What about the TRINITY....have we lost our WAY?

[stinsonmarri]

23 hours ago, APL said:

yeah - and you think that is what Froom was trying to do, point out the truth by plucking out a few statements from context.  And you think I want to "hold on to something that is false" implies I believe it is false. 

 

Now that is come very convincing evidence of the "truth".  We should be like the pagans!

 

 

You mean, just like Christ?  John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. (50) And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.

 

It is true:  "Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible. It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long established traditions that proved their ruin. They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded."

What statements were made out of context, my friend; concerning Froom? Do you mind presented what I miss?

For I have not SPOKEN of MYSELF; but THE FATHER which sent ME, HE gave ME a Commandment, what I should SAY, and what I should SPEAK. And I know that HIS Commandment is LIFE EVERLASTING: whatever I SPEAK therefore, even as THE FATHER said to ME, so I SPEAK. John 12:49-50

I truly agree with these Texts, because it proves my point! THE FATHER is up in HEAVEN, while HE sent THE SON to earth, along with the aid of THE HOLY SPIRIT. It was THE HOLY SPIRIT, who used HIS UNIQUE POWERS and placed THE SON who SPIRITUAL BODY took on a fleshly body that THE FATHER MADE!

Here are the Scriptures that proves that THREE INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT BEINGS with THEIR OWN UNIQUE POWERS worked TOGETHER with THEIR POWERS from the beginning as a UNION of ONE!!!!! Read what the Hebrew word "echad," means because Adam used the same word for him and his wife!

Thou madest HIM a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst HIM with GLORY and HONOUR, and didst set HIM over the works of THY HANDS: Heb 2:7 

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an HIGH PRIEST, who is SET on THE RIGHT HAND of the Throne of THE MAJESTY in the Heavens; Heb 8:1 

Wherefore when HE cometh into the world, HE SAITH, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a BODY hast THOU PREPARED ME: Heb 10:5 

Now the birth of YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of THE HOLY SPIRIT. Mat 1:18 

And the angel answered and said unto her, ³ THE HOLY SPIRIT shall come upon thee, and ¹ THE POWER of THE HIGHEST shall OVERSHADOW thee: therefore also that ² HOLY ONE which shall be born of thee shall be called the SON of ELOHI. Luke 1:35 

And straightway coming up out of the water, HE saw the heavens opened, and THE HOLY SPIRIT like a dove descending upon HIM: Mark 1:10 

In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with ELOHIYM, and THE WORD was ELOHI. The same was in the beginning with ELOHIYM. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not anything made that was made. John 1:1-3 

Now when someone sits down, that means they must have a behind!!!! Here YAHSHUA is told by HIS FATHER to sit down on a THRONE beside HIM! Gabriel told Mary that EACH INDIVIDUAL ELOHI was working TOGETHER through her with THEIR POWERS. THE FATHER (Number ONE), THE MOST HIGH MAJESTY OVERSHADOW her! THE SON, THE HOLY ONE would be borned in her! (Number TWO) First it would be THE HOLY SPIRIT (Number THREE),  that will come upon her! When YAHSHUA reached the age and the time to start HIS WORK, HE was baptized and THE HOLY SPIRIT descending upon HIM, as THE FATHER SPOKE from Heaven. This proved of THREE SEPARATE BEINGS! Now, John is so plain, nothing was not made but by YAHSHUA  and HE was in the beginning along with HIS FATHER! Singular THEY ARE EACH CALLED ELOHI, but TOGETHER THEY ARE CALLED ELOHIYM - Plural!!!!!

Sis White said; I am paraphrasing:

We are not to think like the ancient Hebrews or the Papist. Our own ideas and opinions are infallible! Neither should certain individuals be the sole guardians of the truth and have all the knowledge; that no one have the right to search the Scriptures for themselves. Some have feared that if in even a single point they acknowledge themselves in error; other minds would be led to doubt the truth.

