of the poor, the homeless, per the plaque

at the base of the Statue of Liberty). However, since

we have plenty of these hear right now, the numbers

should be low, and should only increase as the need

arises (when there are jobs to be filled that are not

being taken)

6). They should also make LARGER quotas available for those

industries that are in the greatest need for workers.

By 2025 their will be a shortage of 29% in the field of

nursing. Currently it takes a nurse from the

Fillipenes 25 years to have her petition to come to the

US processed. There needs to be more quotas for

Skilled Labor and for Proffessionals in areas where

there are not enough US citizens to do the work. This

to should be on a need basis and should be adjusted

accordingly.

7). The people who are already here, in my opinion, should

be grandfathered under the guest worker program. Why?

Again, because the government turned a blind eye

because it was "convenient" and now wants to pretend to

be outraged. Of course these should be screened for

background checks, medical checks and wether or not

they have been working, paying taxes, etc.. etc..

[Dr. Shane]

To clear up a couple of things.

Illegals are given a means to pay taxes so they can later be prosecuted for tax evation. Some areas provide stamps for drug fealers to buy so they can pay taxes on their illegal income for the same reason.

Schools are not used to crack down on immirgration because than illegals wouldn't send their kids to school and the kids would be more likely to commit crime or be exploted in child labor.

[Paula]

Hey Shane,

I'm a bit out of time to reply to your post. But I wanted to post a transcript from Anderson Cooper 360. This guy is the only one I've seen so far giving BOTH sides of the story. I think you'll find his statements extremely familiar (if you've been reading all of my, unforgivably lengthy posts!

Here goes:

Despite all the conversation about immigration, it occurred to us that something is being overlooked. If you wanted to emigrate to the United States legally, how hard would it be? Well, in a word, it's complicated. Actually, it's complicated is two words, never mind. There are more rules, stipulations, special circumstances and catch- 22s than you can ever imagine. Of course, if you're rich, a lot of that doesn't apply. Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look at the pictures, hope and inspiration of legalized American citizens.

And justice for all.

FOREMAN: And the question about illegal immigrants seems obvious. Why don't people come here legally? And the answer is just as clear to Brent Wilkes, an activist for immigrant rights.

BRENT WILKES, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN AMERICAN CITIZENS: Well, they can't play by the rules when the rules are you can't play.

FOREMAN: Well, you can play but the rules are strict, according to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service. First, through family.

FOREMAN: As the movie "Green Card" portrays, immediate families of U.S. citizens can come in with relative ease, as long as they prove the relationship is not a fraud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do.

FOREMAN: But bringing in others is difficult and time consuming. If you were from the Philippines and want your grown, married son to join you this year, you should have applied for his legal entry in 1988. Because that weighting list is 18 years.

FOREMAN: Immigrant sports stars, celebrities, people with highly specialized skills or advanced educations can be brought in by employers, but the less special they are, the harder it gets. People seeking political asylum are legally admitted while their cases are evaluated. So are investors who commit $1 million to build a U.S. business. A half million if it helps a struggling industry.

And finally, there is the diversity lottery. Out of the millions of low-skilled and unskilled laborers who want to move to America every year, 55,000 essentially have their names pulled from a hat. But -- and this is important -- if you are from Mexico or a handful of other countries that already send a lot of immigrants, the State Department has said, your name cannot be in the hat.

Immigration was once much more open. When the nation needed many workers people hopped on a boat overseas hopped off here.

WILKES: That was it. It's nothing like that anymore. It's much more complicated, and it's much harder to come into the country legally. And for that reason, that's why we've got illegal workers.

FOREMAN: Taking the citizenship quiz, saying the oath, those are the easy parts. Getting legally in line for the test, that can be hard.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: So Anderson, complicated is a very generous word. If you are an unskilled or low-skilled laborer in Mexico, it is very close to impossible, certainly highly improbable that you could get in line and legally come into the United States ever.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Paula said:

7). The people who are already here, in my opinion, should be grandfathered under the guest worker program. Why? Again,

because the government turned a blind eye because it was "convenient" and now wants to pretend to be outraged.

---

You have a valid point!

[Dr. Shane]

It appears that the blanket ammenisty given in 1986 actually encouraged more illegals to come. So that is why it is not likely to happen again. I like the Senate compromise that is now being held up because some folks are playing politics.