Are 'Celebration SDA Churches', new path to God, or away from truth?

[Gregory Matthews]

As some of you will expect, I will comment on the post that Hobie  made above that commented on The One Project (TOP).

First we should remember that TOP I gone our of business.  It no  longer exists.   It came for a time and the it ended. So, we should not treat it as something that still  is in operation.

Second, I will commend Hobie for an aspect of his post in which he posted references to TOP that were both positive and negative.  I appreciate that fairness and I acknowledge that on the part of Hobie.

I will add to the comments that Hobie made the following:

*  Many of the criticisms (not all) that have been made against TOP are simply false.

*  Other criticism made against  it are simply due to ignorance of fundamental issues related to TOP.

*  No human organization is perfect.  Valid criticisms have been made about TOP.  Over the years TOP has made changes that reflect those criticisms.

*  TOP leadership does believe that there is a time and place for teaching the distinctive beliefs of the SDA Church, even if those are not taught at the "gatherings."  NOTE:  I have personally heard then taught in sermons that they have presented outside of the gatherings.

*  TOP leadership has attempted to meet personally with a number TOP critics to discuss their charges against TOP.  It is true that some have met with TOP leadership, which is in accord with Biblical principles.  However, a number of major critics have refused to personally meet with TOP leadership.  It should be stated that this has included times in which TOP leadership had offered to travel to where the critics lived to include outside the United States.  This is a clear violation of Biblical principles.  NOTE:  As TOP has gone out of business, I do not believe it would be helpful to name such people. 

    

[CoAspen]

Quote

 However, a number of major critics have refused to personally meet with TOP leadership. It should be stated that this has included times in which TOP leadership had offered to travel to where the critics lived to include outside the United States.  This is a clear violation of Biblical principles.

Why seek truth when , 'I heard', 'they said', innuendo, etc., more closely align with ones personal belief.

[hobie]

I was away taking care of some personal issues on the Island of Puerto Rico, and some other things and just got back. The island is still a mess, the power went out on the whole island several times and I talked to a electrical engineer who said they only have one main line rather than the normal three, so it will just keep happening till someone comes up with money to redo the infrastructure basically from scratch. Now back to what is happening in our church that has been taken over.

Well its worse than I could have imagined, it emptied out our new church, just a handful show up for church on Sabbath. But now it has spread to the other churches. The members of the Spanish SDA church of 300+ are coming to our church telling us the same stories, that their church has been taken over and everyone is leaving, it has lost half its members and from what they are telling us, the worship has been turned into a Pentecostal type service.

Its bad, as we have nothing we can do, and we are seeing it spreading to other churches up the coast where the service is being turned into performances of load music and American Idol type of show on the front. They take away anything spiritual from up front including the pulpit and changed it to a stage for the show. It cannot be called worship, reverent or holy what is happening on Sabbath in those churches....

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, I reviewed some of your earlier posts and found some common themes.

Everything  you said is cultural.

You mention drums:  Are you aware that in some countries drums have been used in their SDA services since the beginning of time?

I am reminded of a situation in which a General Conference leader, now dead, typically traveled with his accordion  when he visited other countries.  But, when he visited in some places he would be asked not to bring his accordion as in that country it was not acceptable to be played in church.

Cultural issues play a role in all of Adventism.  I am reminded of on country in which people who wore blue jeans outside of their home could be disfellowshipped for doing so.  It just was not done in that country.

 

 

[hobie]

9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Well, I reviewed some of your earlier posts and found some common themes.

Everything  you said is cultural.

You mention drums:  Are you aware that in some countries drums have been used in their SDA services since the beginning of time?

I am reminded of a situation in which a General Conference leader, now dead, typically traveled with his accordion  when he visited other countries.  But, when he visited in some places he would be asked not to bring his accordion as in that country it was not acceptable to be played in church.

Cultural issues play a role in all of Adventism.  I am reminded of on country in which people who wore blue jeans outside of their home could be disfellowshipped for doing so.  It just was not done in that country.

