Transgender

[Gregory Matthews]

The following article is not current, but I just discovered it.   I am posting it because I believe that it comments on a current issue that we face that has been minimally addressed. 

https://conversation.spectrummagazine.org/t/the-seventh-day-adventist-church-and-transgender-people/10282

 

[CoAspen]

Interesting, to say the least. My thoughts after reading it and the comments....I don't have answers to everything and leave it in Gods hands. Welcome to/in GOD'S church.

[Jeannieb43]

The author of that article is out of touch.   Historically, there have been more than one ordained women church elders in our denomination.

My mother, Dr. Marion Brown, was ordained as a church elder in Parkersburg, West Virginia during the 1950s; she was also a member of the General Conference Executive Committee during that same time period and she was active in service for many years, all while continuing her active medical practice also.   Dr. Josephine Benton, of the Sligo church in Takoma Park, was also a woman who was ordained; she herself was ordained to the gospel ministry, all during that same time period.

 

[LifeHiscost]

I wonder if we should question God about His narrow view re:

⁸ No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! ⁹ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,^[a] nor sodomites, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6

[Gregory Matthews]

I wonder why you did not quote verse 11 where it that  some of those people would inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[LifeHiscost]

17 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I wonder why you did not quote verse 11 where it that  some of those people would inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

Good point. Not only for others, but for myself also. Thank you for reminding me.

¹¹ And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6

The Word, "but you were sanctified", gives us each the hope we can depend upon.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[LifeHiscost]

23 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Very good point Gregory!!  Sometimes I cringe when people quote just verse 10 and think they are doing "God's special work," but nothing could be further from the truth. Why, with this point you have made, one can even prove it from the KJV which the Better Than You's so love to quote.:

THIS tells us that there is hope for everyone in Christ, and that "certain sins" do not, are not able, to banish anyone from being "washed," "sanctified" and "justified" and "in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by The Spirit of our God." In this short passage of texts, Jesus exposed the truth that some of His CURRENT followers and disciples were from out of ALL of the things listed in verses 9 & 10.  Let us not use this forum to take away this hope in Christ from people just because they are gay, transgender or any other of the  things named above. Unles, well, no. No one is saying that a thief is better in the eyes of Jesus than a gay person. Are they?

Since there was a third of the angels that were cast out of Heaven at the time of the war there, and since quoting scripture is not permissible for warning of the danger involved for fallen human beings, what better way for warning would be preferable.

God is Love1`Jesus saves! 

[Ulunruh]

This is not an easy subject. 
This world has suffered through 6000 years of sin.  And sin has messed up our genetic codes and DNA programs.   With all the hormones pumped into animals who are then sold as meat, among other chemical bombardment,  its a wonder that we aren't all totally messed up on the gender issues and other physical and psychological issues.  
 On the one hand transgender is not the way things were meant to be, and no matter how much society tries to say it's "normal" it just isn't "normal". 
 

Actually a transgender person has a very difficult life, with basically an identity crises that never really resolves no matter what road they take.

Yet Christ died for all, every person is precious in His sight, and He takes into consideration the situations in each person's life.

For some the only true identity they can find is when they come to Christ and give their lives to Him -- and know they are His child.
He can give them their identity!

The "sin" issue is impurity.   The remedy is more a matter of allowing Christ to make us pure.   What we need to remember is a whole lot of people who are comfortable in their physical gender, and therefore accepted in society, are not pure at all and fall dangerously into the 1Co 6:9 category, (notice fornicators and adulterers are also listed) while some who are uncomfortable in the gender they were born in, and may even have tried to change it, have given their lives to Christ and are being "washed"  and "sanctified".   

Yes, there is hope for everyone in Christ!!!

[Ulunruh]

The central concern of the controversy being discussed however is not about caring for the salvation  and pointing people to a sin cleansing Savior.

The controversy is about a man who transgendered to a woman and is set up as being a teacher and elder in the Hollywood SDA church, while feeling that God does not expect him/her to change.

The question raised is --
1)  We've already "softened" up on adulterers and divorced people and have them in SDA leadership roles.
2)  Is this now a push to open the door for gays and transgenders to be leaders in the SDA church as well?

Are we going step by step further and further ....
 

 

[CoAspen]

Think I will go with Wanders explanation and text quoting. 

Quote

The question raised is --
1)  We've already "softened" up on adulterers and divorced people and have them in SDA leadership roles.
2)  Is this now a push to open the door for gays and transgenders to be leaders in the SDA church as well?

