With new executive order, Trump takes aim at church-state wall

[B/W Photodude]

5 hours ago, hch said:

If President Trump is about to plunge us into the Time of Trouble,

is it wise to think that things are going to go on pretty much like they have for some time to come?

I almost tend to believe that here in America, we will not even know there is a time of trouble! In other countries, there is a lot of trouble for Christians, but is it the time of trouble for Christians?

[hch]

10 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I almost tend to believe that here in America, we will not even know there is a time of trouble! In other countries, there is a lot of trouble for Christians, but is it the time of trouble for Christians?

In an undeveloped country, they are used to having it tough. But in America, the luxury of 24 - 7 electricity and water, primary healthcare, and shopping convenience,

if the water gets turned off or the lights, most would be unable to cope.

Who can Imagine being unable to pay the rent, or car payment because of monetary restrictions?

Wouldn't just a little inconvenience shipwreck those Christians that are totally unprepared because they are not expecting it and have failed to prepare for what God has prophesied?

Someone made a funny about the last trump sounding, so does that mean we should  not listen to the sounds that come from his mouth?

It is easy to look at the past and say "prophecy fulfilled" 

But when the final complete fulfillment stares us in the face, Is it as easy to identify?

Isn't that why phkrause is watching and warning us to take notice?

[JoeMo]

18 hours ago, hch said:

Is there any merit in knowing the folks who will precipitate the final conflict?

Maybe.  The only Person I am really concerned about knowing in the Last Days is Jesus.  No matter who starts the conflict, I already know Who will finish it.  Am I on His side?  Am I ready for Him to translate me into His eternal Kingdom?  If so, I don't need to worry about the "who" and "when".  We will "know" when those prophecies begin to unfold in real-time.  Yes; I have my pet theories; but that's all they are is theories.  I wouldn't be surprised if then events leading to the end are something we have never even considered.

[hch]

31 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Maybe.  The only Person I am really concerned about knowing in the Last Days is Jesus.  No matter who starts the conflict, I already know Who will finish it.  Am I on His side?  Am I ready for Him to translate me into His eternal Kingdom?  If so, I don't need to worry about the "who" and "when".  We will "know" when those prophecies begin to unfold in real-time.  Yes; I have my pet theories; but that's all they are is theories.  I wouldn't be surprised if then events leading to the end are something we have never even considered.

knowing Jesus is paramount.

But why would he give us a revelation about endtime people and their actions, if He did not want us to know what to expect and to prepare for?

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, hch said:

But why would he give us a revelation about endtime people and their actions, if He did not want us to know what to expect and to prepare for?

He rarely mentions the names of people in advance.  The only exception I remember is when He called Cyrus by name in Isaiah.  He gives us characteristics of people and specific catastrophic or "supernatural" events to look for (none of which have been literally fulfilled yet) as signs of the times.  We are wise to different scenarios of just who the players are in end time events, but we shouldn't weave convoluted "interpretations" of scripture (what did Gregory call it - eisegesis?) to try to identify specific people.  "Prophets" have been doing that for 2,000 years; and none of them has been right yet.

[hch]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

He rarely mentions the names of people in advance.  The only exception I remember is when He called Cyrus by name in Isaiah.  He gives us characteristics of people and specific catastrophic or "supernatural" events to look for (none of which have been literally fulfilled yet) as signs of the times.  We are wise to different scenarios of just who the players are in end time events, but we shouldn't weave convoluted "interpretations" of scripture (what did Gregory call it - eisegesis?) to try to identify specific people.  "Prophets" have been doing that for 2,000 years; and none of them has been right yet.

But God knows who is who

and don't you think that He gives us ample information to know what we need when we need to know it?

[hch]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

God is not being questioned here...

Why did Jesus ask, "How readest thou?"

[JoeMo]

56 minutes ago, hch said:

don't you think that He gives us ample information to know what we need when we need to know it?