 

 

That is what they said of the guitar in our Latin churches, that it was not appropriate in church. Yet it was all we had, but we could discern what was reverent, and holy and singing that gave g;ory to God. And this is completely devoid of that, so don't try to twist it into a cultural issue. I grew up on Led Zep, and other hard rock, I know it when I hear it. 

[hobie]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Id be in trouble with the skull=cap...but I tend to take it off for church and eating at the table

Yes, and now we accept them in and they change as God touches their heart. But you need to learn from history what happens when you do not convert, but keep the sin and spread it around. One of the reason they said "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" is the church in Rome was taken into apostasy by the unconverted, and we see the results, but some refuse to see or hear the truth of the matter before them.

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Id be in trouble with the skull=cap...but I tend to take it off for church and eating at the table

You'd be in trouble without the skull cap ... 

[hobie]

The Spiritual Formation concepts being brought in are nothing but mystic spiritualism and are destroying the faith of the members and basically infiltrating the Adventist church. Out of our original church or 300 plus, there now may be a dozen show up on Sabbath morning, and many of the members just simply stopped going as it was taken over by the forces changing it into a celebration church. We have come across some of the members at places such as stores, restaurants, events, etc.. and they have quit participating and just stay home and watch Adventist programing they find, or are selling their homes and moving away,  or drive to various Adventist churches distances away to see if they have been affected or they are safe to join.

Its devastation to see so many of my Adventist friends is such despair and we have tried to bring them to visit our little group, but a lot of them have been so discouraged, that they have just given up. We are having Bible study on Sabbath in the afternoon for the members to try and go over the truth that we have in Adventism, so we are trying to fight back from the corruption that is being brought in, even from the Conference lever, but the damage has been done, and we are just picking up the pieces as we can.

[hobie]

Now what exactly is the danger of these "Spiritual Formation" practices, well you can look at the following:

 

"...Practices called “spiritual disciplines” that are deemed necessary for “spiritual formation” have entered evangelicalism. Recent encounters with this teaching narrated to me by friends caused me to investigate these practices. The first experience involved my friend and co-worker Ryan Habbena who went back to seminary to finish his masters degree. Here is his experience in his own words:

I recently took a seminary course on the book of Luke. It was a summer intensive and was one of only two classes being offered at the time. About midway through the week, while the class was steeped in trying to discern the intent and significance of the book of Luke, we began to hear the echoes of mystic chanting coming through the walls. As it turned out, the other class being offered was parked right next to ours. The paper thin walls were carrying the choruses of a class exploring the life and teachings of Catholic mystic Henry Nouwen. We proceeded, trying to concentrate on studying the Scriptures while tuning out the chants that were carrying on next door. Perhaps what was more unsettling though is the class studying Nouwen was chock full, while there were plenty of empty seats next door for anyone wanting to learn about the inspired book of Luke.^1..."

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue91.htm

[Normally  I do not insert comments into a post that another person has made.   However, in this case I believe that due to the fact that some may misunderstand this post it is critical that I insert some comments.  First, the post above was written by a person named Bob Dewaay.  It was not written by Hobie.  Second, the Seminary was a Baptist Seminary.   It was not Andrews Seminary--GM.]

"Many Christian colleges are adopting a course of study called “Spiritual Formation” that introduces students to “spiritual disciplines.”

We warn about the unbiblical nature of these ascetic and mystical practices by critiquing Dallas Willard’s teachings."

http://apprising.org/2012/06/13/dangers-of-spiritual-formation/

"According to proponents of spiritual formation, various “spiritual disciplines” must be practiced in order to experience true spiritual growth:

Christian spiritual formation is a God-ordained process that shapes our entire person so that we take on the character and being of Christ himself.