Many in the church feel that investigation should not be permitted, that it would tend to dissension and disunion; however the sooner investigation is done the better. If you do not have faith that YAHSHUA'S THE WORD will not stand the test of an investigation of the Scriptures, the sooner the truths are revealed the better. It will then opened the way to show those their error. We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated. It must be allowed to let go because it error! There is but ONE who is INFALLIBLE--HE who is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. She is speaking of YAHSHUA! That is what HE SAID!

You can find her exact words in Testimony to the Ministers p. 105 That is my point with Froom!

Blessings to everyone!

PS: The translators forgot to state that in many occasions the singular form of the TITLE ELOHI was used and not always ELOHIYM! When I speak of THEM INDIVIDUALLY I will used THE SINGLE TITLE; COLLECTIVELY THE PLURAL will be used!

[Gregory Matthews]

As I look at what Stinsonmarri has posted above and stated is a paraphrase of EGW, I am concerned that people may have a problem distinguishing between what she has said and what EGW has said.  As   I do not  equate her words with that of EGW, I am concerned. 

Certainly I believe that Stinsonmarri is honest at heart and would not intentionally misrepresent anything.  And there are points on which honest people might disagree.  But, I am reminded that recently she got it all wrong in her comment about Arius in which she placed him as living some 12 hundred years longer than he lived in her comment to the effect that he was a Jesuit priest.  So, I am placing what EGW actually said below, so people can compare if they wish.

The following quote is what EGW actually said on pages 105 & 106 of TM:

 

Quote

How shall we search the Scriptures in order to understand what they teach? We should come to the investigation of God’s word with a contrite heart, a teachable and prayerful spirit. We are not to think, as did the Jews, that our own ideas and opinions are infallible; nor with the papists, that certain individuals are the sole guardians of truth and knowledge, that men have no right to search the Scriptures for themselves, but must accept the explanations given by the fathers of the church. We should not study the Bible for the purpose of sustaining our preconceived opinions, but with the single object of learning what God has said. { TM 105.1}
Some have feared that if in even a single point they acknowledge themselves in error, other minds would be led to doubt the whole theory of truth. Therefore they have felt that investigation should not be permitted, that it would tend to dissension and disunion. But if such is to be the result of investigation, the sooner it comes the better. If there are those whose faith in God’s word will not stand the test of an investigation of the Scriptures, the sooner they are revealed the better; for then the way will be opened to show them their error. We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but One who is infallible—He who is the way, the truth, and the life. { TM 105.2}
Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented,
106
many do not ask, Is it true—in harmony with God’s word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices. { TM 105.3}
The Lord often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits—because it is truth. { TM 106.1}
The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they were erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. { TM 106.2}

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The following quote from the post by Stinsonmarri, is a clear example where she has cited Ellen White in such a manner that is confusing and leaves the impression that EGW may have said the opposite of what she actually said:

We are not to think like the ancient Hebrews or the Papist. Our own ideas and opinions are infallible!

One might think due to how the above is two sentences, that EGW taught that our own ideas and opinions are infallible.  What EGW actually said is that we should not think they are infallible.

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings CoAspen,

On ‎28‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 4:50 PM, CoAspen said:

The topic of the trinity is not new on this site, is comes up every now and then. My question has been and still is, what impact, if any, does  a correct view, what ever that may be, have on being a follower of Christ or salvation.  We have a new group discussing this so am interested is what the current view is. Not attempting to shut down the dialogue, just curious as to why it seem to be so important.

It depends on what system of belief you are willing to follow.

The Athanasian Creed (Part 1): Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

 

The words of Jesus:

John 17:1-3 (KJV): 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Revelation 3:14 (KJV): And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[CoAspen]

Thanks for the reply Trevor, but I don't read an answer in your reply. You have quoted someone and a couple of texts. 

Quote

 My question has been and still is, what impact, if any, does  a correct view, what ever that may be, have on being a follower of Christ or salvation. 

[debbym]

if you are righteous by a an absolutely correct understanding, then  how you think of these details  would be very important.

below is quoted from the booklet "Ten Great Gospel Truths" compiled by Robert Wieland

"Christ is a Good Shepherd who is seeking
His lost sheep even though we have not
sought Him. A misunderstanding of God’s
character causes us to think He is trying to hide
from us. There is no parable of a lost sheep
that must seek and find its Shepherd.

