The nature of the Holy Spirit

[Stan]

It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. - AA 52

Well put EGW

[debbym]

Today's readying from the devotional The Faith I Live By

One Lease of Life, June 10

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them. Ecclesiastes 12:1. {FLB 167.1}

Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life. Precious are its opportunities, and earnestly should they be improved. Once lost, they are gone forever. {FLB 167.2}

Before us God places eternity, with its solemn realities, and gives us a grasp on immortal, imperishable themes. He presents valuable, ennobling truth, that we may advance in a safe and sure path, in pursuit of an object worthy of the earnest engagement of all our capabilities. {FLB 167.3}

God looks into the tiny seed that He Himself has formed, and sees wrapped within it the beautiful flower, the shrub, or the lofty, widespreading tree. So does He see the possibilities in every human being. We are here for a purpose. God has given us His plan for our life, and He desires us to reach the highest standard of development. {FLB 167.4}

He desires that we shall constantly be growing in holiness, in happiness, in usefulness. All have capabilities which they must be taught to regard as sacred endowments, to appreciate as the Lord’s gifts, and rightly to employ. He desires the youth to cultivate every power of their being, and to bring every faculty into active exercise. He desires them to enjoy all that is useful and precious in this life, to be good and to do good, laying up a heavenly treasure for the future life. {FLB 167.5}

It should be their ambition to excel in all things that are unselfish, high, and noble. Let them look to Christ as the pattern after which they are to be fashioned. The holy ambition that He revealed in His life they are to cherish—an ambition to make the world better for their having lived in it. This is the work to which they are called. {FLB 167.6}

Only one lease of life is granted us; and the inquiry with everyone should be, How can I invest my life so that it will yield the greatest profit? How can I do most for the glory of God and the benefit of my fellow men? {FLB 167.7}

[8thdaypriest]

I'm just curious Stan.  Why have you begun another thread on the Holy Spirit?  Has not this topic been debated for pages and pages and pages.  Are you just trying to let us know that you feel our debating is useless on this topic? 

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I'm just curious Stan.  Why have you begun another thread on the Holy Spirit?  Has not this topic been debated for pages and pages and pages.  Are you just trying to let us know that you feel our debating is useless on this topic? 

I don't even consider it a debate.  I would LOVE to know more about the nature of the Holy Spirit!  I would like to know as much as I can about the nature Father, the Son, and the spirit which comes forth from them.  Part of learning sharing opinions.  I would never condemn a trinitarian, and I am confident that none here would condemn someone who prefers a dualistic God rather than a triune God.  God is a riddle wrapped in enigma and surrounded by mystery.  None of us will understand Him fully until we can see Him face to face.  At best, we can only partially understand.  I think it's fun to compare notes with others whether or not the believe as I do. It quits being fun when people start taking it personally.

[Stan]

Am sorry, with the events going on, that are settling down now, I had not been following the other one.  I got that statement yesterday..

[APL]

14 hours ago, Stan said:

It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. - AA 52

Well put EGW

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}

 

We can even put passages of scripture together and create a few fundamental beliefs. Has it strengthen the church? But perhaps they should have been silent! 

 

It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. {AA 51.3}

But somehow our theologians know.  Or they think they know. 

Ssshhh!

[debbym]

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to make known God to dull minds dead in trespasses and sin.  it is the work of the Holy Spirit to inspire and revive and lead,  to unfold to us every blessing prepared for us by the life death and intercession of Jesus.  

Great is the Lord, no one can measure His greatness.  we have a hard time fathoming the physical universe technology is revealing to us, let alone fathoming the Creator of all.

Yet he is able to write his love on our hearts and leave us in awe, worship, love and serving our God, through the Holy Spirit.

[Gus Foster]

A couple of weeks ago John Grosboll of Steps to Life Ministry held their camp meeting in Wichita, Kansas which focused on all prospects of the their understanding of the Holy Spirit. The featured speaker was Barry Mellor, formally from So Africa. They sent me his 612 book; "The Truth About the Trident," which is quite deep and informative, especially about the understanding of the 'trinity' defined by Catholicism, which basically changes and erodes all Biblical protestant teachings.  

This book is available from several sources for anyone wishing to delve into, as EGW describes, the mystery of the Holy Spirit.    

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, Gus Foster said:

A couple of weeks ago John Grosboll of Steps to Life Ministry held their camp meeting in Wichita, Kansas which focused on all prospects of the their understanding of the Holy Spirit. The featured speaker was Barry Mellor, formally from So Africa. They sent me his 612 book; "The Truth About the Trident," which is quite deep and informative, especially about the understanding of the 'trinity' defined by Catholicism, which basically changes and erodes all Biblical protestant teachings.  

