SDA Teaching on the Trinity

[APL]

19 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This new human being, was indwelt by God His Father, from the moment of His birth. 

From His birth, or from His conception? 

[8thdaypriest]

4 minutes ago, APL said:

From His birth, or from His conception? 

Don't know. 

You have a passage that would indicate which.

[APL]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Don't know. 

There are those that claim life does not start until birth, the first breath, ignoring the fact that breath comes to the unborn child by its mother. There are those that claim Christ did not come until that which was in Mary's body was born, and somehow possessed the body, like a separate soul.  There are those that claim Christ resurrected Himself!!!  Your answer is at least honest. 

[stinsonmarri]

On 5/12/2018 at 9:50 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus also prayed that WE would be ONE with the Father.   That doesn't make US equal with the Father, any more than it made Jesus equal with His Father.

"The HEAD of Christ is God."  (1Cor 11). 

8thdaypriest: If you notice, I said for me! You see it does not matter to me about equality of THE FATHER and SON; what matters to me is THEIR saving GRACE! When I read a word from the Bible that appears to be misunderstood, I check the word out. I realize that the KJV used words that are not understood. I understand that because of this problem, is why there are so many beliefs and all claiming to believe in the same thing but we don't. Why is that- it has to do with words and understanding.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to ME: seeing thou hast forgotten the Law of thy ELOHIYM,  I will also forget thy children. Hos 4:6 SACRED KJV

Now, take the word "begotten" in John 3:16; to me it appears to mean that YAHSHUA came from HIS FATHER! So what I do is look up the word in two ways:

1. Interlinear: I go here to see if all the words provided in English are in the original script. Some words are added truly base on the scholars belief and not what the script provides. That take away what was really said regardless of any language. To me that adding to the Bible. Now that is how I study and understand to show myself approval.

2. Lexicon: Now I see the original word and look at the meaning and how it is applied. Is translated or transliterated which these two words need understanding also.

a.      Translation is the process of translating words or text from one language into another. If you process a word; the step that is used might not always be correct, or maybe once, again base on the translator belief. To me this is serious with the word that he chooses correctly the word to what the Hebrew or Greek writer actually meant. This has been a major problem in translating. The Protestant translators used the Catholic Latin Vulgate to translate their work into English! Too me that's a big problem within itself, you are going to translate from what you are protesting against? Briefly the Greek manuscripts themselves had flaws because we now know that the disciples writers also Paul were Hebrews and used this language or it close relation, the Aramaic to spread the Gospel. This is known as a fact due to many of the words used are not Greek expressions. Why is this so important, well that why the Bible saids to study. Which actually mean to research it out. We all have gifts and ones gift concerning what I am providing along with other gifts can be used together to unite the truth with the help of THE HOLY SPIRIT!

b. Transliterate: is simply transferring words of a language exactly to word that means the same in the other language. This is truly better and help in the knowledge of understanding. However, we still must be realistic; languages being confounded and men problem, regardless of their profession are not always neutral base on one's belief system. This factor always come into play and that is why we have all these various Protestants beliefs all claiming to believe the same? Hum! I can get more technical or scholastic with really providing Exegesis or Eschatological terms, but to me simplicity is the best.

On the word "begotten," this makes sense:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance- “monos:”alone, only, by themselves, to continue to be present to be held, or kept, continually to continue to be.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon-“genos:” same nature.

MICHAEL did not come from HIS FATHER, HE like HIS FATHER always exist, THEY  by THEMSELVES continue to BE PRESENT, this include THE HOLY SPIRIT, who never speaks of HIMSELF. THEY are ALL of the same NATURE and here is the proof:

And ELOHIYM said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So ELOHIYM created man in HIS OWN IMAGE, in THE IMAGE of ELOHIYM created HE him; male and female created he them. SACRED KJV Gen 1: 26, 27 

A creation is never equal to its creator!

This is what equality is clear to me! According to the Etymology Dictionary equality it states:

“Similarity, likeness" (also sometimes with reference to civil rights)!

I would like it be shown in the Bible that HE that always was DIVINE! Humanity was wrap in Divinity! YAHSHUA  prove that:

And after six days, YAHSHUA  took Peter and Jacob, and his brother John, and brought them up into a high mountain privately. And HE was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothing became white as the light. Mat 17:1, 2 HRB

But Peter and they that were with HIM were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw HIS GLORY, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32 HRB

Therefore doth MY FATHER Love ME, because I lay down MY LIFE, that I might take it again. John 10:17 KJV

YAHSHUA said to her, I AM the RESURRECTION and THE LIFE. John 11:25 HRB

For HE is THE BRIGHTNESS of HIS GLORY, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE of HIS BEING, and upholding all things by the power of HIS WORD; having made purification of our sins through HIMSELF, HE Sat down on THE RIGHT of THE MAJESTY on HIGH, Heb 1:3 HRB

And when I saw HIM, I fell at HIS FEET, as dead. And HE put HIS RIGHT HAND  on me, Saying to me, Do not fear. I AM THE FIRST and LAST, and THE LIVING ONE; and I became dead; and, behold, I AM LIVING FOREVER and EVER. Amen. And I have the keys of the grave, and of death. Rev 1:17, 18 HRB

YAHSHUA never used HIS POWER, HE relied  on HIS FATHER as we relied on THE HOLY SPIRIT. Through HIM are we able to get to THE SON and THE FATHER. Flashes of DIVINITY was seen as HE threw over those tables in the Sanctuary!!!!!