This truth flows naturally and logically from the gospel as Good
News (Luke 15:1-10). The false idea is that like a shopkeeper, the Lord
regards us indifferently until we take the initiative to ferret Him out from
His hiding place. The truth is that He seeks us (Psalm 119:176; Ezekiel
34:16). 1

If anyone is saved at last it will be due to God’s initiative; if
anyone is lost at last, it will be due to his own initiative (Jeremiah 31:3;
John 3:16-19).

Our salvation does not depend on our maintaining a relationship
with God; it depends on our believing that He stands at the door and
knocks—seeking to maintain that relationship with us unless we break it
off (Revelation 3:20)."

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CoAspen,

5 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Thanks for the reply Trevor, but I don't read an answer in your reply. You have quoted someone and a couple of texts.

I did not quote someone, as the Athanasian Creed is not generally credited to Athanasius, but is considered to be the standard definition of the Trinity as held by many churches. This creed makes its own claim of what must be believed to be saved.

5 hours ago, CoAspen said:

My question has been and still is, what impact, if any, does  a correct view, what ever that may be, have on being a follower of Christ or salvation.

Part of my answer is that the first text speaks of life eternal being available by a knowledge of the true God. This can be understood at two levels, a correct understanding of how God has been revealed, and also a living, active relationship with God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The second quotation was mentioned as it also gives different detail concerning our Lord Jesus Christ by comparison to the creed. Hopefully this answers the "salvation" aspect.

As far as impact on a follower is concerned, I suggest that the correct understanding must have a moral transforming effect, creating true disciples and discipleship. Christ is the pattern, the example we need to follow. Light dispels darkness and confusion in all areas of a disciple's life.

Kind regards Trevor

 

[CoAspen]

My understanding at this point in life would be as Deb has stated. A belief in Christ and not necessarily a correct understanding of what God is and isn't. Even to believe in a Christ means to believe in the supernatural, which is difficult at best. Then to decide if there a 1,2 or 3 individuals or beings requires more supernatural thinking. I  have no issue with the differeing views on the matter of 'trinity'. The Bible speaks of 3 entities, but to me is not that clear as to the physical being of those entities. What was Christ like before comming to earth? Does He still have a human form in this place called heaven or simply able to be what ever is required? So many questions, so few answers, so I am lead to believe that the intricacies of these being, or what ever one chooses to call them, is less important than to simply believe.

A rather curious, supernatural subject! Carry on.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CoAspen,

10 hours ago, CoAspen said:

My understanding at this point in life would be as Deb has stated. A belief in Christ and not necessarily a correct understanding of what God is and isn't.

I suggest that there is a balance between seeking and allowing Christ to guide us. If we simply dismiss many Biblical subjects as difficult and the unknown, then we will start to accept every concept as feasible. I share with SDAs the belief that man is mortal and returns to dust at death. Most Churches believe that man’s immortal soul goes to heaven at death. Possibly you may suggest that it does not matter, as long as we all agree that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

The parable of the Pearl of Great Price is an example of a discerning seeker. This initially is the understanding and acceptance of the gospel. One summary of this gospel is found in the following.

Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

A significant portion of the gospel is stated to be the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ. As there are many explanations of what this represents, there is now a need to be discerning, similar to the man seeking goodly pearls. Similarly on the subject of the things concerning the kingdom of God, where we need to be discerning due to the many diverse views.

Kind regards Trevor

[CoAspen]

I have the feeling that you did not read or maybe did not understand the whole of my response. 

Quote

If we simply dismiss many Biblical subjects as difficult and the unknown,.....

Did not suggest 'dismissing'.....

Quote

 ...we will start to accept every concept as feasible. 

Who is we? And what is your support? 

You seem to have gone on to another subject? Not sure about your remarks impact on 'trinity' beliefs.

Yes, I am a big believer in John 3:16 and each persons relationship with God as they understand. 

Adios

[JoeMo]

12 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Similarly on the subject of the things concerning the kingdom of God, where we need to be discerning due to the many diverse views.

