Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted October 25, 2017 Moderators Share Posted October 25, 2017 Is ordination a core value? See: https://atoday.org/change-part-2-change-and-womens-ordination/ Quote I know of virtually no one who would say that ordination, much less the gender of who is ordained, is one of the core values of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It has never been. The current controversy over the ordination of women is not based on any longstanding teaching, major, minor or peripheral, of the Church. In fact, one searches in vain for a published stand on the subject by the Church until the 1960s – unless it would be the results of the several studies commissioned to study the subject at various of the earlier stages of our history and which, when they recommended that women be ordained, or at least allowed to be ordained, were “deep sixed” or shelved and never heard of again until the recent resurgence of interest in the subject. As a matter of ecclesiological practice in our church It is at best a recent addition by some without any historical precedent who are looking, stretching some would say, for some way to impose their will on the church. and So, if the issue of ordination isn’t a core value of the Seventh-day Adventist Church or even one of it’s traditional teachings until some have elevated it to that status in the past few years, what is so important about this subject that some in the higher echelons of our church’s leadership are willing to risk splitting the church by dissolving Union Conferences, to threaten multiple times administrators at all levels of the church who refused to support their efforts to block the idea of allowing administrative units of the world church to decide whether or not to ordain women in their area of influence, and to subvert voting procedures at the recent General Conference Session to prevent it from happening and then lie about it? The answer lies in a one of the most basic and fundamental aspects of human character. The Underlying Issue in the Debate About Ordination of Women Church history provides us an example that can help us see through the smoke and mirrors and determine what is really going on. Most, if not all of the major controversies in the history of the Church were about power and control, about the efforts of one group to dominate another. At the same time, most were clothed in religious language because, as mentioned above, it just doesn’t seem that spiritual to be fighting over power. For instance, the Crusades were fought under the banner of the Cross, but were in reality wars for control of the Holy Land. The decimation of the Church of the East by the Western Roman Church, although couched in terms of fighting various heresies, were in reality the Western Church’s attempts to destroy any resistance to its preeminence. The same could be said of most of the smaller battles in the Church. And, it would apply to most of the battles that rend denominations, Conferences and local congregations. The real issue dividing the Adventist Church right now is not over values or even long standing teaching as our chart readily reveals. It is all about power and control! Once one realizes that behind all of the religious jargon the issue is not a Biblical one, you realize that different tactics are necessary for dealing with the issue. What we have is not a theological discussion. We are in the midst of a “power encounter” by a group who feel that the Church, to one degree or another, is in or headed for apostasy and who feel that it is there duty to bring it to heel. Therefore, all of the most powerful religious arguments in favor of the ordination of women will have little or no effect – because they miss the point. The battle is not over ordination – that is just the excuse to exercise what Church founder Ellen White described as “Kingly Power.” Tragically, if the current President of the General Conference and his allies are victorious, it will be a pyrrhic victory because they will have laid the foundation for the destruction of the Church they lead. Just as Shakespeare’s Macbeth destroyed himself and those around him, so the current General Conference president’s lust to exercise control and to force uniformity and conformity in place of unity is sowing the seeds of a great tragedy. debbym, JoeMo and aka 3 Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Exactly, a conclusion I had arrived at sometime back.....way, way back! This statement could be applied to so many issues. Quote What we have is not a theological discussion. We are in the midst of a “power encounter”........ JoeMo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 On 10/25/2017 at 5:23 AM, Gregory Matthews said: the current General Conference president’s lust to exercise control and to force uniformity and conformity in place of unity is sowing the seeds of a great tragedy. This is a problem with most (if not all) denominations. Once they reach critical mass, their main priority becomes sustaining the "business" through controlling their members' wallets, beliefs, and behavior; rather than outreach in the name of Jesus. Unfortunately - just like with politics - most people drink the denominational (or governmental) kool-aid rather than research what they are being told to see whether or not it is true. [Normally I do not inject comments into a post that someone else has made, but I believe that I must do so here. The citation above is from an article that I referenced. I did not write that article. It is not something that I said--Gregory Matthews.] CoAspen and aka 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Sorry, Gregory; I should have made that clear in my post. The quote was from the article at https://atoday.org/change-part-2-change-and-womens-ordination/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 On 10/25/2017 at 5:23 AM, Gregory Matthews said: The real issue dividing the Adventist Church right now is not over values or even long standing teaching as our chart readily reveals. It is all about power and control! You statement does make a lot of sense. I have had to come to terms with this in my own heart. That said - just what form of power and control are we talking about here? Is it domination over women? Is it just "staus quo"? What exactly is the underlying reason? The statment - and the article - makes a bold, and frankly, dogmatic and judgmental suggestion: That anyone choosing against WO is not doing so because of conscience, but because of a personal power trip. [Normally I do not place comments into a post that someone else has made. However, in this case I feel a need to do so. I did NOT make the statement that you attribute to me. That statement was made by the author of the article that I cited, not me--Gregory Matthews.