So my friend in my simple way of thinking I accept THEIR EQUALITY! This is now just my choice that I am presenting to you. However, you as everyone here have a right to choose for yourself!

Happy Sabbath and be bless, also blessing go out to all the mothers!

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, APL said:

There are those that claim life does not start until birth, the first breath, ignoring the fact that breath comes to the unborn child by its mother. There are those that claim Christ did not come until that which was in Mary's body was born, and somehow possessed the body, like a separate soul.  There are those that claim Christ resurrected Himself!!!  Your answer is at least honest. 

I do NOT believe that Christ resurrected Himself.  The NT is clear.  Christ was resurrected BY His Father.

On the question of when life begins:

Exodus 21:22 "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.   23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, (NIV)

The loss of a fetus was not to be regarded as a "serious injury", according to the LORD's instruction.  Rabbinical records tell us that the offender would only be "fined" IF the fetus was male.  Doesn't sound like a fetus was equated with a person already born and breathing.  

Do you see why I have questions? 

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Some point to this verse to support claims that a life begins at conception, but the verse says "before I formed you in the womb".  To me, that could just as easily mean, before Jeremiah was conceived.   The LORD sees the future, and knows what will be.  I don't think anyone is claiming that Jeremiah was alive, and a person, before he was even conceived. 

[APL]

I agree with you, that The Father resurrected Christ. As to the unborn, Luke 1:41-42 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: (42) And she spoke out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

 

What was in both wombs were alive and both significant.

[8thdaypriest]

38 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do NOT believe that Christ resurrected Himself.  The NT is clear.  Christ was resurrected BY His Father.

On the question of when life begins:

Exodus 21:22 "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.   23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, (NIV)

The loss of a fetus was not to be regarded as a "serious injury", according to the LORD's instruction.  Rabbinical records tell us that the offender would only be "fined" IF the fetus was male.  Doesn't sound like a fetus was equated with a person already born and breathing.  

Do you see why I have questions? 

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Some point to this verse to support claims that a life begins at conception, but the verse says "before I formed you in the womb".  To me, that could just as easily mean, before Jeremiah was conceived.   The LORD sees the future, and knows what will be.  I don't think anyone is claiming that Jeremiah was alive, and a person, before he was even conceived. 

My personal view of a developing fetus is like this.  God is creating a person.  Who am I to interfere while God is creating? 

[8thdaypriest]

5 minutes ago, APL said:

I agree with you, that The Father resurrected Christ. As to the unborn, Luke 1:41-42 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: (42) And she spoke out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

 

What was in both wombs were alive and both significant.

My personal view of a developing fetus is like this.  God is creating a person.  Who am I to interfere while God is creating?  That is my answer to the abortion question. I cannot tell you if the fetus is a person, or a person in process. 

Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.  Doesn't say the "babe" in her womb was filled with the Holy Spirit. Maybe the babe "leapt" in response to what Mary felt as she was filled with the Spirit.

[APL]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

My personal view of a developing fetus is like this.  God is creating a person.  Who am I to interfere while God is creating? 

Does God cause trisomy-21, Down's Syndrome?  But I digress..

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, APL said:

Does God cause trisomy-21, Down's Syndrome?  But I digress..

OK - I'll digress.  Genetic defects are caused by defects in our genes - caused mostly by radiation from the sun.  But also by the ongoing process of death, which "all in Adam" experience. 

When massive genetic defects are identified, which guarantee retardation, or a very short, very painful life expectancy - if a developing fetus is so damaged by forces of nature,  that normal life outside the womb, will be impossible, I would not frown on aborting.   Just my opinion.  

I'm also in favor of assisted easy death with dignity,  for those who are terminal, are in severe unmanageable pain, or whose dementia has progressed beyond recognition of significant others, or ability to communicate (assuming the person requested this assistance prior to reaching this point).  We treat our pets better than we treat people.   In my opinion.   Nursing homes make money, keeping human bodies alive in a vegetative state.  And no - I don't believe God would punish me for such.  It's already in my Living Will.