There are many different views among Christians because - as the Bible says - God is beyond our understanding.  I'm with Deb and CoAspen on this.  The criteria for salvation is "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ"; not "understand the Lord Jesus Christ".  As you quoted from Acts 8 above:

12 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

When BELIEVED Phillip, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized.  I'm confident that Phillip did not spend enough time there to describe the intricacies of God; which many of us who have studied God's word for decades fail to understand.  If we have saving faith (which in my opinion does not necessarily include 100% infallible doctrine or sinlessness), we will be in the Kingdom; and our minds will be open to gladly accepting the "facts" (rather than choosing among theories) concerning the nature of God and the supernatural realm.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo, 

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

There are many different views among Christians because - as the Bible says - God is beyond our understanding.  I'm with Deb and CoAspen on this.  The criteria for salvation is "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ"; not "understand the Lord Jesus Christ".  As you quoted from Acts 8 above:

Perhaps introducing Acts 8:5,12 is slightly off topic, but yes there are many differing views on the Kingdom and the Name today amongst the Churches, but many of these ideas were introduced later. Similarly with the understanding of God the Father and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ there are many different views, and at least some of this difference was introduced in the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

When BELIEVED Phillip, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized.  I'm confident that Phillip did not spend enough time there to describe the intricacies of God; which many of us who have studied God's word for decades fail to understand. 

As far as preaching the gospel to the Samaritans, please be aware that there was initially a reasonable knowledge of the OT teachings, even with the Samaritan bias. The initial encounter with the woman at the well indicates the level of their beliefs, but then Jesus revealed himself as the source of the living water and then as the Christ. The Samaritans then returned with her and were also persuaded. Later when Jesus was steadfastly set on his mission to go to Jerusalem to suffer and die, they had refused him because they were not willing to acknowledge Jerusalem as the centre of God’s worship.

 

I suggest that as a result of the above background, and the simplicity and purity of the gospel as first preached, there was a reasonable level of understanding that established a faithful community in fellowship with the Apostles and their Jewish Christians. The fact that Acts 8:12 summarises the gospel as two categories, the Kingdom and the Name, and also states the THINGS concerning the Kingdom and the Name, indicates that was not simply believe in Jesus and you will be saved and go to heaven when you die. Even a careful consideration of Peter's speeches in Acts 2 and 3 reveal major differences with the present Church beliefs, and this teaching by Peter would reflect some of the teaching that Philip would have used when preaching Christ to the Samaritans.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

I want to apologize when I stated this: "We are not to think like the ancient Hebrews or the Papist. Our own ideas and opinions are infallible!" I meant to  say: We are not to think like the ancient Hebrews or the Papist to think that our own ideas and opinions are infallible! They are not is what EGW was stating. Pastor I did give the reference also. I know that many think in the SDA church today that there is a trinity. Once again, I say it does not make sense, and it is mainly to do with the word person. What we have done it to try and make THEM down to our level as Paul stated:

And changed THE GLORY of THE INCORRUPTIBLE ELOHIYM into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Rom 1:23 

It appears that you Pastor and others do not actually understand truly creation, I not trying to be difficult here. MICHAEL made us to look like them and not the other way around.

And ELOAHH said, LET US make man in OUR RESEMBLANCE, after OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  So ELOAHH created man in HIS OWN RESEMBLANCE, in THE RESEMBLANCE of ELOHIYM created HE him; male and female created HE them. Gen 1:26, 27 

I appreciate your sincerity about me, and I for you Pastor, but the Bible speaks for itself.

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, YAHWEH appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am THE ALMIGHTY ELAHH; walk before ME, and be thou perfect. Gen 17:1 

Behold, I send AN ANGEL before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.  Beware of HIM, and obey HIS VOICE, provoke HIM NOT; for HE WILL not pardon your transgressions: for MY NAME is in HIM. But if thou shalt indeed obey HIS VOICE, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. Ex 23:20-22 

And HE SAID unto Moses, Come up unto YAHWEH, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.  And Moses alone shall come near YAHWEH: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.  Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:  And they saw THE ELOAHH of Israel: and there was under HIS FEET as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in HIS CLEARNESS. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel HE LAID not HIS HAND: also they saw ELAHH, and did eat and drink. Ex 24:1, 2, 9-11 