Yes, and we will know who the players are when they appear. For example, in Daniel 9:25-27:

"“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed one, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the anointed one will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The underlined part describes the 70th week of Daniel's seventy "sevens)". In my opinion (just my opinion, mind you), verse 27 provides some specific info on who this ruler might be:

1.He will negotiate a peace agreement between Israel and its allies and the nations surrounding Israel which will ensure peace and include access to the Temple Mount for all 3 major religions.

2. After 3-1/2 years, he will violate this Agreement, ban all Christians and Jews from the Temple Mount, and declare himself to be God (abomination that causes desolation).

 I will submit that I don't think anyone yet has met these qualifications.

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, hch said:

Why did Jesus ask, "How readest thou?"

According to Luke 10, it was to get a response from a lawyer who asked Him how to obtain eternal life.  The question had nothing to do contextually with the subject of this thread.

[hch]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Yes, and we will know who the players are when they appear. For example, in Daniel 9:25-27:

"“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed one, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the anointed one will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The underlined part describes the 70th week of Daniel's seventy "sevens)". In my opinion (just my opinion, mind you), verse 27 provides some specific info on who this ruler might be:

1.He will negotiate a peace agreement between Israel and its allies and the nations surrounding Israel which will ensure peace and include access to the Temple Mount for all 3 major religions.

2. After 3-1/2 years, he will violate this Agreement, ban all Christians and Jews from the Temple Mount, and declare himself to be God (abomination that causes desolation).

 I will submit that I don't think anyone yet has met these qualifications.

This is great illustration of how one reads the Scriptures. 

A class reads this passage as having been fulfilled in the past while another places it in the future.

Two very different readings of one passage.

The way a person understands Scriptures shapes their views of what the Scriptures mean to them.

 If the reading of a prophetic Scripture leads one to believe that it has been fulfilled in the past

Then that class of readers see that God inspired it, and it was true, so God's word is trustworthy

but they may not see any further fulfillment of that passage.

While the other class is looking for a future fulfillment.

A third class might see that passage in a different perspective that could also impact the way they live.

With the point that ones reading of Scripture (right or wrong) has an impact on an individual's understanding of the meaning of Scripture,

my comment on how to read this text or the ramification of ones view of Scripture is obliged to stop.

 

There might be some who read the Scriptures that see no link between them and President trump's executive orders.

But it is not the responsibility of any person to try to compel others to see things as they see them

Our calling is just to present the evidence as far as permitted to do so.

It is the Holy Spirit who inspired the Scriptures and He is the one who understands what they mean.

So in our walk with Jesus, we would be wise to seek a close walk with the Holy Spirit

that we might "rightly divide the word of truth."

[Gregory Matthews]

Ah, see the quote below for a very good question:

*  God gives us information about the future so that we can be confident that God has prepared for the future,  God is in charge and God's will is going to ultimately work out.

*  The Issue here is NOT that we need to prepare for the future.  It is that God has prepared for the future.

*  Rather than to tell us exactly what is going to happen in the future, God gives us information about the future so that when we see it happening we can then know that God knew about it ahead of time.

*  The issue here is NOT that we need to know ahead of time what is going to happen in the future.  It is that we need to know that God knows what is going to happen in the future.

Quote

But why would he give us a revelation about endtime people and their actions, if He did not want us to know what to expect and to prepare for?

[hch]

23 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Ah, see the quote below for a very good question:

*  God gives us information about the future so that we can be confident that God has prepared for the future,  God is in charge and God's will is going to ultimately work out.

*  The Issue here is NOT that we need to prepare for the future.  It is that God has prepared for the future.

*  Rather than to tell us exactly what is going to happen in the future, God gives us information about the future so that when we see it happening we can then know that God knew about it ahead of time.

*  The issue here is NOT that we need to know ahead of time what is going to happen in the future.  It is that we need to know that God knows what is going to happen in the future.

 

 

Gregory,

How do you reconcile your comment "NOT that we need to prepare for the future" with these Spirit of Prophecy instruction?