Properly employed…these disciplines help us attain increasing levels of spiritual maturity so that we respond to our life circumstances with the mind of Christ. 3

In his book, The Celebration of Discipline, as well as on his Renovaré website, Richard Foster lists these disciplines as: 4

• Meditation Entering into a “listening silence” in order to “hear God’s voice.” Similar to the meditation of Eastern religions.
• PRAYER An “interactive conversation” with God. Practiced as contemplative prayer.
• Fasting “The voluntary denial of an otherwise normal function for the sake of intense spiritual activity.”
• Study “The mind taking on an order conforming to the order of whatever we concentrate upon.”
• Simplicity “The joyful unconcern for possessions we experience as we truly ‘seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness’ (Matt 6:33).”
• Solitude A “state of mind” for one to be “found by God and freed from competing loyalties.”
• Submission Letting “go of the burden of always needing to get our own way.”
• Service “A pattern of service as a lifestyle…At the center is found a contentment in hiddenness, indiscriminancy.”
• Confession Confession of sin to other professing believers.
• Worship “Entering into the supra-natural experience of the Shekanyah, or glory, of God.”
• Guidance Learning to “heed the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the teachings of Jesus.” “It is the perception that we have heard the Kol Yahweh, the voice of God.”
• Celebration Celebrating God in all facets of life.Since the disciplines are not defined in Scripture, no concrete, definitive list is available. Consequently, Willard notes that we should not “assume that our particular list will be right for others. 5 This confirms the subjective nature of these practices.

Unbiblical Origins

Despite assertions that the spiritual disciplines are “God-ordained,” 6 they are in fact derived from the practices of Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox mystics.  7 These practices are contrary to the biblical theology fought for in the Reformation."

https://bereanresearch.org/spiritual-formation/

[Material posted between here and my inserted previous comment appears to have been written by people such as Bob Dewaay, Dick Kaffel, Ken Silva and Marsh West.  However, it is not totally clear as to who wrote what to include the inclusion of other people.  Regardless, it should be stated that the above material was not related to the SDA Church, which is what this thread is supposed to be about--GM.]

"The spiritual formation movement is spreading rapidly throughout the Christian community. The concept of being formed spiritually is not wrong in itself, but many practices that accompany the movement miss the mark. Often, mystic rituals do not glorify the true God but can instead lead us into dangerous spiritualism"

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_Spiritual_Formation_movement_Oakland

"A dark force has taken our church by storm—a false revival, boldly wrapped in the promise of an intense worship experience. It has trapped pastors, Conference leaders and laity alike."

http://thegreatcontroversy.info/the-one-project.html

[The above quote appears to have been taken from the work of a SDA, Stephanie Bowers Griffin.  She tell her story which seems to be based upon her  educational experience in a school that was not a SDA school--GM.]

"I’ve done a lot of research in occultism over the years, and that research helped me better understand Emerging Church dangers too — especially the perils of spiritual formation. But honestly, I wasn’t expecting to discover so many details about its inroads into the church I love and serve, the Seventh-day Adventist church."

http://advindicate.com/articles/2013/10/25/interview-with-steve-wolhberg-on-the-emerging-church

"It is called by different names (Spiritual Formation, Spiritual Direction, Spiritual Disciplines, etc.), but it is nothing more than the Spiritual Exercises devised by Ignatius Loyola.

These have been used for over 460 years to train Jesuit priests, bringing them into subservience to Catholic superiors."

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-S/Spiritual-form.pdf

 

"In his July 2010 keynote sermon, Ted N.C. Wilson, newly elected President of the Seventh-Day Adventist church
counseled, “Stay away from non-biblical spiritual disciplines or methods of spiritual formation that are
rooted in mysticism such as contemplative prayer, centering prayer, and the emerging church movement in
which they are promoted.” Why would Elder Wilson ask us to stay away from spiritual disciplines or formation?"...

http://www.righteousnessislove.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Contemplating-Spiritual-Formation-in-the-Adventist-Church.pdf

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:43 PM, The Wanderer said:

This is actually a good point, and as long as a person does not go over-board with it, I think God would also recommend this general idea. I am not so sure the skull cap is "sin" ...:)

If you want to be converted and repent from sin, you have to come to the point you accept and believe that it (sin) is a transgression and offense to God. But if you join a church and they say come as you are (with sin) and stay as you are (in sin), then what have you converted from.