And HE SAID, NAY; BUT AS THE CHIEF CAPTAIN of the host of YAHWEH AM I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto HIM, what saith MY MASTER unto HIS servant?  And THE CHIEF CAPTAIN of YAHWEH'S host SAID unto Joshua, LOOSE THY SHOE FRO OFF THY FOOT; FOR THE PLACE WHERE ON THOU STANDEST IS HOLY. And Joshua did so. Josh 5:14, 15 

Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of ELAHH. Dan 3:24, 25 

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and THE ANCIENT of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and THE HAIR OF HIS HEAD like the pure wool: HIS Throne was like the fiery flame, and HIS Wheels as burning fire. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, ONE LIKE THE SON of man came with the clouds of Heaven, and came to THE ANCIENT of Days, and they brought HIM near before HIM. Dan 7:9, 13 

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in MY FATHER’S Kingdom. Mat 26:29 

And it came to pass, as HE sat ate meat with them, HE took bread, and BLESS it, and brake, and gave to them.  And their eyes were opened, and they knew HIM; and HE Vanished out of their sight.  And as they thus spake, YAHSHUA HIMSELF STOOD in the midst of them, and SAITH unto them, PEACE BE UNTO YOU. But they were terrified and affrighted, and seem truthfully that they had seen a spirit (ghost like something dead as been falsely taught).  BEHOLD MY HANDS AND MY FEET, THAT IT IS I MYSELF: HANDLE ME, AND SEE; FOR A SPIRIT (angel) HATH NOT A HUMAN BODY AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE. Luke 24:30, 31, 36, 37, 39 (In the flesh "in a bodily form" (1650s) originally was of Jesus (Wycliffe has up the flesh, Tyndale after the flesh). An Old English poetry-word for "body" was flæsc-hama, literally "flesh-home.) Etymology Online Dictionary

Then SAITH HE to Thomas, REACH HITHER THY FINGER, AND BEHOLD MY HANDS; AND REACH HITHER THY HAND, AND THRUST IT INTO MY SIDE: AND BE NOT FAITHLESS, BUT BELIEVING. John 20:27 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1Co 15:52-56 

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS SON, whom HE HATH APPOINTED HEIR of all things, by whom also HE MADE the worlds; Who BEING THE BRIGHTESS of HIS GLORY, and THE EXACT REPRESENTATION of HIS BEING (NIV Bible), and upholding all things by THE WORD of HIS POWER, when HE HAD by HIMSELF PURGE our sins, SAT DOWN on THE RIGHT HAND of THE MAJESTY ON HIGH; having BECOME SO MUCH BETTER than the angels, as HE HATH by inheritance obtained A MORE EXCELLENT NAME than they. For unto which of the angels said HE at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:2-5

And I saw RIGHT HAND of HIM that SAT on the Throne a Book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the Throne and of the four cherubims, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD A LAMB as it had been slain, having SEVEN HORNS and SEVEN EYES, which are THE SEVEN SPIRIT ELOAHH sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:1, 6 

I do not need to say anything the Scriptures speak for themselves. Now show me anybody that the Bible says THEY ALL have one body? I would like to see that! I will say it again, the whole so call Christian majority believe the same thing, how come? Seems like a broad path is being follow by us. We can change a few words from the Catholic trinity but you are all saying the exact same thing along with all Protestants. A few see TWO and skip over THE HOLY SPIRIT, I read in my Bible THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS!

Love you all and have a happy Sabbath!