Quote

We should keep ever before us the fact that time is short. Iniquity is increasing on every hand. The righteous are set as lights in the world. Through them the glory of God is to be revealed to the world. Keep ever before you the solemn events of the future--the great review of the judgment and the coming of Christ. You with your family are to prepare for that day. . . .  {TDG 322.4}  

 

Quote

 I would that all could have made to them the representations that have been given me concerning the great events of the future and our need of preparation for the times before us. The Lord desires to prepare the hearts and minds of His people, that the blessedness of His way shall make its impression upon mind and heart and character, so that Satan's plans for spoiling their interest in the word of God shall not succeed. God's people need to understand that Satan is working with all his ingenuity to keep minds engrossed with those things that close the door of the heart to things of eternal interest, that men and women and youth shall not be touched by the messages of warning and invitation that are coming to the world in these last days. He is working in every conceivable way to hinder the sanctification of God's people through a belief of the truth.  {7MR 308.4}  

 

Quote

My brethren and sisters, if you have physical force, if you have money, invest them in the work of enlightening men and women, warning them to prepare for what is coming upon the earth.--Ms 76, 1905. 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Gregory wrote:

Quote

 The Issue here is NOT that we need to prepare for the future.  It is that God has prepared for the future.

I actually think preparing for the future is rather important.  God *does* expect us to do our part, and not just sit back, sans seatbelts or barf bags, on the rollercoaster of life.

If the only point of the Daniel and Revelation prophecies is simply to prove that God knows the future, then why bother to put it into visions with mysterious meanings?  Why didn't God just zap old John with a check-off list for us?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH:  I made four statements, that taken together present my view on the subject.   The three quotes that you provided from  EGW do not speak to the comments that I made.  However, I will further comment in an attempt to be clear.

 2)  Of course, all people are to understand that their time is potentially short.  (At my age, regardless of  when Christ returns again, time for me is short.)  All of us should be planning and preparing to spend eternity with God.

3)  My focus was on the End Time prophetic passages in the "Bible, such as in Daniel and Revelation, but not limited to those passages.  The End Time passages were not give to us to tell us the number of Popes, Presidents, etc. will live and rule in a specific time period.   Rather, the End Time passages were given  us to tell us that God is in charge, knows what is going to happen and   God's intentions will ultimately come to pass.  That will give us hope as we  see them taking place.  The passages that you quoted from Ellen white, were not related to  the statements that I made.

4)  see # 3.

In further comment:  We are not to set aside a years supply of food that we hide away in some remote location for a time of trouble.  At that time, we are to depend upon God.  Any hidden food that  we have stashed away will be known by the forces of evil and not available to us.  Your passages from EGW rightfully tell us to prepare for end Time by supporting efforts sto evangelize those who do not know God.

Pam:  No, in my talking about End time events, I am not talking about seat belts.    I have stepped out of an aircraft at 4,000 feet  (and again at 2,000 feet) above the ground.   But, I was wearing a parachute and I deployed it and I was wearing other safety devices that would have deployed the parachute if I had failed to do so myself.

Yes, I have stepped out of an helicopter at 90 feet above the ground when I was NOT wearing a parachute.  But, I was trained and knew exactly what I was doing.  However, due to my failure to exactly follow procedure, I broke a rib.  But, that was my fault. 

 

 

[hch]

If we live in Tornado alley for example, we should have a storm shelter or a plan.

Some folks advocate having stored food, etc.

but the Spirit of prophecy discourages that because the wicked will take it from us or it will breed worms.

But there are preparations that are needful.

As the time of trouble nears, is it wise for Christians to join the military (because jobs are scares)?

If the Mark of the beast will be an ordeal for Christians, how much worse will it be for Christians in the military?

Jesus warned that the endtime will be very hard on women with small children.

If we were impressed with the nearness of Christ's Coming might that not affect our family planning?

What about our resources?

There is a time to buy and a time to sell...

Shouldn't our understanding of the nearness of Christ's coming influence how we manage: 

our retirement funds, our monthly payment plans, our debts?

There are things that we can do to mitigate the impact of endtime events on us.

