Explaining the Trinity

[B/W Photodude]

[TrevorL]

Greetings Photodude,

Explaining the God of the Bible: There is one God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards Trevor

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

Explaining the God of the Bible: There is one God the Father. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

You forgot the Holy Spirit! Not too argue with you about it, but my Bible (KJV) pretty well explains it all.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again B/W Phototube,

2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

You forgot the Holy Spirit! Not too argue with you about it, but my Bible (KJV) pretty well explains it all.

The following is a good example from the KJV where all three are mentioned, but their relationship does not seem to line up with your diagrams:

Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Yes I agree that the subject has been sufficiently canvassed from both perspectives.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[B/W Photodude]

From Jesus himself:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:18-19

A couple of quarters ago, the Sabbath school lessons were on the Holy Spirit. If you can find one of those quarterlies, you might benefit from a careful study of the lessons.

One of the mothers of the disciples asked that her two sons be allowed to sit, one on the right and one on the left hand of the throne of Jesus. Apparently, she didn't realize that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. Given that you can have one  person sitting on each side of the throne of the Father, who sits on his left hand side?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again B/W Photodude,

5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

From Jesus himself:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:18-19

Yes, God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and God's power, the Holy Spirit all have the one Name. This Name is revealed in the OT as Yahweh, and Jesus was a development of the Name and manifested God's Name. The Name Jesus also incorporates the Yahweh Name and can be understood as meaning Yah's salvation. Salvation now can also be stated to be in Jesus' Name Acts 4:10-12 as Jesus is the focus of the salvation available and the means through whom Yahweh makes His salvation available. Jesus is the Saviour.

5 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

One of the mothers of the disciples asked that her two sons be allowed to sit, one on the right and one on the left hand of the throne of Jesus. Apparently, she didn't realize that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. Given that you can have one  person sitting on each side of the throne of the Father, who sits on his left hand side?

The Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, now sits on the right hand of God, and this shows that Jesus is not God. During the 1000 years reign of Jesus upon the earth the Apostles will sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. This indicates that two of the Apostles will sit on either side of Jesus.

Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 3:21-22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Regarding Luke 1:35, there is no mention of a supposed incarnation. Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father is the father of Jesus by means of His power, the Holy Spirit, while Mary is his mother. This is what we believe and teach our children. Jesus was a human being.

Kind regards Trevor

[Bill Cork]

"Jesus was a human being."

Well, yes, according to his human nature.  But John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."

And John 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life,^[ and the life was the light of men. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son^[ from the Father, full of grace and truth." 

And Colossians 1, "by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

And Hebrews 1, "whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power." “Let all God's angels worship him.”

And the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal power, but is a person, always spoken of with a personal pronoun, "He."

John 14:16-17. "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of the truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you."

John 14:26. "But the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, Hewill teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

John 15:26. "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me."

John 16:7-8. "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world..."

John 16:13-15. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose [it] to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose [it] to you."

There is no place in the New Testament for either a merely human Son nor for an impersonal Holy Spirit. There is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Bill Cork,

10 hours ago, Bill Cork said:

"Jesus was a human being."

Well, yes, according to his human nature.  But John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am."

Yes Jesus was a human being. I cannot understand how Jesus as a child could also have a Divine mind as well. We are told that Jesus increased in wisdom Luke 2:52. I stated earlier I believe that Luke 1:35 teaches that God the Father was Jesus’ father and Mary was his mother, and as a result the child born was the Son of God, not God the Son. The KJV translates the same phrase from John 8:58 in John 8:24, 28 as “I am (he)”, and this is not a direct quotation of Exodus 3:14. Rather I believe that the correct translation of Exodus 3:14 is “I will be” and this is given by Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins. It is confirmed by Exodus 3:12 and 6:1-8

 

10 hours ago, Bill Cork said:

And John 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life,^[ and the life was the light of men. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son^[ from the Father, full of grace and truth." 

Have you considered that it is The Word that was pre-existent, not Jesus. This is speaking about how the wisdom and character of God the Father came to be embodied in Jesus, the Son of God.

 

10 hours ago, Bill Cork said:

And Colossians 1, "by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

And Hebrews 1, "whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power." “Let all God's angels worship him.”

I believe that these speak of how God created the natural creation with Jesus in mind, and Jesus is the creator of the new creation.