[hobie]

Now, at the time they told us in our original church that they would be forming these groups (of spiritual formation) to take us through these classes to teach us. They didn't tell us what they were teaching, just that they would be, so I naturally went into the church board meetings to find out what it was all about. Well they were planning to teach first the 'spiritual leaders' basically the 'directors' who would lead the groups and they planned on a large number of groups, to make sure everyone in church was indoctrinated or 'trained' in these classes. Everyone had to join a group, and they would meet at various venues, interestingly on Wednesday night, at the same time as regular prayer meeting, so it would supersede that.

Well, we had a long time bible study group that I assisted in that would meet on Sabbath afternoon and most of them also came to the Wednesday night prayer meeting. They didn't make any exception, and had one of the leaders of the spiritual formation groups who was also a pastor invite us to his home and try to persuade us to join one of the groups. We told him we already had a bible study group that we were involved in and politely declined. They started the groups, and then tried to put in the 'directors' into all the church offices by bypassing the nomination process. This was our first hint at what was about to occur, as the church members stood up and refused to allow this to happen. The church members asked to form the pre-nomination committee to nominate the leaders and then vote in church or take it to a business meeting if needed to make themselves heard outright on the matter. Well they said the pastor could choose the leaders he preferred and thus they did not need a nominating committee or need the church to elect them as we had done since its beginning and put in these 'leaders'.  So the pastor put in those leaders he wanted, and said our nomination would not happen, but he ran into trouble 'training' enough of them so some offices were left empty of they left the incumbent.

I  have never heard of anything like this, but it gets worse, as when the next nominating period came, the pastor and the church board knew the church members would fight against the methods they had used, so they changed tactics.  They pastor said they would just 'rollover' all the leaders from the previous year and this is how they again bypassed the church nomination process. Well by this time the members were seeing that they were going to impose their 'spiritual formation' agenda by any means possible, and they began leaving. As they lost members the church board voted to allow a Sunday keeping group to come in and hold service, so on Sundays you could actually come in and keep the first day as the Sabbath. Some of the church board members, started a Sunday service for the group we had been making sandwiches and soup for, and basically hijacked all the good work we had been doing for the group in the downtown area.

It seemed as if they intentionally took all the good work we had been doing and tried to corrupted it, and shove aside the bible study time, to keep any true study from being done. They dragged the church from a regular SDA church to their 'Willow Creek'  celebration style church, and push aside or rode over anyone who would stand up to them. 

I pray none of you ever have to go through this, to be betrayed in such a matter, by those claiming to be Adventist,  I can only say it is certainly 'of a most startling nature'... 

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 6:36 PM, The Wanderer said:

I would agree with that. I was just reading a passage that seems to support what you said very well, with a few extra detail:

Welcome to the forum hobie!

Thank You..

I hope there are a few that still see and hear what is happening and care about their church and how Satan has found a breach in the wall and is pouring in, an opening to destroy the faith of our brothers and sisters, we must give warning...

 

Ezekiel 33:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

⁶ But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

⁷ So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

⁸ When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

[hobie]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:13 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Hobie, I will reflect on your recent post:

*  Again, I appreciate your oppeness in sharing.

*  You come across to me as having a real struggle with being judgmental of others.   I believe that God can help you as you work on this issue in your life.  But, I wonder how judgmental you would be of me if you knew me personally?

*  SDA congregations do differ.  Most cannot nurture every person.  It seems to me that you have mostly experienced congregations in which you are not likely to grow spiritually.  I hope that you can  find one in which you can grow.

*  Music:  I suspect that you would be surprised at the multiple issues that people raise about music.  In a seminary class IS too  a million year ago I learned that many well known Christian hymns traced their tunes back to drinking songs sung in bars.  Also, in the Seminary I learned of a well-known elected General Conference official who, when traveling to certain countries would be asked not to bring a specific musical instrument with him, as SDA members in that country did not allow that  instrument to be played in a SDA church.  I learned of musical instruments that were not considered appropriate in U.S. SDA congregations that were an important part of SDA worship in other countries.  Keep in mind that we are an immigrant nation and the worship practices in other countries has entered services in the U.S.  Hobie, I could go on and list more.  But, I should stop at some place.  The bottom line is that as far as the tune itself is concerned, the SDA Church has not been able to develop a standard that can be applied in all nations of the world.  