[Gregory Matthews]

This topic has gone on for a long time.  As the SDA church does teach the doctrine of the Trinity, I think that it would be well to place  here a place where one can go to see exactly what the SDA Denomination teaches about the Trinity.  The Bible is our standard.  I do not claim anything else.  But, to see what the SDA Church teaches, go to:

 https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/god/trinity/

 

[stinsonmarri]

Please let me state why I ask this question: "Now show me anybody that the Bible says THEY ALL have one body?"  I wanted you to  just to think  the same about the word godhead, a very weird word to use as if THEY had one head???? God is a singular word is it not? Head without an s also make it singular as well. So I thought showing that you cannot find one body to get the picture.  The SDA co-exist eternal divine persons what on earth does this mean? No one can break it down to explain it if someone can here please do! When did THE ALMIGHTY ONES become a plural with the word persons but one godhead just like one body? Have this word persons taking on some new strange meaning? If THEY CO-EXIST that's fine which means THEY EXIST always together! Here is the confusion singular for godhead but plural for persons???? You will not find the word persons in The Old Testament and it mention one time in the New Testament-Heb 1:3 which comes from the Greek word "hupostasis." Will you all look it up and say what is actually means, please?

Looking up the word the Greek word “theion,” godhead actually means DIVINITY, MIGHTINESS, MAJESTY, EXISTENCE, or DIVINE NATURE. Why don't we use these words, the revise versions do? I truly never understood the word godhead???? Now the other twister is the word god the Hebrew word is ELOHIYM which is plural but it is not told that many passages uses the singular word ELOHI, ELOAHH, or ELAHH (Chaldean). Now in Daniel who wrote in the language of the Chaldeans some very interesting things. I am only giving the Aramaic words that you can look up and el which does mean mighty one and I reference that to Satan. He is mighty, but not ALMIGHTY! The Restoration Bible also states this. Check out Ex 23:13! I am trying to say less and let you see Scriptures for yourself. I hope this is accepted?

The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean.  And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh. Dan 2:10 11 

I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that THE HIGH God (the right singular word ELAHH is used and not the Aramaic ELAHIN; why did the do this correct?), hath wrought toward me. How great are HIS signs and how MIGHTY are HIS Wonders, HIS Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and HIS DOMINION is from generation to generation! But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god (they used elah but I say El in both Hebrew and Aramaic to mean mighty one [Satan]), and in whom is the spirit (actually the mind, just check it out!) of the HOLY gods: (Aramaic ELAHIN should be used but they used the singular form ELAHH, why?) and before him I told the dream, saying,  O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit (mind) of the HOLY gods (the correct Aramaic ELAHIN should be used but they used the singular form ELAHH, why?) is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.  That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that THE MOST HIGH Ruleth (clearly this is speak of only THE FATHER) in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever HE WILL. And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto Heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I BLESSED THE MOST HIGH, and I PRAISE and HONOUR HIM that LIVETH FOREVER, whose DOMINION is an EVERLASTING DOMINION, and HIS Kingdom is from generation to generation: Now I Nebuchadnezzar PRAISE and EXTOL and HONOUR THE KING of Heaven, all whose works are truth, and HIS WAYS Judgment: and those that walk in pride HE is able to abase. Dan 4:2, 3, 8, 9, 25, 34, 37 

Now why the differences here?

Blessings to everyone!

[Gregory Matthews]

Moderators Note:

This forum is a discussion forum that is open to people of differing beliefs, to include both SDAs and people who are not SDA.

Stinsonmarri, is a welcome member of this forum and she is  welcome to post in this forum.  In her posts, she likes to challenge us to deeper thinking of several issues, one of which is the doctrine of the Trinity.  She is correct in her thinking that we should govern our beliefs and practices by the Bible and not by denominational statements as to doctrinal beliefs.

Officially, the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is Trinitarian as are most Christian denominations.  However, we SDAs do have some members who are not Trinitarian in their understanding of what the Bible teaches and they therefore reject the official positon that the SDA denomination has taken on this point.

While she is welcome to present her views here, it has come to a point that I feel a need to make a public statement.

*  The views that she presents here should not be taken as the   views of the SDA denomination on the issue of the Trinity.

* Her description of how she understands the doctrine of the Trinity should not be taken as how SDAs and most Christians understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

NOTE:  For those who may suggest that I should have contacted Stinsonmarri privately on this matter, I have done so, in a somewhat different manner than I have done publicly.

 

 

[debbym]

when we are willing to do God's will... understanding happens, because God is working in us and bringing about this miracle.  for now we know in part and see in part.  for now we see in a glass darkly... 

but when that which is perfect comes, we will know even as we are known.