 

10 hours ago, Bill Cork said:

There is no place in the New Testament for either a merely human Son nor for an impersonal Holy Spirit. There is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Jesus is much more than a merely human son, as he is the Son of God full of grace and truth. There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's power Luke 1:35.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

You can all quote the Scriptures, but the word person was put in the Bible-simple. Here are the clear facts from Strong Dictionary for the word person!

G5287

hupostasis

hoop-os'-tas-is

From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence, confident, person, substance.

Total KJV occurrences: 5

 

G4383

prosōpon

pros'-o-pon

From G4314 and ὤψ ōps (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.

Total KJV occurrences: 78

11 verses found, 11 matches

Matthew	2 verses found	2 matches
Mark	1 verse found	1 match
Luke	1 verse found	1 match
1 Corinthians	1 verse found	1 match
2 Corinthians	1 verse found	1 match
Galatians	1 verse found	1 match
Ephesians	1 verse found	1 match
Hebrews	2 verses found	2 matches
2 Peter	1 verse found	1 match

 

The Bible does not use the plural word persons and the ghost explain how this word means THE HOLY SPIRIT. When did HE and YAHWEH ever became human? The Bible clearly shows that YAHSHUA had what will be changed into an immortal body that does not have flesh nor blood. They cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven!

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Co_15:50 

Happy Sabbath!

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I am confused as to the point that Stinsonmarri is attempting to make.  Of course the English word "person" is not found in the Greek New Testament.  That goes without saying. 
There are probably five (5) different Greek words that have been translated as the English word "person." 

Frankly, there are several aspects of her post that I simply to not understand as to the point that she is attempting to make.  But, as that may simply be ignorance on my part, I will not comment on them.  Rather, I will comment on one aspect, as I understand it:

I assume that in citing the Greek word that she has transliterated as "hupostasis,"  she is thinking about Hebrews 1:3.  In her reference to Strong's, she clearly illustrates my position that it is wrong to use either Strong's or Young's to define a word.  Those two books are best used to determine how a Hebrew/Greek word has been translated.  That is where they excel.  If you want to define a Hebrew/Greek word, use a  Lexicon.

Arndt & Gingrich give a much better definition of the Greek word used in Hebrews 1:3.  They define that word as standing in contrast to something that is appears to be real, but actually is not real.  IOW, that Greek word is stating that something is actual, reality, substantial, the essence.

It should be noted that the NKJV translates that part of Hebrews 1:3 as:

who being . . . the express image of His person, . . .

  

[stinsonmarri]

It is very simple what I am trying to say. The word person is a made up word by the KJV. SDA should know better, but they don't or won't! Like in Israel the priest made up things when YAHWEH have not spoken. It very clear what I present also I give the references as well. I am excuse that I say things that you can not understand. I never call them persons which by the way is not in the Bible as also the word trinity! Yet, you cannot understand but as you stated:

"Of course the English word "person" is not found in the Greek New Testament." Then, well pray, tell why do you and others are saying that they are three persons? I am at a lost here?

 "I assume that in citing the Greek word that she has transliterated as "hupostasis,"  she is thinking about Hebrews 1:3.  In her reference to Strong's, she clearly illustrates my position that it is wrong to use either Strong's or Young's to define a word.  Those two books are best used to determine how a Hebrew/Greek word has been translated.  That is where they excel.  If you want to define a Hebrew/Greek word, use a  Lexicon."

The Greek word "prosopon," is commonly use. Let provide the Lexicon, shall we!