I will take Christs answer to the above question, 'Who is with out sin cast the first stone'. The questions appear to have much 'piety' in the wording. Makes me remember the the religious leaders of Christs day. If all humans are sinners and continueing to sin, then who or whom should be 'leaders'? Yes, the rest of the verse says 'go and sin no more', but no where in my Bible do I find a list of perfection for church leaders. So when I read above questions it makes me wonder if we really believe salvation is for all.

[CoAspen]

Does anyone know for a fact that transgenders and gay people are not leaders in the church?

[LifeHiscost]

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

But they are still Christians. Even though they leave a verse or two out

⁷ So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up^[g] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” ⁸ And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. ⁹ Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,^[h] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. ¹⁰ When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,^[i]“Woman, where are those accusers of yours?^[j] Has no one condemned you?”

¹¹ She said, “No one, Lord.”

And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."...John 8

I think some fail to recognize that for the sins we condemn in others, so shall we be condemned if we continue in them.

  1Judge not, that you be not judged. ² For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. ³ And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?...Matt 7

²³ Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory ^[a]which God bestows and receives.

²⁴ [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,...Romans 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!         

 

[Ulunruh]

 

21 hours ago, chilco said:

This world has suffered through 6000 years of sin.  And sin has messed up our genetic codes and DNA programs.   With all the hormones pumped into animals who are then sold as meat, among other chemical bombardment,  its a wonder that we aren't all totally messed up on the gender issues and other physical and psychological issues.  
 On the one hand transgender is not the way things were meant to be, and no matter how much society tries to say it's "normal" it just isn't "normal". 
 

Actually a transgender person has a very difficult life, with basically an identity crises that never really resolves no matter what road they take.

Yet Christ died for all, every person is precious in His sight, and He takes into consideration the situations in each person's life.

For some the only true identity they can find is when they come to Christ and give their lives to Him -- and know they are His child.
He can give them their identity!

The "sin" issue is impurity.   The remedy is more a matter of allowing Christ to make us pure.   What we need to remember is a whole lot of people who are comfortable in their physical gender, and therefore accepted in society, are not pure at all and fall dangerously into the 1Co 6:9 category, (notice fornicators and adulterers are also listed) while some who are uncomfortable in the gender they were born in, and may even have tried to change it, have given their lives to Christ and are being "washed"  and "sanctified".   

Yes, there is hope for everyone in Christ!!!

I guess those who responded to the above don't like what I wrote  and feel very free to condemn, while quoting verses that one must not condemn.

Interesting.  

[Ulunruh]

The questions raised  --
1)  We've already "softened" up on adulterers and divorced people and have them in SDA leadership roles.
2)  Is this now a push to open the door for gays and transgenders to be leaders in the SDA church as well?

 

CoAspen replied:   I will take Christ's answer to the above question, 'Who is with out sin cast the first stone'.

 

So  your answer to the questions that are being raised throughout our churches is that you  have no problems with transgender or practicing gay people teaching your children  and being leaders in the church.  Am I understanding you correctly?

We aren't talking about stoning anyone,  or denying seekers, in whatever state they may be in, from being welcomed,  we are talking about who we look up to as our spiritual leaders in the church?

And yes, Wanderer, the Bible does give a list of qualifications for church leaders --

Try 1 Timothy 3

 

 

 

[CoAspen]

Quote

So  your answer to the questions that are being raised throughout our churches is that you  have no problems with transgender or practicing gay people teaching your children  and being leaders in the church.  Am I understanding you correctly?

Nothing in your previous posts said anything about 'practicing gay' people, you just added that after you were disagreed with. Tis always the pattern.......!

If we disallow any sinner from teaching out children, whom will be the teacher? Why do people always worry about teaching the children? Have you seen what life 'teaches' today? What is wrong with a transgender person? Really this discussion is like all others when the issue is discussed....SEX! Of course people try to cloud the issue by saying its a matter of sin and not sex,  ha, been down that road and still don't buy it! No discussion seems to bring out the 'piety' more than peoples views on sex. Hmmmm...wonder why that is.....

[Ulunruh]

 

Wonderer --
Go back and read all your "you" statements followed by condemnation and judgment on the questioners spiritual condition!!!  That is condemnation and judgment.  

Its  full of assumptions and condemnation and jumping to conclusion and then lashing out against those conclusions.    Why? 

 

 

 

And by the way CoAspen,

I wasn't disagreed with.  Everything posted in response to me was pure ASSUMPTION, and jumping to conclusions.