 

sigh

 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

well, what you just posted here is a "theory" too,

I agree.  Much of the stuff I post is just my "theory"; just like much of the stuff everyone else here posts.

I miss seeing 8thdaypriest's "theories" on here. I hope she comes back soon.

You're kind of an ornery guy, Wanderer.  I appreciate that in a person.

[CoAspen]

Ya, there are  'theories' posted, but what I enjoy hearing from people is what they personal believe in, wether or not I agree is beside the point. At least I know where the person stands and I have respect for that. Ex: JoeMo does mostly say what he believes in and he will say when something is just a theory. Some people like to play both sides and that becomes difficult.

Where I used to work, an agnostic was someone I had great respect for and we remain friends to this day. Truthfulness brings about respect.

[stinsonmarri]

To Pastor and to the other SDA members; I would like to say that I became an SDA by faith in the 50’s. Back then at Church School, we learned the history of our beliefs and the trinity was not one of them. The SDA recently accepted the belief in the trinity and try to include EGW. I do not agree and she is not here to defend herself. Once upon a time we were identified as a peculiar people, but the Church as a whole has changed. I appreciate the statement that Pastor Matthew said about me and I feel it is from the heart. I truly do come here for all who are here to step back and think because the Bible says the path to Heaven is narrow. The path to destruction is broad and many are deceived. The SDA Church is not the Church I grew up in; it has changed just like Israel changed. New people have joined and now the Church is just another Protestant Church that just goes to church on Saturday. I know many come here who are not of the Adventist concept and I wanted them to know what we use to stand for.

This is what I believe and was written by the Church in 1872 and these are the Fundamental Principals that I stand for:

In presenting to the public this synopsis of our faith, we wish to have it distinctly understood that we have no articles of faith, creed, or discipline, aside from the Bible.

This is why I know for a fact that EGW did not believe in the trinity because it is not in the Bible. That was their creed the Bible and the Bible only. For those who would like to read the Books that EGW, herself wrote they were all done before she died in 1915. She did leave Manuscripts as well. You can find them on the Web just look up EGW writings. Early Writings, Testimony to the Ministers too me and one volume set are some of the most significant work she has presented base on her visions. I also take EGW statement that she is not a prophet and stand and say boldly that John the Revelator was the last prophet. I said that because of what was revealed to him not even to EGW; he was shown it all. John was given the time of Satan, his angel and the wicked complete destruction. He alone at that time was given according to Rev 1:1 what was going to take place in the last days!

I want everyone to know, that I am a presenter of facts, not opinions but base strictly from the Bible. I will say this EGW said that words in the Bible were changed and I agree with her. You can find this in Early Writings p. 220, 221 on the web. There are many versions of the Bible because of the problem with words and their meanings. How many of you know that many of the words were changed beginning in the 12-15 hundreds-the Middle Ages? Then there is grammar and contextual problems that shouldn’t be with the intelligent minds we have today. The same problem with politic is with religion people use words to make their beliefs appear right. This is wrong and it cause confusion and our youth today is sick of it. How can we all claim to believe in the Bible have so many different denominations and get this non-denominations? Who is right? How can one book have all of this confusion? Everyone think they are right, others have theory or opinions how do THE MOST HIGH fit in with all of these different views?

Somebody is right, but who? Every church today in some kind of strange way has call themselves united! Huh? Well, I honestly don’t get it? The new saying now even in the SDA Church is just believe on “Jesus,” and just have love and magically you will be save! Really!

America is known for its great laws and they have been abuse this year like never before. The so call Evangelicals who is against supposedly all sinful things have made a complete u turn that has shock the world. I have never seen anything like this year even with the elements. It is time to take things seriously. What can a man profit and loose his soul, what can you exchange for your soul? THE HEAVENLY FATHER has a Law and Commandments and they are required in order to enter into the Gates. Ex 24:12; Rev 22:14 Do you think HE will change? I think not because HIS SON came and died to prove they have not changed. It is up to each and everyone here to make a choice to obey HIM or not. Again, I am a presenter; please don’t judge me because of what I present! Just check it out like the Berea’s and see if what I present is so. I will stand by the Bible it is my creed of faith and only the things in it do I present. I will provide outside information base on facts and then leave it up to you to choose. To me that’s the only way to go!