The Bible Hub.com

◄ 4383. prosópon ►

Strong's Concordance prosópon: the face Original Word: πρόσωπον, ου, τό Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: prosópon Phonetic Spelling: (pros'-o-pon) Short Definition: the face, countenance, surface Definition: the face, countenance, surface. NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origin from pros and óps (an eye, face) Definition the face NASB Translation ahead* (2), appearance (5), before* (2), coming* (1), face (37), faces (5), openly (1), outwardly* (1), partial* (3), partiality (1), people (1), person (1), persons (1), presence (11), sight (1). Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 4383: πρόσωπον πρόσωπον, προσώπου, τό (from πρός and ὤψ, cf.μέτωπον), from Homer down; the Sept. hundreds of times for פָּנִים, also for אַפַיִם, etc.; 1. a. the face, i. e. the anterior part of the human head: Matthew 6:16, 17; Matthew 17:2; Matthew 26:67; Mark 14:65; Luke (); (T Tr WH omit; Lachmann brackets the clause); Acts 6:15; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 13, 18; (); Revelation 4:7; Revelation 9:7; Revelation 10:1; τόπρόσωπον τῆς γενέσεως, the face with which one is born (A. V. his natural face), James 1:23; πίπτειν ἐπίπρόσωπον (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 27, 1 n.; 122 (116)) and ἐπί τό πρόσωπον, Matthew 17:6; Matthew 26:39; Luke 5:12; Luke 17:16; 1 Corinthians 14:25; (Revelation 7:11 Rec.; ἔπεσαν ἐπί τά πρόσωπα, Revelation 11:16; Revelation 7:11 G L T Tr WH); ἀγνωυμενος τίνι τῷπροσώπῳ, unknown to one by face, i. e. personally unknown, Galatians 1:22; bereaved of one προσώπῳ, οὐ καρδία (A. V. in presence, not in heart), 1 Thessalonians 2:17; κατά πρόσωπον, in or toward (i. e. so as to look into) the face, i. e. before, in the presence of (see κατά, II. 1 c.): opposed to ἀπών, 2 Corinthians 10:1; with τίνος added, before (the face of) one, Luke 2:31; Acts 3:13; ἔχω τινα κατάπρόσωπον, i. e. to have one present in person (A. V.face to face), Acts 25:16; ἀντέστην κατάπρόσωπον, I resisted him to the face (with a suggestion of fearlessness), Galatians 2:11 (κατά πρόσωπονλέγειν τούς λόγους, Polybius 25, 5, 2; add Job 16:8; but in Deuteronomy 7:24; Deuteronomy 9:2; Judges 2:14; 2 Chronicles 13:7, ἀντιστῆναι κατά πρόσωποντίνος simply denotes to stand against, resist, withstand); τά κατά πρόσωπον the things before the face, i. e. open, known to all, 2 Corinthians 10:7. Expressions modelled after the Hebrew: ὁρᾶν τόπρόσωπον τίνος, to see one's face, see him personally, Acts 20:25; Colossians 2:1; ἰδεῖν, 1 Thessalonians 2:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:10; θεωρεῖν, Acts 20:38 (cf. θεωρέω, 2 a.); particularly, βλέπειν τόπρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ (see βλέπω, 1 b. β.), Matthew 18:10; ὁρᾶν τό πρόσωπον τοῦ Θεοῦ (see ὁράω, 1), Revelation 22:4; ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ πρόσωπον τοῦΘεοῦ, to appear before the face of God, spoken of Christ, the eternal priest, who has entered into the heavenly sanctuary, Hebrews 9:24; in imitation of the Hebrew אֵל־פָּנִים פָּנִים we have the phrase πρόσωπον πρός πρόσωπον, face (turned (see πρός, I. 1 a., p. 541b)) to face (εἶδον τινα, Genesis 32:30; Judges 6:22): tropically, βλέπω namely, τόν Θεόν, see God face to face, i. e. discern perfectly his nature, will, purposes, 1 Corinthians 13:12; a person is said to be sent or to go πρό προσώπου τίνος (פ לִפנֵי) (cf. Winers Grammar, § 65, 4 b. at the end; Buttmann, 319 (274)), i. e. before one, to announce his coming and remove the obstacles from his way, Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:76; Luke 7:27 (Malachi 3:1); ; πρόπροσώπου τίνος (of time) before a thing, Acts 13:24(so לִפְנֵי in Amos 1:1; Zechariah 8:10; where the Sept.simply πρό (cf. πρό, b., p. 536b bottom)). πρόςφωτισμόν τῆς γνώσεως τῆς δόξης τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐνπροσώπῳ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, that we may bring forth into the light the knowledge of the glory of God as it shines in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:6(Paul really means, the majesty of God manifest in the person of Christ; but the signification of πρόσωπον is 'face,' and Paul is led to use the word by what he had said in of the brightness visible in the force of Moses). b. countenance, look (Latinvultus), i. e. the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and (by its