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 17 minutes ago, Mark Leslie said: The statement - and the article - makes a bold, and frankly, dogmatic and judgmental suggestion: That anyone choosing against WO is not doing so because of conscience, but because of a personal power trip. Its an accusation that only those who accept WO have the level headedness and really, the purest sense of what is right and wrong on this issue. The article is correct. It is a power trip - Isnt it the WO crowd who constantly fling accusations and attacks at the those of us who want to protect the sanctity of our Church? Isnt it a smug and self aggrandizing posture that the WO crowd take, attempting to demoralize and demean those who differ from their opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Quote It is a power trip - Isnt it the WO crowd who constantly fling accusations and attacks at the those of us who want to protect the sanctity of our Church? Isnt it a smug and self aggrandizing posture that the WO crowd take, attempting to demoralize and demean those who differ from their opinion? In a word...NO! Predominately the opposite is what we see posted here quoting from sites opposed to WO. But all of this has been discussed to the nth degree...do a search on WO topics. JoeMo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 22 hours ago, CoAspen said: In a word...NO! Predominately the opposite is what we see posted here quoting from sites opposed to WO. But all of this has been discussed to the nth degree...do a search on WO topics. It appears the discussion didnt do a lot of good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 If you mean minds weren't changed, 'lot of good' is in the mind of the beholder. I don 't see the subject of WO as good or bad, just the attitudes. phkrause and JoeMo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 2, 2018 Administrators Share Posted February 2, 2018 I would just note that some minds have been changed as a result of discussions here. I recently was encouraged by someone that spoke to me about something I had said to her quite some time ago that changed her perspective formed from what she had always been told. She had felt the call to ministry but thought she couldn't do it. As a result of our dialog, she told me she reconsidered and went back to school to finish her theology degree. It genuinely made my day when she told me, since I so often feel like I am completely wasting my time posting anything on this topic or trying to reason through this issue with people. Maybe there really are others that just don't speak up. "Caste your bread on the water..." CoAspen, phkrause, GayatfootofCross and 1 other 4 Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 2, 2018 Author Moderators Share Posted February 2, 2018 From my perspective, the audience may extend beyond those who post in this forum. As a result, I often write with the person in mind who is not posting, but is reading the discussions. I may not know what effect I may have had on that person, but, I simply leave that alone. I do not have to know. JoeMo and Kevin H 2 Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 3, 2018 Members Share Posted February 3, 2018 I was a strident opponent of Women's Ordination. What I read here on C/A (pros and cons) and how the arguments were presented on both sides caused me to change my mind on the subject.... and not only to change my mind, but to wonder why in the world is it even an issue?! Stan, JoeMo, CoAspen and 1 other 4 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 11:34 AM, CoAspen said: If you mean minds weren't changed, 'lot of good' is in the mind of the beholder. I don 't see the subject of WO as good or bad, just the attitudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said: I would just note that some minds have been changed as a result of discussions here. I recently was encouraged by someone that spoke to me about something I had said to her quite some time ago that changed her perspective formed from what she had always been told. She had felt the call to ministry but thought she couldn't do it. As a result of our dialog, she told me she reconsidered and went back to school to finish her theology degree. It genuinely made my day when she told me, since I so often feel like I am completely wasting my time posting anything on this topic or trying to reason through this issue with people. Maybe there really are others that just don't speak up. "Caste your bread on the water..." Might have made your day, but that doesnt matter a little. What matters is what the Lord thinks about it. Makes me shudder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 So the texts about results make you shudder also...'by their fruits'. etc, etc? Your words would seem to indicate that any person who believes they are being led by God, become teachers of Gods word and have bountiful results of conversions into followers of the said God are just, well, how would you put it...? Based on your previious statements, unless they are male, there is no truth in them. Feel free to correct my understanding of your views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 3, 2018 Author Moderators Share Posted February 3, 2018 Mark Leslie: It almost sounds like: 1) You do not believe that women should have any theological training. I wonder if you believe that women should not read the Bible? If you do believe that they should read the Bible, should they only read it in their native language or should they be able to read it in the languages in which the MSS were written? 