Be bless everyone!

[Gregory Matthews]

Some of you may understand Stinsonmarri to be telling us that Ellen White has stated that the words in our Bibles have been changed by men.  Now, I understand that others may not believe that such is exactly what Sstinsonmarri said.  I am only responding as I believe that some may think that she said such.  In any case, she cited a reference from one of the books that EGW wrote.  In the  quote below, I am giving an exact quote of what EGW said, on this subject, in the place cited by Stinsonmarri.

Please look carefully at what EGW actually wrote.  You will note that at a time "when copies of it were few"  she stated that some men had changed the words.  IOW, she did not in this cited passage state that the Bibles of today (when she was alive) contained words that were changed by men.  Rather the main force of  what EGW said was to the effect that God had "preserved it from destruction" and especially "guarded" it.

 

After having given His word to man, He had carefully preserved it from destruction by Satan or his angels, or by any of his agents or representatives. While other books might be destroyed, this was to be immortal. And near the close of time, when the delusions of Satan should increase, it was to be so multiplied that all who desired might have a copy, and, if they would, might arm themselves against the deceptions and lying wonders of Satan. { EW 220.1}

I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean. . .

[CoAspen]

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

The SDA recently accepted the belief in the trinity.....

I am curious as to what you mean by 'recently'?

recently adverb 

 not long ago, a short time ago, in the past few days/weeks/months, a little while back; lately, latterly, just now.

[Gregory Matthews]

I will suggest that the context of her remark gives the answer.  She tells us that when she was in "church school" she was not taught the Trinity, rather that doctrine came in to the church at a later time.

On the assumption that she is not several hundred years old and as her photo does not suggest such, it may be assumed that she is telling us that the doctrine of the Trinity came into the SDA denomination within the past 50 years and probably less.

Of course that could be challenged.  It could probably be said that the doctrine of the Trinity came into the SDA Church prior to her birth, regardless of what she was taught.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

As to Stinsonmarri's  statement to the effect that the doctrine of the Trinity came into the denomination in recent time and after she  had attended Church School, I point you to the statement of Fundamental Beliefs published in the 1931 edition of the SDA Yearbook, on page 377, and quote below:

The following 2nd and 3rd statements of Fundamental Believe clearly show that in 1931 the SDA Church was teaching the Doctrine of the Trinity.

On this basis, I must congratulate Stinsonmarri on how well she is looking for her age, since she is telling us that she attended Church School prior to 1931.

 

2. That the Godhead, or Trinity, consists of the Eternal Father, a personal, spiritual Being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, infinite in wisdom and love; the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, through whom all things were created and through whom the salvation of the redeemed hosts will be accomplished; the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, the great regenerating power in the work of redemption. Matt. 28:19.

3. That Jesus Christ is very God, being of the same nature and essence as the Eternal Father. While retaining His divine nature He took upon Himself the nature of the human family, lived on the earth as a man, exemplified in His life as our Example the principles of righteousness, attested His relationship to God by many mighty miracles, died for our sins on the cross, was raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father, where He ever lives to make intercession for us. John 1:1, 14; Heb. 2:9-18; 8:1, 2; 4:14-16; 7:25.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is taken from a 1914 publication of the SDA Yearbook, in a statement of Fundamental Belief as published in another language.  Here it clearly teaches a Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we were teaching this  in our evangelistic work in other languages.

So, we can trace the doctrine of the Trinity as being stated  in our Fundamental Beliefs back to 1914, a time when EGW was alive, and more than 100 years ago.

I will acknowledge that in earlier times, our statements of belief did not contain a clear statement of a Trinitarian belief.  Any knowledgeable historian of SDA history would acknowledge such.  My point is simply that contrary to those who would tell us that it is a recent change in belief the doctrine of the Trinity can be traced in SDA history for more than 100 years.  In addition, those who credit this change to Froom are simply wrong.  This doctrine came into SDA belief well prior to any writings of Froom.

I encourage those who write about SDA history to be better informed.