various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings: κλίνειν τό πρόσωπον εἰς τήνγῆν, to bow the face to the earth (a characteristic of fear and anxiety), Luke 24:5; Hebraistic phrases relating to the direction of the countenance, the look: τόπρόσωπον τοῦ κυρίου ἐπί τινα, namely, ἐστιν, the face of the Lord is (turned) upon one, i. e. he looks upon and watches him, 1 Peter 3:12 (from Psalm 33:17 ()); στηρίζειν τό πρόσωπον (Hebrew שׂוּם or פָּנִיםנָתַן; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, ii., p. 1109 on the same form of expression in Syriac, Arabic, Persian, Turkish) τοῦ πορεύεσθαι εἰς with an accusative of the place (A. V. steadfastly to set one's face to go etc. (seeστηρίζω, a.)), Luke 9:51; moreover, even τόπρόσωπον τίνος ἐστι πορευόμενον εἰς with the accusative of place, Luke 9:53 (τό πρόσωπον σουπορευόμενον ἐν μέσῳ αὐτῶν, 2 Samuel 17:11); ἀπό προσώπου τίνος φεύγειν, to flee in terror from the face (German Anblick) of one enraged, Revelation 20:11; κρύπτειν τινα etc. (see κρύπτω, a.), Revelation 6:16; ἀνάψυξις ἀπό προσώπου Θεοῦ, the refreshing which comes from the bright and smiling countenance of God to one seeking comfort, Acts 3:20(19); on 2 Thessalonians 1:9 see ἀπό, p. 59a middle; μετά τοῦ προσώπου σου, namely, ὄντα, in the presence of thy joyous countenance (see μετά, I. 2 b. β'.), Acts 2:28 (from Psalm 15:11 ()); εἰς πρόσωποντῶν ἐκκλησιῶν, turned unto (i. e. in (R. V.)) the face of the churches as the witnesses of your zeal, 2 Corinthians 8:24; ἵνα ἐκ πολλῶν προσώπων ... διάπολλῶν εὐχαριστηθῇ, that from many faces (turned toward God and expressing the devout and grateful feelings of the soul) thanks may be rendered by many (accordingly, both ἐκ πολλῶν προσώπων and διάπολλῶν belong to εὐχαριστηθῇ (cf. Meyer ad loc.; see below)), 2 Corinthians 1:11. ἀπό προσώπου τίνος(פ מִפְּנֵי),from the sight or presence of one, Acts 5:41; Acts 7:45 (here A. V. before the face; Revelation 12:14); ἐν προσώπῳ Χριστοῦ, in the presence of Christ, i. e. Christ looking on (and approving), 2 Corinthians 2:10 (Proverbs 8:30); (some would render πρόσωπον here and in above person (cf. R. V.): — here nearly equivalent to on the part of (Vulg.in persona Christi); there equivalent to 'an individual' (Plutarch, de garrul. 13, p. 509 b.; Epictetus diss. 1, 2, 7; Polybius 8, 13, 5; 12, 27, 10; 27, 6, 4; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 1, 1 [ET]; 47, 6 [ET]; Phryn., p. 379, and Lobeck's note, p. 380)). c. Hebraistically, the appearance one presents by his wealth or poverty, his rank or low condition; outward circumstances, external condition; so used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one's judgment and treatment of men: βλέπειν εἰςπρόσωπον ἀνθρώπων, Matthew 22:16; Mark 12:14; θαυμάζειν πρόσωπα, Jude 1:16; λαμβάνεινπρόσωπον (τίνος), Luke 20:21; Galatians 2:6 (on which see βλέπω, 2 c., θαυμάζω λαμβάνω, I. 4). καυχᾶσθαι ἐν προσώπῳ καί οὐ καρδία, to glory in those things which they simulate in look, viz. piety, love, righteousness, although their heart is devoid of these virtues, 2 Corinthians 5:12, cf. 1 Samuel 16:7. 2. the outward appearance of inanimate things (A. V.face (except in James as below)): τοῦ ἄνθους, James 1:11; τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, τῆς γῆς, Matthew 16:3 (here Tbrackets; WH reject the passage); Luke 12:56 (Ps. 103(104):); (so in Latin, naturae vultus, Ovid. metam. 1, 6; maris facies, Vergil Aen. 5, 768; on this use of the nounfacies see Aulus Gellius, noctes atticae 13, 29); surface: τῆς γῆς, Luke 21:35; Acts 17:26 (on the omitted article here cf. πᾶς, I. 1 c.) (Genesis 2:6; Genesis 11:8).    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance countenance, face, appearance From pros and ops (the visage, from optanomai); the front (as being towards view), i.e. The countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication, presence, person -- (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men's) person, presence. I hope this will suffice, if not please let me know. I am will to provide all types of references! Blessings!

 

[Gustave]

God is SPIRIT.

This Spirit ( Substance ) is what makes the Father, Son & Holy Spirit - "GOD". 

The Father isn't God because He's the Father ( has nothing to do with relationship to the other 2 Persons ), The Father is God for the exact same reason that the Son and Holy Spirit are God, the 3 co-equally possess the ONE Substance which is God.