This book is available from several sources for anyone wishing to delve into, as EGW describes, the mystery of the Holy Spirit.    

 

Ellen White wrote the following ( pertaining to the Holy Spirit ) for the Sabbath Herald August 31, 1905 Paper:

"I entreat EVERYONE to be clear and firm regarding the CERTAIN TRUTHS that WE have heard, received AND AVOCATED. The statements of Gods Words are plain. Plant your feet firmly on the platform of eternal truth. Reject EVERY phase of error, even though it be covered with a semblance of reality, WHICH DENIES THE PERSONALITY OF GOD AND OF CHRIST".

"The Personality of God" was an absolute defined Article of Faith for Seventh-day Adventists. It's definition was simply that God The Father is a hominid flesh, bone & organ God. Michael & Lucifer the archangels ( prior to the Fall of Man ) were also flesh, bone and organ hominid entities.

The Doctrine of the Trinity affirms that God is Father, Son & Holy Spirit. ONE "SUBSTANCE" that is co-equally owned by the 3 "Person's of the Trinity.

In speaking of the importance of the Personality of God Doctrine it's salient to note the teaching of the SDA Church on the matter. See highlighted Screenshot dated 1903.

Dr. Kellogg got himself into HOT WATER because he forwarded the notion of "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT" Vs. God's Holy Spirit.

Kellogg came into this understanding AFTER he "accepted the Doctrine of the Trinity" - which was, in Circa 1903, Anathema to Seventh-day Adventists.

 

Ellen White started out as a "Methodist" but was required to renounce that Faith Tradition BECAUSE the Methodist Creed denied that God the Father & Christ ( prior to Incarnation ) were hominid flesh, bone & organ God's complete with "members". See 1878 Screenshot.

There are of course SCORES of other articles within SDA publications which discuss and provide clarification as to "the nature" of the Holy Spirit which can be read at the archives.

 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

My personal take:

1.    There is no statement in Scripture that there are three coequal, coeternal divine beings (Triune God).  There is also no statement that God is one divine being who manifests in three ways - as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Trinitarianism).

2.      Scripture never uses the word Trinity or triune, in reference to God.

3.      Christ referred to God as “the Father” and “My Father”.  The New Testament writers  refer to “God our Father” many, many times, but no Bible writer, ever referred to Christ as  “God the Son,” or to the Holy Spirit as “God the Holy Spirit.”  Christ is divine (John 1:1-3).  He is a divine being because He was begotten from the Father who is divine. The Son of God was to be worshiped by angels (Heb. 1:6) and by men (Phil. 2:10).  The Father of course, is called “God our Father” (Rom. 1:7,  1Co. 1:3,  2Co. 1:2,  Eph. 1:2, Phi. 1:2,  Col. 1:2, 1Th. 1:1,  2Th. 1:1,  2Th. 1:2,  1Ti. 1:2,  Phm. 1:3).

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT WORSHIPED

4.    I have found no command in Scripture that we are to exalt, glorify, give thanks to, pray to, or in any other way “worship” the Holy Spirit.  There is no account of any created being offering worship to the Holy Spirit by name.  We are to worship the Father “in spirit and in truth” (John 4:23).
 
        Revelation 5:13  “And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth . . . I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!’”
     
        In the New Testament Scriptures, two divine beings are worshiped - the Father and His Son.

CHRIST NEVER PRAYED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT

5.      Christ prayed only to His Father, and never spoke to another divine being by name.  He instructed His disciples to pray to the Father, “in My name”(Matthew 6:10, John 15:16, John 16:23).

6.     We are to pray for the spirit, never to the spirit.  The Holy Spirit is the gift.

        Luke 11:13  “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

        Acts 2:33  “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear.”

        Christ “received” the Spirit of His Father, which enabled Him to then pour out this power and presence upon the waiting disciples.  They experienced the spirit as Christ Himself - “with” them.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS “HIS SPIRIT”

7.    Singular pronouns indicating possession, source or relation, are used extensively with the word "spirit" throughout Scripture.  The Holy Spirit is called “His spirit,” “My spirit,” “the spirit of the Lord,” “the spirit of God,” “the spirit of Him” or “Your spirit.” This suggests that the Holy Spirit is the omnipresence and power of the Father and/or of Christ.  In Matthew 12:18,  Luke 4:18, and Romans 8:11, the Spirit is “the Spirit of the Father.”  1 Peter 1:10-11 refers to the “Spirit of Christ” as the inspiration of Old Testament prophets.