*  The SDA  denomination is divided today over whether membership should be restricted to  people who have reached a specific level of adherence to doctrine and life practice; or whether it should be open to most people who commit to being on  spiritual journey of learning and growing.  I am reminded of my first Sabbath worshiping in another country.  I had considered that country to be    quite conservative in their approach to Adventism.   In truth, I was correct.  But, on that day, I was astounded by a baptism that I witnessed that  day.  It was clear that this adult couple had not journeyed far into the Adventist experience and culture.  [NOTE:  The Conference President was the pastor of that congregation.]  But, there was a factor that I had not understood that Sabbath day.  The congregation continued to nurture and grow that couple over the months that followed.  They were not left on their own.  Within the time that I worshiped in that congregation, the couple made many changes in their lies.

Well, at  some point I must stop in reflecting on your post.  It troubles me and on that I will stop for now.

 

Being open to those who 'commit to being on  spiritual journey of learning and growing' is good, but this is not the case. We were told to not bother with any SDA doctrine or beliefs, and stay away from any sharing of truth especially from SOP, all of the truths of Adventism were to be kept away. They could come in and  share all the ways of the world and its stumbling blocks to true spiritual learning and growing, but we had to hide the truth 'under a bushel'. I don't think that is what Christ meant when He said to teach all nations...

Matthew 28:18-20 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

²⁰ Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 14:6

6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—

[hobie]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 12:34 PM, GayatfootofCross said:

Of course we come as we are.

How can we not?

Unless a good sturdy mask is tightly bolted on.

 God is all about authenticity and non condemnation. and The Body of Christ heals and grows in this.

The masks wont be saved.

 

Yes, but you don't stay as you are, full of sin and in the bondage of iniquity. You must pray and allow the Holy Spirit to transform your heart and mind, to write the true law of love in your heart and guide you. We cannot come and stand perfect before God with our own dirty rags of righteousness but must put on Christ's righteousness. We must be transformed as we come close and get in communion with Christ so we don't hear the words, 'I never knew you', when He comes.

Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:37 PM, The Wanderer said:

Thank you hobie for this reply. Please do not take the following comment personally, because it is certainly not intended to be so. But I get genuinely concerned when I see someone quoting these types of texts, and then naming whatever slights they see in other church members as the "warning" that we must speak out against. Now you quoted this text quite readily, and it seems you have grown quite confident with it, and thats the flash-point where I see the greatest danger. That "trumpet" you are talking about has a very distinct and certain sound, and it does not sound anything like what you have posted. 

How confident are you with this part of the text that you are hurling at the church, and supposing it to be a part of your "warning message" to the Church? If by chance you are less confident in this portion, why would you even bother quoting the first part of the text? All that does is to split up the scripture narrative into sections that do not exist. In other words, we need context.

There is a quote that comes to mind when I read your post:

Mercy and compassion will be blended with justice. When it is necessary to give reproof, their language will not be exaggerated, but humble. In gentleness they will set before the wrongdoer his errors and help him to recover himself. Every true teacher will feel that should he err at all, it is better to err on the side of mercy than on the side of severity.  {Ed 293.2}

How cautious should we be when flinging about small snippets of scripture as if they were the whole story on a given matter? And lest anyone think I am "using EGW instead of scripture, then consider also the following:

He hath shewed thee,  [hobie], what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6:8)

So the question that begs for asking here is where, exactly, should be our priority when we see things at church we don't like? I do a lot of squawking on the forum sometimes, but I like to think at the end of the day, I KNOW I can follow this path of mercy & compassion. 

We tried not to say or do anything 'controversial', as the new church board directed, we kept quiet and as harmless as possible. But they started to impose the classes of 'spiritual formation' on all those who were leaders to 'educate them' so they would then become 'directors' and replace any who resisted. We saw it was nothing but eastern mysticism and Catholic rites and rituals or methodology, and we could not stay silent. So many began to do the only thing their conscience would allow to not hurt the church or the 'body of Christ' so to say, and quietly leave. My teachers began to quit one by one, and people began to ask me what was happening, and in anguish I could only direct them to speak to the church board and their direction they were giving us. I went to the new church board and just observed with my own eyes what they were doing during this time so it was not hearsay, and even though I did not open my mouth or blink at what they were doing,  the pastor called a 'executive meeting' and had my wife and I 'thrown out' for the lack of a kinder expression.