[APL]

Digression continued: actually there is a more fundamental problem with our genes than the sun, and in fact that problem is why the sun causes damage.  Over half of our DNA is non-original, composed of transposable elements (TE).  See: Transposable Elements.  The Sun causes damage most likely in areas of TEs where there is a higher concentation of T and A base pairs which only have a double covallent bond vs a triple at the G and C pairs in the DNA.  There is even a hypothesis that all disease, including heart disease, cancer, autoimmune and ultimately all aging and death is a results of TEs in the DNA.

As for abortions and assisted suicide, I for one could not participate in them, but cannot judge those that do. I have many friends and colleagues that have participated in these procedures.  I certainly would not want to have a miserable life prolonged by artificial means. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/26/2018 at 9:39 PM, APL said:

Digression continued: actually there is a more fundamental problem with our genes than the sun, and in fact that problem is why the sun causes damage.  Over half of our DNA is non-original, composed of transposable elements (TE).  See: Transposable Elements.  The Sun causes damage most likely in areas of TEs where there is a higher concentation of T and A base pairs which only have a double covallent bond vs a triple at the G and C pairs in the DNA.  There is even a hypothesis that all disease, including heart disease, cancer, autoimmune and ultimately all aging and death is a results of TEs in the DNA.

Waaaay over my head.

[APL]

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Waaaay over my head

My point - it is not the sun.  ?

[teresaq]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:59 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

It should be noted that scholars today think that the early Adventists who rejected the Trinity doctrine did not understand it.

I think that is too funny! lol

In general people have pretty much made up their minds as to what they choose to believe whatever it is, so that is as far as I'm willing to go for the moment.

[ReturntoDar]

Scholars today have rejected many things Ellen White confirmed as truth. They have done this by declaration that the pioneers "didn't understand". They have done this because they don't realize how deep they are in "Laodicea".

Ellen White was very clear: "God is the FATHER of Christ. Christ is the SON of God." That, alone, is quite sufficient to answer virtually every reasonable question on who the Father is and who His Son is. This is not complicated, "scholars" have entirely missed the point.

Jesus is the express image of His Father (declares the prophet). I take that to mean in all regards. Ellen White also declares that Jesus is the same substance of His Father. In a similar manner, we are the same substance of our parents. Jesus, who is eternal in all respects, nevertheless, came from His Father (of the same substance). When? In eternity, before time began.

Wait, before "time began"? Ellen White tells us exactly WHEN time began, when sin entered. She continues, when sin is fully eradicated, we will return to "eternity". The ceaseless ages which have no beginning and no end.

How are these thing possible, the "scholar" asks! Silly scholar, trying to discover the mysteries of God BEFORE you will believe? It will never be revealed to those who ask just questions! Yet, to the simple man of faith, it is enough.

God is not limited by time in any regard. He can make it stand still, go backward and have no relevance to Himself in any degree. Einstein caught a glimpse of this: "time is relative".

[teresaq]

As I said, each seems to have pretty much made up our minds as to what we believe so there isn't much possibility of a dialogue.

[Gustave]

The 1st Christian Council was held in Acts Chapter 15 and as with any piece of ham it has two sides. The Council of Acts stated that the men which came from Judea had NO AUTHORITY to teach what they were teaching and were WRONG in what they were teaching. As is always the case there are always folks who reject / rebel against authority and go their own way. 

In Acts 15 we know that some "spun off" from the Apostolic Church and by golly formed their own Church that was true to Jesus' teachings, making sure the brethren were circumcised, followed the ceremonial laws in the Books of Moses and everything else they were advocating. 

A Council was held in 4th century which (like Acts 15) set things straight for believers and like Acts 15 some of the people rebelled against the Church and went their own way. This type of rebellion is really old hat. It's been around and documented as early as the incident of Korah in the Book of Moses. 

 

[ReturntoDar]

"God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son." {8T 268.3}

Prophecies Already Made Plain—"The Lord wants all to understand His providential dealings now, just now, in the time in which we live. There must be no long discussions, presenting new theories in regard to the prophecies which God has already made plain." Manuscript 32a, 1896. {Ev 199.1

Jesus, the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are very clear on who the "ONE true God" is and who His Son is. All these musings of men offering their various opinions, from the 5th century to today, are without merit.

[Gustave]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:47 AM, ReturntoDar said:

"God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son." {8T 268.3}

Prophecies Already Made Plain—"The Lord wants all to understand His providential dealings now, just now, in the time in which we live. There must be no long discussions, presenting new theories in regard to the prophecies which God has already made plain." Manuscript 32a, 1896. {Ev 199.1

Jesus, the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are very clear on who the "ONE true God" is and who His Son is. All these musings of men offering their various opinions, from the 5th century to today, are without merit.

You don't get something you already "have". 

The "new theories" mentioned in your 2nd quote was attacking the Trinity Doctrine which, according to the SDA Pioneers and Ellen White, DESTROYED THE PERSONALITY (hominid flesh body) of the Father. 

As you know, the Personality of God was a "PILLAR DOCTRINE" of the SDA Church - that Doctrine was extremely well defined.