And no -- my main focus was NOT sex.  Actually a truly transgender person who undergoes the full process, pretty much destroys their ability to really enjoy sex.
A male who tries to be a female, will never actually be a female --  a woman who tries to be a male, will never actually be man.   They really don't improve their lot by changing, they just exchange one set of problems for another (often more serious) problems.  Many seriously regret making the change, but to reverse is also very dramatic and often impossible.
    
   It is IDENTITY crises.   Have you seen what this transgender wave is doing to children?   Have you seen what it does to their  IDENTITY ?    Have you studied into the psychological damage it can do them to be exposed to this?  Young people approaching puberty and uncomfortable with their changing bodies (which is a very natural thing for most teenagers) being taught that gender isn't based on body parts, and are encouraged to evaluate what gender they want to be --they  decide they want to transgender, -- so they go on puberty blocking drugs, hormone drugs,  till they aren't really any gender,. really.   Girls get their breasts removed.  Body parts are mutilated,  It ISN'T healthy!   And later a lot of them regret the whole thing!

I fully agree we need to be sympathetic to people caught in this problem.     

But the wave that is facilitating these things and the HUGE "contempt" heaped on anyone questioning it, is not a good thing.

 

 

 

 

[CoAspen]

To each their own. Unless a person walks in an others shoes......well you know the rest. Speaking of assumptions and partial but incomplete info..

[Gregory Matthews]

In discussions of this nature, people often talk over the heads of the others without really understanding what is being said by the other side and they may have differing understandings of the meanings of the words that they use

.For example:

Some people define the word "homosexual" by lifestyle and practice, while others define it by sexual preference.  Those are major differences and if people involved in discussions on the subject do not understand the differing perspectives, responsible communication will not take place.  certainly there is unlikely to be a common understanding.

NOTE:  This issue is somewhat like that of alcoholism.  I have a sister who openly admits that she is an alcoholic.  However, on her 4th try to give it up she succeeded.  She has been dry for decades.  She does not drink alcoholic beverages.  Yet, she openly acknowledges that she is an alcoholic and she would not be offended my me stating publicly that she is an alcoholic.  She is not an alcoholic by present practice as that is not how she defines it.  She defines it in terms of what she knows to be her issue, her weakness and her failing.

As to the discussion on transgender people.  I find the posts to have a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation.  I do not intend to go into detail.  I will simply say I am dumbfounded by any implication that such can not enjoy sexual activity.  On the assumption that such is not really intended for this public forum, I will leave it at that.

As to the Elder in the Hollywood congregation:  How much about this do we as the SDA public really need to know?  In SDA practice, individual congregations have the authority to decide who they admit to  membership and who they elect to positions of leadership.  Can we not trust them to make the correct decisions and for the Lord to correct them when they are wrong?  The Church is not perfect.  No amount of public discussion will make it perfect.  Sometimes we just need to leave it in the hands God.  Sometimes when we think we have knowledge of all important aspects of an issue we do not.  Sometimes there are additional facts of which the public is not aware and does not have a need to know.  I am personally aware of such situations in both the past and in more recent times.

 

[LifeHiscost]

12 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

No one has been "condemned" in this topic; except transgendered and the like, but as far as my actions and posting, I did not condemn anyone. I did condemn something that has been done in this topic, but no person has been condemned in any way.

 

Oh, great. So now he gets the judgment doilies out to put on the table because he cant worm his way out of the theological mess that he just typed out.t "Bible thumpers."

Benjamin Franklin built his character around 13 virtues — and following his weekly plan could change your life

http://www.businessinsider.com/benjamin-franklin-virtues-weekly-plan-2018-1       

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Ulunruh]

I agree that there is a lot of misinformation on this subject.   Yet, is it a subject to be ignored -- especially as the discussion moved to children?  

The question was asked in a previous post about a transgender person teaching our children.  Teachers are "role models" to children whether they intend to be or not.

So the discussion  turned to children.

I realize this is a controversial subject and doctors have been fired because they spoke against encouraging children to change their gender.
The approach of those doctors was to -- wait, try to help the child to adapt into life with the body they were born with and if that fails the doctor was OK with them changing once they were well into adulthood.   But those doctors  were fired, and  their approach is now treated with contempt in the clinical world, the new way is  to start "treatment" as soon as puberty begins.  
It's been reported that in the last few years children coming in to clinics for gender change has increased 1000%
And the procedures to effect that change are not easy or even proven to be safe. 