THE FATHER IS THE SUPREME SOVEREIGN GOD

8.     Jesus called His Father “the only true God” (John 17:3).

9.    Paul said, “There is One God, the Father, of Whom are all things, AND One Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things” (1Corinthians 8:6).  He also wrote, “one God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:6).

10.    We were created by the Father,  through the Son   (1Cor.8:6,  Eph.3:9, Col.1:12-16, Heb.1:1-3).
    
        Ephesians 3:14,15  [Paul writing] “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ’ of Whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

         Those who enter the heavenly mansions will have the name of the Father AND of the Son written in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1, Rev.3:12). 

“HE IS GOD”
11.    In Scripture, God is  referred to using singular pronouns such as He, His or Him.  “Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come” (Revelation 14:7).

THE GOD OF CHRIST

12.    The Father is the God of Christ (Jn. 20:17, Rom. 15:6, 1Cor. 11:3, 2Cor. 1:3, 2Cor. 11:31, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 1:17, Col. 1:3, Heb. 1:9, 1Pet 1:3, Rev. 1:6).  The following statement was made by Christ to John, many years after Pentecost 31AD.  

        Revelation 3:12  “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.  And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.  And I will write on him My new name.”     

THE FATHER’S WILL IS SUPREME

13.    “There is one Lawgiver . . .” (James 4:12).

14.  “The head of Christ is God” (1 Cor. 11:3).

    Christ will be subordinate to the Father for all eternity (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).  
    The kingdom of heaven, was called by Christ, “My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:29).

        There is no mention of “the Spirit’s kingdom.”

    “Our Father ... Thine is the kingdom” (Matthew 6:13).

        The last like the first sentence of the Lord’s prayer, points to our Father as above all power and authority and every name that is named.

 

 WE ARE RECONCILED TO THE FATHER

15.    We are reconciled to  the Father through the Son (Col 1:19-20). 

16.    Jesus said, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father” (John 14:8-9).
 
        He did not say, “You have also seen the Spirit” .  The Father is Spirit, but also appears in a form which can be “seen” by His created beings.  He “sits” on a throne.  He holds a scroll in His right hand (Rev. 5:1,7).

17.    Christ was “sent by the Father” (John 5:23, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 6:39, 6:44, 6:57, 8:16, 8:29, 8:42, 10:36, 12:49, 17:21, 20:21, 1John 4:14).  

        Never did Christ say that He was sent by the Spirit.

        The Father glorified Christ, the Father gave Christ authority, the Father is the “Only True God,” the Father sent Christ, the Father was glorified by Christ, the Father assigned Christ His work, and Christ existed with the Father before the world existed (John 17:1-5).
                        

JESUS is "the Son of the Father"

18.    “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.” (John 3:16).

        1 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of the Father, in truth and love.”

        Why call Him “the Son,” if He was not really a Son at all, but simply took the role of a son, or was manifest as a son - but was not in fact, “begotten.”

                    
CHRIST WAS THE LITERAL SON - OF GOD THE FATHER

19.    Proverbs 8:22-30 is a part of a corollary on wisdom.  Christ is called “the wisdom of God” (1 Cor. 1:24,30).  (The “word” of God in John 1:1-3 is the same concept to a Hebrew as  “the wisdom” of God.)  The speaker of Proverbs 8 says, “I was brought forth.”  This the same Hebrew expression used to say “I was born.”  (Also see: Job 15:7-8.)  Many believe the writer of Proverbs Chapter 8 was speaking under inspiration as Christ - speaking of His pre-incarnate existence.

    John 16:27  [Christ said] “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.”

    John 17:8 [Christ prayed] “I came forth from You [Father] and they have believed that You sent Me.”

    Matthew 16:16-18 [Peter] “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,”
        [Jesus replied]  “Upon this rock I will build my church.”

Any church which does not teach that Jesus Christ was and is literally the Son of God the Father, has NOT built upon "the rock".      

 

 ONLY ONE MEDIATOR

20.    “There is only one mediator between God and men” (1Timothy 2:5).  

    If we say that God the Father communicates with us through Christ,
        who then communicates with us through the Holy Spirit (who is also God),
            then Christ no longer mediates between God and man.  
    This arrangement inserts God (the Holy Spirit) as mediator between Christ and man.  

    If we say that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit
        are three manifestations of the same Divine Being,
        then there is no mediator between God and man.