Finally, many members just stayed home and looked for Adventist programing for Sabbath, or started looking for a new church, or just didn't come at all.  I 'stayed with the ship as it sank' as they say as the church emptied, but finally the pastor and new church board stopped us from showing a video in VBS of the dangers associated with guess what, 'rock music' and that was what told me it was time to go. I found a small group that was meeting in homes and it has grown into a large group and we have rented a church and are in the process of becoming a church, and I have been given the responsibility of getting the members to raise funds to build a new church, (again) so we can worship in our own building. It was difficult before, doing car washes, and bake sales, church yard sales, etc.. but it is what we have to do, to again be able to sing, pray, and worship in a manner that pleases God and lifts our spirits with joy as we did before.

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:41 PM, The Wanderer said:

Have you considered the type of "church" that Jesus used to go to and HOW He responded to it?

Not quite sure what you are asking, was it like the time when He spoke clearly with the Jews:

John 10:31-33 King James Version (KJV)

³¹ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

³² Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

³³ The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[JoeMo]

On 5/19/2018 at 4:20 AM, hobie said:

Entering into a “listening silence” in order to “hear God’s voice.” Similar to the meditation of Eastern religions.

Not true.  Eastern meditation involves completely emptying one's mind; not focusing on God.  If anything. eastern mysticism stole meditation from the Israelits.

 

On 5/19/2018 at 3:47 PM, hobie said:

But if you join a church and they say come as you are (with sin) and stay as you are (in sin), then what have you converted from.

I have attended many diverse celebration and charismatic services.  Never have I heard it encouraged to stay in your sin.  They do encourage you to get up when you fall and keep your faith and eyes on Jesus.  Coming to Jesus as we are is quite Biblical.  He changes us; we don't change ourselves.

On 5/19/2018 at 4:36 PM, hobie said:

the church board voted to allow a Sunday keeping group to come in and hold service, so on Sundays you could actually come in and keep the first day as the Sabbath.

So?  How many small SDA churches rent space in Sunday churches because they can't afford a church of their own?  We are all Christians, we should be striving to include one another rather than exclude one another.

[JoeMo]

Read Rev. 4, 5, 7, and 21.  The celebrations in heaven described in these chapters sound more like a "celebration" service than the quiet dignified services prevalent in Adventism.  The wedding feast of the Lamb sure doesn't sound like a somber, quiet service.

[Gregory Matthews]

It is common for SDA congregations that are in an early stage of growth to rent space in a Sunday-keeping Protestant church in order to hold services in Saturday.  Ihave been the pastor of such congregations.

 

It is common for SDA congregations to rent their building to a Sunday keeping, Protestant congregations for them to hold services on Sunday.  I have been a member of congregations that did that.

All of the above is well within denominational policy.  If it was not, the local Conference  could take action to stop it.

 

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

13 hours ago, hobie said:

Yes, but you don't stay as you are, full of sin and in the bondage of iniquity. You must pray and allow the Holy Spirit to transform your heart and mind, to write the true law of love in your heart and guide you. We cannot come and stand perfect before God with our own dirty rags of righteousness but must put on Christ's righteousness. We must be transformed as we come close and get in communion with Christ so we don't hear the words, 'I never knew you', when He comes.

Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

²² Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

²³ And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Hi hobie!

Nice to meet you .

Perhaps you missed a sentence I said that directly addresses that very thing?

"  God is all about authenticity and non condemnation. and The Body of Christ heals and grows in this. "

Only when you see yourself as God sees you. Not condemned and already forgiven of all your sins and mirroring that in your relationships is a natural outcome of this relationship with God.

Oh how He loves us.

Have you found this to be true in your walk?

I enjoy your thoughts here.

Blessed.

........................

"Of course we come as we are.

How can we not?

Unless a good sturdy mask is tightly bolted on.