It is NOT misinformation that puberty blockers are being prescribed to children at the onset of their puberty., and hormone treatment begins soon after that. 

The BC Provincial Health Services declares:  If health care providers refuse to provide puberty blockers, it can cause additional distress, and may lead to anxiety and depression. Withholding puberty blockers and hormone therapy is not a neutral option,

They say it is "quite safe" but acknowledge that there are no tests to prove that, and we  won’t know the long-term effects until the first people to take puberty-blockers get older. 

The next step is hormone treatment.   
And yes, surgery is the step after that.   And surgery is quite altering.   And no I won't go into details on that.

See
The American College of Pediatricians call on transgender treatment of children

 

  

[CoAspen]

Teachers are role models, that is a given. So, if the teacher is female, does that mean boys want to be more like a female and girls more like the male teacher, even to the extreme of 'changing? I think we can safely say No! The 'suggestion' is that having a transgender teacher or gay  teacher is more persuasive to gender 'identity'! Really? Much fear do I hear. 

[Stan]

I have worked with Trangendered people,  I would not trade my lot in life with theirs.  It is not as cut and dried as some might think.

 

Sure some are 'casual'.in their need, others live in Hell.

[Jessie-Jess]

On 1/14/2018 at 8:38 AM, The Wanderer said:

Jesus exposed the truth that some of His CURRENT followers and disciples were from out of ALL of the things listed in verses 9 & 10.  Let us not use this forum to take away this hope in Christ from people just because they are gay, transgender or any other of the  things named above. Unles, well, no. No one is saying that a thief is better in the eyes of Jesus than a gay person. Are they?

That was Paul...

[Jessie-Jess]

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Who do you suppose Paul was speaking for/through?

It doesn't matter. That wasn't Jesus talking to his disciples. It was Paul talking to people who converted to the Christian faith. It's not a direct quote from Christ. It's a quote from Paul. 

[Ulunruh]

Quote

CoAspen wrote: Teachers are role models, that is a given. So, if the teacher is female, does that mean boys want to be more like a female and girls more like the male teacher, even to the extreme of 'changing? I think we can safely say No! The 'suggestion' is that having a transgender teacher or gay  teacher is more persuasive to gender 'identity'! Really? Much fear do I hear. 

 

In Christian circles a female teacher is to model  Christian womanhood, a male teacher is to model Christian manhood.
In the family the ideal situation is a father modeling Christian manhood, and a mother modeling Christian womanhood.

Children need both male and female role models.   Those who grow up basically with only female guardians  (which seems to be happening more and more) they have a harder time establishing their own identity.  Many boys today don't know what it means to be a good, responsible man because they don’t have a man in their lives who modeled Christina manhood.  No matter how great a mother is, she cannot replace what a father provides to a child.  And the opposite is also true.  Children need a mother figure.  Girls need a mother to model Christian womanhood for them.   It's a challenge for mothers and fathers! 

The issue of modeling clear gender identities is important --

It is a huge issue in the public schools where some are wanting to blur gender identity while others are against it.
 

https://www.christianpost.com/news/dozens-of-parents-students-leave-calif-elementary-school-system-after-board-oks-transgender-books-200049/

 

 

Basically (and some will probably disagree) but I see the whole agenda as being against the family.

Back in the 1950's school books and readers generally modeled the family unit as father, mother, and children.
Many may still remember Dick and Jane and Sally, with Mother and Father, and pets, Spot and Puff.

Then the 1960's hit and the marriage fidelity and commitment came under attack.
Next the school books and readers were changed to contain a lot of single parent "families" as being "normal".
After all the reasoning went -- it's only teaching them "acceptance" of single families.
Actually it was undermining the ideal family unit.

Next came the gay agenda.
Now school books were being purged of a lot of the readers and books modeling the family unit as father, mother and children.
And the stories that remained of a complete family,  it was usually the kids who knew everything, and the parents (especially the father) were usually pictured as being "old fashioned" and not with the times.
The new wave brought in books with stories of having "two fathers" or "two mothers"

And now -- the transgender wave
Yey -- there isn't any such thing as manhood and womanhood any more -- it's all fluid and changeable!
Books for young children featuring a baby boy who changes into a girl, and the other way around.

Of course it's all presented as being under the umbrella of "acceptance"
But is it really about acceptance or is about breaking down basic family units and values
Is the goal of humanities arch enemy, Satan,   to destroy the family unit  for he knows if he can destroy that -- he has destroyed the very fiber of church and nation.