SALVATION BELONGS TO THE FATHER AND THE SON

21.        Revelation 7:10  “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’”

TWO DIVINE BEINGS
THE FATHER AND HIS SON

22.    We “abide in the Son and in the Father” (1John 2:24).

23.    “Our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son” (1John 1:3).

        Jesus said, “I and My Father are one” (John 10:30).  He prayed that those who believed would also be “one” with the Father and Himself (John 17:11,21,22,23). Christ did not say that He was also “one” with the Spirit, or that we would ever be “one” with the Holy Spirit, as if to say the Spirit is a third divine being.  

24.    The Father forgives (Matt 6:12,14,15).  Christ also forgives sin, because He received all authority from His Father, (John 5:22, 27; Matt 28:18) but nowhere in Scripture do we read that we are forgiven by the Holy Spirit.
 
25.     John 17:1 & 3  “Jesus spoke these words lifted His eyes to heaven, and said: ‘Father [first person] the hour is come. Glorify Your Son [second person] that Your Son also may glorify You [first person], . . . And this is eternal life, that they may know You [first person],  the only true God, and Jesus Christ [second person] Whom You [first person] have sent.’”

    26. If Christ was not a separate being from His Father, then He prayed to Himself to be delivered from death (Luke 22:42).  When He said, “Not my will but Yours be done.” Does this not signify that there were two individual wills, and therefore two separate beings?  He said, “I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me” (John 6:38).   

27.    All of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found in the Father and the Son (Col. 2:2-3).

28.    Ten times in the New Testament, Paul wrote “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”  It is hard to believe that it was an oversight on his part, not to have mentioned the Spirit also in these passages, if the Holy Spirit is indeed a third divine being.

THE FATHER ONLY

29.    Christ stated that no one, not even the Son Himself, knew the day or the hour of His return to earth, but the “Father only” (Matt. 24:36).

    How could the Son not “know” if He was a manifestation of one divine being who is omniscient? How could the Spirit not have known - if He is a third co-equal divine being?

        NOTE: This statement was true at the time it was spoken.  I am quite sure that the Son NOW knows.

THE TRINITY IS CONFUSING.

30.    “God so loved the world that He [singular] gave His [singular] only begotten Son” (John 3:16).

        If “God” is one divine being who manifests in three ways, then HE could not have given HIS “begotten” Son.  He could manifest as a begotten Son.  He could give part of Himself (or a manifestation of Himself).

        If “God” is three co-equal divine beings, then one of that Trinity could assume the role of a Son, but you could not say that a divine Father “gave His Son.”

        Did the Apostolic writers intend to mislead?  I think not!  I understand the Bible as it reads.  Jesus Christ was and is the begotten Son of God our Father.  That is who He is.  That understanding is the foundation of our faith.

IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS

    Perhaps no one section of this list, by itself, would convince the reader that God is, or is not a Trinity.  It is the cumulative weight of all the arguments together, which I believe urges the view.

I worship God our Father, and I worship Jesus Christ His divine Son.  I do NOT worship the spirit as a third divine being. 

Respectfully,  Rachel Cory,  prophecyviewpoint.com

 

[Gustave]

John 20: 27 – 28

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

 

John 14, 26

But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you

 

John 14, 16-17

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

 

John 15, 26

But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

 

1st Corinthians 2, 11

For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God.

[APL]

We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ. {Lt66-1894}

[Gustave]

The Holy Spirit is God for the same reason the Father & Son are 'God'.

[JoeMo]

22 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Perhaps no one section of this list, by itself, would convince the reader that God is, or is not a Trinity.  It is the cumulative weight of all the arguments together, which I believe urges the view.

I worship God our Father, and I worship Jesus Christ His divine Son.  I do NOT worship the spirit as a third divine being. 

I'm voting with Rachel on this issue.

 

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

How can The Holy Spirit be a "representative" if He is the same Person?

EGW calls the spirit a representative.  Can't find any place in scripture that makes the same connection.  I'll go with scripture.

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, APL said:

We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ. {Lt66-1894}

Jesus did speak of HIMSELF in third person. 

Matthew 8:20 Jesus replied, "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew 13:41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

I have not counted the number of verses where Jesus speaks of himself in third person, but I know there are dozens.

Every time Jesus uses the name "Son of Man", He speaks in third person - He, or HIM, as opposed to I or me. 

Is it not possible that Jesus was also speaking of Himself also in third, AS the spirit with us - the other omnipresent comforter. 

In sending the spirit, Jesus was sending HIS OWN PRESENCE.