 God is all about authenticity and non condemnation. and The Body of Christ heals and grows in this.

The masks wont be saved.

"

.........................

Though I appreciate your response ..not sure how it addresses my post^.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

It seems like all it would take is an enthusiastic smile of a slight hand or body movement to have the poison crossbones "mark" affixed to your forehead

What would happen if people actually danced to the music, or clapped singing "Praise God, Thank You Jesus, We love You!" ?  I have been at a charismatic service (not SDA - heavens, no!) where this exact thing happened, and went on for over 30 minutes.  The preacher gave up on giving a sermon and joined in the celebration.  It was one of the most blessed I have ever been at a church service.  Never seen it before; and never seen it since. I wouldn't call it irreverent; but I sure would call it enthusiastic!

[Kevin H]

11 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

It is common for SDA congregations that are in an early stage of growth to rent space in a Sunday-keeping Protestant church in order to hold services in Saturday.  Ihave been the pastor of such congregations.

 

It is common for SDA congregations to rent their building to a Sunday keeping, Protestant congregations for them to hold services on Sunday.  I have been a member of congregations that did that.

All of the above is well within denominational policy.  If it was not, the local Conference  could take action to stop it.

 

 

 

Mrs. White wrote once with pride that the Seventh-day Adventist church she was visiting rented itself out to, if I remember correctly, Presbyterians on Sunday mornings.  

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:11 AM, JoeMo said:

Not true.  Eastern meditation involves completely emptying one's mind; not focusing on God.  If anything. eastern mysticism stole meditation from the Israelits.

 

I have attended many diverse celebration and charismatic services.  Never have I heard it encouraged to stay in your sin.  They do encourage you to get up when you fall and keep your faith and eyes on Jesus.  Coming to Jesus as we are is quite Biblical.  He changes us; we don't change ourselves.

So?  How many small SDA churches rent space in Sunday churches because they can't afford a church of their own?  We are all Christians, we should be striving to include one another rather than exclude one another.

The Willow Creek model has these issues if you look below the surface,  well as for renting, they gave it to them free of charge. Then they did a 'Sunday Breakfast' with a big sign for the community inviting them, so it does not appear they were evangelizing for Adventism and the Sabbath, but more for Sunday keeping IMHO.

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 1:09 PM, The Wanderer said:

I think that what hobie is referring to would be more aptly called "solid-state hypnosis. The origins of this anti-celebration movement  can be traced back to certain very conservative sects I had run ins with who called it that. But then, they also advocated coffee enemas and a few other goodies to have your body temple "clean" for The Holy Spirit.

Well take a look at the following and tell me what it is...

"It would appear that the entire purpose of The Practice is to practice Spiritual Formation and all of its contemplative components, like Lectio Divina, a centuries-old mystical Catholic practice involving repeating a word or phrase from the Bible over and over until you reach a higher level of consciousness to “hear God speak” to you: "

https://www.theaquilareport.com/willow-creeks-the-practice-blends-new-age-catholic-mysticism/ or  https://bereanresearch.org/willow-creeks-the-practice-blends-new-age-catholic-mysticism/ 

and many others, but not many look below the surface... 

http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c176pf.shtml

https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/willowcreek.htm

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 5:29 PM, GayatfootofCross said:

Hi hobie!

Nice to meet you .

Perhaps you missed a sentence I said that directly addresses that very thing?

"  God is all about authenticity and non condemnation. and The Body of Christ heals and grows in this. "

Only when you see yourself as God sees you. Not condemned and already forgiven of all your sins and mirroring that in your relationships is a natural outcome of this relationship with God.

Oh how He loves us.

Have you found this to be true in your walk?

I enjoy your thoughts here.

Blessed.

........................

"Of course we come as we are.

How can we not?

Unless a good sturdy mask is tightly bolted on.

 God is all about authenticity and non condemnation. and The Body of Christ heals and grows in this.

The masks wont be saved.

"

.........................

Though I appreciate your response ..not sure how it addresses my post^.

But do we then keep in the bondage of sin and iniquity sharing it with others in the 'The Body of Christ' or church, I don't think that is what Christ had in mind..