That tells me that there is a practical benefit in understanding the particulars of endtime Bible prophecy. 

Imagine the remorse that will discourage folks that are rich in this worlds goods:

when they see that the opportunity to use their resources to the glory of God has past?

The devil blinds us to our present opportunities and then he will discourage us because we were asleep!

[hch]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

3)  My focus was on the End Time prophetic passages in the "Bible, such as in Daniel and Revelation, but not limited to those passages.  The End Time passages were not give to us to tell us the number of Popes, Presidents, etc. will live and rule in a specific time period.   Rather, the End Time passages were given  us to tell us that God is in charge, knows what is going to happen and   God's intentions will ultimately come to pass.  That will give us hope as we  see them taking place.  The passages that you quoted from Ellen white, were not related to  the statements that I made.

 

Gregory,

If it is true that  "The End Time passages were not give to us to tell us the number of Popes, Presidents, etc. will live and rule in a specific time period"

Then it must be asked if we are making the best use of the information gleaned from prophetic Bible study?

 

The passages in question PRIMARILY should encourage us to cultivate and maintain our relationship with God through Christ.

These texts should encourage us to trust in God's divine foreknowledge and His ability to preserve us during trial and tribulation.

But if these texts reveal glimpses of truth that link to popes and presidents, should we:

1 study that aspect of the prophecies

2 ignore that aspect of the prophecies

3 downplay that aspect of the prophecies because traditionally knowledge had not increased before now

4 criticize those who take the time to dig a little deeper to learn everything that the prophecies contain for the time of the end?

 

Would God put revelations in His word that He never wants us to know?

What is a better witnessing tool on the eve of Christ's Advent:

1 Show past fulfillment of God's word  OR

2 To study passages that reveal thing that will impact us?

Curiosity of God's word can be a blessing if it leads to prayerful Bible study

 

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH, your ask in the quote below:

The issue is clear:  God has not placed in his Word what you claim to see.  You also ask about a better witness.  I will simply say that a better witness is not a witness to your claims to find in the Bible what is not there.

 

HCH,  over and over your claims have been demonstrated to be in error.  Repeatedly, your predictions of what would happen in the future has failed to come true.  That is the witness that must stand.

Sooner or later you will say something that will actually happen.

I am presently reading a book on probability.  The reality is that in a random world, things happen.  Probability tells us of random events happening.

When that happens and you are correct as to what you say will happen, it will not be because you were correct.  It will simply mean that the laws of probability tell us that things happen.  The Law of Absurdity (There actually is such.)  tells us that in a large collection of unlikely events, some event, not a specific event, will occur.  

Sometime in the future, an event you predicted will occur.  But, that will not make you correct.

 

Quote

Would God put revelations in HIs word that He never wants us to know?

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, hch said:

Shouldn't our understanding of the nearness of Christ's coming influence how we manage: 

our retirement funds, our monthly payment plans, our debts?

Yes; they should; but with balance.  We need to conduct our lives day-by-day like Jesus is returning to this afternoon.  We should plan our lives like we will die of old age before Jesus returns.  Call me faithless; but I'm not about to liquidate my estate and cash in my life insurance to donate all the proceedings to missions.  I am going to use a portion of my "excess" (I use that term loosely) for the furtherance of the gospel; and not necessarily all through SDA channels.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, hch said:

There are things that we can do to mitigate the impact of endtime events on us.

Yes, We can live our lives by faith in the Father and His Son, so we can be ready for Jesus' return regardless of how it happens.  That way, the biggest impact of end time events on us will be eternal life.  In my understanding of scripture, the apostolic church focused on the "glory" of Christ's return; not to "gory" things that would happen beforehand.

[hch]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Id like to see where you got this out of scripture.

Wanderer, Here is a good place to look.

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Hosea 4:6  "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

 

And Gregory,  what do suppose the majority thought was the probability of it raining in Noah's Day?

Since rain was not in their sphere of thought,  would you suppose that they probably did not give it too much probability.