He did say, "I am with you always". 

If the spirit is a THIRD DIVINE BEING - then God did not have a son, and Jesus did not have a divine Father. 

If the spirit is a THIRD DIVINE BEING - then Jesus is not the only mediator between God and man. 

Rather - the structure of communication would be God [the Father] - to Jesus [the God/man] - to God [the Holy Spirit] - to man.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

17 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

18 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

How can The Holy Spirit be a "representative" if He is the same Person?

Jesus is the ONLY "representative" of God to men, and of men before God. 

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus is the ONLY "representative" of God to men, and of men before God. 

Read John 14, 16 again.

Jesus says He will ask The Father - who will send ANOTHER Paraclete.

That is clearly ANOTHER Person distinct from the Father & The Son.

 

 

[debbym]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

This is what people keep missing. Point well made Gustave

Jesus made it clear, in His absence they would experience a great Loss.  The Helper from Heaven would come to them and represent the character and purposes of Jesus, just as the Holy Spirit was there for Christ, teaching Him of His Heavenly Father.  

The Spirit represents Jesus to each individual without the limitations of time and space Jesus had.  Bringing all the authority and love and tenderness and power of  God to us personally.  Only By the Holy Spirit can we resist  the power of sin rolling down through every generation in our sinful nature.  By these promises we are partakers of Divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

the oil of anointing that flowed down the robe of Aaron represented the Holy Spirit that enveloped Jesus at his inauguration as High priest and flowed down to earth through His great sacrifice and victory in a great torrent, to bring us heaven, to lift us up and restore our communion with heaven.

The white curtain wall around the desert sanctuary surrounded the work of Christ on earth and in heaven.  From the alter of sacrifice to the Most Holy Place Christ walked from earth to heaven.  Earth is profoundly connected to heaven by the powerful working of the Holy Spirit.  The Spirit makes known the head of the human race, by creation and now also by incarnation, death, resurrection, and intercession is Jesus. The very heart of God is pouring love and mercy on the world.

[Gustave]

William Miller drew many people from many different faith traditions to his cause of "definite time".

Once Miller admitted his error all existing "Adventists" returned to their former Churches.

Leaving the individuals who didn't have a church to return to.

THESE Adventists ( that remained ) were non- Trinitarian, believed in soul sleep yet that wasn't enough to keep them together - they started to squabble over teachings and quickly began to differentiate themselves into further sects.

Seventh-day Adventists were one of these sub sects.

 

The anti-Trinitarian stuff we're reading here in this thread is all throw back from that early era of post Millerite dispersal.

 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Gustave said:

Read John 14, 16 again.

Jesus says He will ask The Father - who will send ANOTHER Paraclete.

That is clearly ANOTHER Person distinct from the Father & The Son.

 

 

Not necessarily.  That could be ANOTHER way for Christ to be WITH His disciples. 

There are two Greek words, both translated into English as "another".   Allos is specific - like another dime.    Heteros is non-specific - like another coin, or another book.  Guess which one Jesus used.  Yep.  The specific one.  Jesus was saying that the Father will send another ME.  

The Son of God, in His pre-incarnate state was different from the Son of God after He incarnated into human form and nature.  But He was still the Son of God.  Why would it be a stretch, to say that the post-incarnate Son of God would be different again, from His incarnate state.  Once glorified, and with the full spirit of His Father flowing through Him, He could be omnipresent once again - by His spirit. 

If I am on the phone with Joe, is Joe not "with me".   I cannot literally "see" him, but I can hear his voice, and I can understand him.  The spirit is Jesus' way of communicating with us.  We have a built in "receiver" to hear him. The spirit of Christ is "with us" and "in us".  This is why Paul wrote, "Christ in me - the hope of glory".  He didn't say, "the Holy Spirit in me".  He said, "Christ in me". 

Acts 2:33  “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear” (NAS).

So Jesus is the one who "poured out" the spirit.  How could one divine being "pour out" another divine being?  Or baptize with another divine being? 

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Ephesians 3:14-18  “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.”

According to Paul, Christ dwells in our hearts, through the spirit OF the Father.  I don't see a THIRD divine being here.  Just God the Father, and Christ the Son. 

Are you going to tell me that God the Father cannot be omnipresent?  Jesus said He was "in the secret place". 

Jesus said the Father gives the spirit.   Luke 11:13  “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (KJV)

        The Father raised Christ from the dead (1Peter 1:3; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:17-20).  Are you going to tell me that the spirit OF God the Father is a THIRD divine being? 