2) You believe that women should have no part in ministry as I remind you that ministry in much more than becoming a pastor. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 18 hours ago, Mark Leslie said: Makes me shudder. Why on earth would it make you shudder? One person influences another to dedicate her life to God? That makes me lift my hands in praise and ask God's blessings on Tom for boldly reaching out to encourage another person to dedicate themselves to the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 4, 2018 Members Share Posted February 4, 2018 Really? Gregory asked a few questions which were hardly mean or opinionated. Is what Gregory wrote worse than insinuating that one's view [on a non-salvational, contentious-only-amongst-humans issue] aligns with God, and that someone with a different view is invoking God's wrath? See: "Might have made your day, but that doesnt matter a little. What matters is what the Lord thinks about it. Makes me shudder." I understand that some feel the need to point out the sins of others' beliefs or opinions — and I really think some are genuinely concerned that everyone who doesn't see things the "right" way (aka the way *they* see things), are doing the work of Satan. But on an issue, such as WO, which is *not* a salvational issue, such a belief that they are doing God's will does *not* preclude anyone else from stating other opinions, asking pointed question, or otherwise making a point. And we shouldn't need to feel like we have to "walk on glass" around people who are in that "I'm stating God's will" type of group. Not only is it tiresome, but it can dampen the entire spirit of a forum to where only flowery sweet platitudes on most any subject would become the norm. We need salt and spice, along with apple pie. Tom Wetmore and JoeMo 2 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 4, 2018 Author Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2018 NOTE: My friend, The Wanderer was hasty in his post. What he posted that I had said was quite different from what I actually said. I do not believe that such was intentional on his part. Rather, I simply believe that he posted in haste without taking the time to carefully read what I actually posted. For those who may not see it: The Wanderer left out the phrase: "It almost sounds like:" IOW, I did not make a definitive statement as to what she had said. Folks, that is an important difference. Tom Wetmore 1 Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 4, 2018 Author Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2018 Do you need a hug? Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 9:31 PM, CoAspen said: So the texts about results make you shudder also...'by their fruits'. etc, etc? Your words would seem to indicate that any person who believes they are being led by God, become teachers of Gods word and have bountiful results of conversions into followers of the said God are just, well, how would you put it...? Based on your previious statements, unless they are male, there is no truth in them. Feel free to correct my understanding of your views. Its not a "correction", but a defense. This issue always comes down to the same: Anyone against WO is a male Chauvinist: "Based on your previous statements, unless they are male, there is no truth in them" Never a single coherent, systematic argument from a Biblical perspective though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 On 1/15/2018 at 11:34 AM, CoAspen said: If you mean minds weren't changed, 'lot of good' is in the mind of the beholder. I don 't see the subject of WO as good or bad, just the attitudes. Really? What about the fact that its a colossal waste of time? Now, we have brilliant people who would prefer to focus on the 3 angels message instead having to devote time to a created, fabricated issue - one that has absolutely no Biblical support. NONE. Yet, the issue is being shoved down the throats of the Adventist Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 On 2/3/2018 at 5:39 AM, Gregory Matthews said: Mark Leslie: It almost sounds like: 1) You do not believe that women should have any theological training. I wonder if you believe that women should not read the Bible? If you do believe that they should read the Bible, should they only read it in their native language or should they be able to read it in the languages in which the MSS were written? 2) You believe that women should have no part in ministry as I remind you that ministry in much more than becoming a pastor. This discussion is in the context of womens ordination. I am reponding as such. Those who are opposed to the extra-biblical concept of WO have always, adamantly stated that the issue is not one of whether or not women should be in ministry. This is on the record multitudinous times. I voted for a woman in the position of outreach leader at our Church, just to be clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 To the posters here: Sorry for the multiple posts. I think the new browser I was using is responsible for that. "Brave" seemed to have a lot of potential, and for the first week, I loved it, but now its getting ugly. Once again, please accept my apologies. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Leslie Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 One other thing. I am thrilled to be a Christian, and Adventist to boot! Wow! With that in mind, those sincere Christian Adventists who don't agree with me - I am thankful for you because I have to believe that you are Christ's own purchased possession. Sometimes a debate can make me forget that. But as I think about you, I am so glad you belong to Jesus. I shall try to keep that in mind always, and if my tone is harsh, please forgive me for that. I am fallen, and need Jesus too. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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