 

How did the disciples and Paul understand Christ's words?  Did they write as if they understood "the spirit" to be a THIRD divine being?  I don't see that understanding in their writings.  There is no praying to the spirit, or greetings in the name of the spirit, or worship of the spirit, or thanking the spirit, or fellowship with the spirit.   Everything is ABOUT God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son. 

If you discount I John 5:7 (believed by most scholars to have been added to the text) and Matthew 28:19 - also believed to have been altered from "baptizing them in My name", then what supporting verses do you have left?  Just John 14: 16-17, & 26, and John 16:13-15.   These verses can be understood in more than one way, therefore they cannot serve as "proof texts". 

 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14:26, ESV)

The word "he" in this scripture could just as easily been translated as "it".  If I had the time, the Internet or wikipedia could teach me all things.

I would love for someone to give us just ONE verse in the Bible where someone prayed TO the Holy Spirit; or where we are advised to pray TO the Holy Spirit rather than for the Spirit or in the Spirit.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Plurality Of Godhead In OT

In the Creation account God refers to Himself in the plural form. “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness’ ” (Gen. 1:26). Other instances occur elsewhere in Genesis: “Behold, the man has become like one of us” (Gen. 3:22); “Come, let us go down and there confuse their language” (Gen. 11:7). Finally, “the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up” (Isa. 6:1) in the heavenly temple (verses 1–4), revealed Himself to Isaiah and disclosed His mission by asking, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” (verse 8). Though other interpretations have been suggested, when these references to God’s actions in the plural are understood as “plural of fullness,” it is possible to see that “a distinction in the divine Being with regard to a plurality of persons is here represented as a germinal idea” (Hasel 65). Of itself, then, the usage of the plural form in relation to God points to a concept of the divinity in which the simplicity adopted by classical theology is replaced by a concept of the one Godhead that involves plurality and complexity.

Us and We, can just as easily refer to TWO persons.  "Us" and "We" does not prove THREE persons. 

God the Father said to His Son, "Let US make man in OUR image". 

[Gustave]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Not necessarily.  That could be ANOTHER way for Christ to be WITH His disciples. 

There are two Greek words, both translated into English as "another".   Allos is specific - like another dime.    Heteros is non-specific - like another coin, or another book.  Guess which one Jesus used.  Yep.  The specific one.  Jesus was saying that the Father will send another ME.  

Like a "mini me", yeah, I'm thinking if you get a group of folks together and play act these lines out and watch the video afterwards you'll start to get red faced.

The Son of God, in His pre-incarnate state was different from the Son of God after He incarnated into human form and nature.  But He was still the Son of God.  Why would it be a stretch, to say that the post-incarnate Son of God would be different again, from His incarnate state.  Once glorified, and with the full spirit of His Father flowing through Him, He could be omnipresent once again - by His spirit. 

The ONLY difference was that 'God' became man w/out ceasing to be God.

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If I am on the phone with Joe, is Joe not "with me".   I cannot literally "see" him, but I can hear his voice, and I can understand him.  The spirit is Jesus' way of communicating with us.  We have a built in "receiver" to hear him. The spirit of Christ is "with us" and "in us".  This is why Paul wrote, "Christ in me - the hope of glory".  He didn't say, "the Holy Spirit in me".  He said, "Christ in me". 

[/quote]

Again, the OTHER Paraclete isn't another "version" of Christ it's a separate Person who shares in the same ultimate mission.

Acts 2:33  “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear” (NAS).

Christ did not refer to Himself as "HE" immediately after affirming The Father would send ANOTHER. You don't seriously expect any of us to accept that as valid reasoning?

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, Gustave said:

Acts 2:33  “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear” (NAS).

Acts is not Christ speaking.  Acts was most likely written by Luke.  I was making the point that Christ RECEIVED the "promise of the Holy Spirit" FROM God the Father, which enabled HIM (Christ) to pour out that spirit upon His waiting disciples, enabling them to perform the signs which helped to convince the Jews gathered for the Day of Pentecost.  

 John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom (or which, or that) I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who (or which, or that) proceeds from the Father, He (or it) will testify of Me."

Does the fact that the spirit would "testify" of Christ, mean that the spirit has to be a THIRD divine person?  To "testify" of Christ, means to give evidence, or to be evidence for the truth of Christ as Messiah and Son of God.  

The miracles testified of Christ.  The steadfast faithfulness of the disciples testified of Christ. 

The Scriptures testified of Christ, but the Scriptures are not a THIRD divine being. 

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."