The Investigative Judgment

[Gregory Matthews]

From my standpoint, feel free to discuss all aspects of the judgement, if that is what you-all want.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

And the spirit behind my comment was:  . . . and continue to discuss. . .

 

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This verse is confusing - to me.  If "sons" are not "under the law", then how is that God's own Son was "born under the law" - unless that is a position he assumed, in order to redeem.

This is what I believe.  One man HAD to keep the whole Law (i.e., be "under the Law") to save Himself without a Redeemer (i.e., Jesus did not redeem Himself.  He kept the whole Law His whole life). Furthermore, He kept the whole Law as the God-Man (without evr using His divine powers unless He had His Father's leading to do so, or else He would not have the authority to redeem all of humanity.

[8thdaypriest]

Galatians 3:22 "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (NKJ).

Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given – because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ – to those who believe (NET).

Galatians 3:22 "But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe" (NIV).

I posted same verse, three versions.   Doesn't "under sin" mean that everything and everyone is dying, because of the effects of sin - the domino effects of sin, from the very first sin, through the flood of Noah's day, down to polluted oceans and crime ridden cities of our day?   And aren't those effects the natural outworking of God's "Law" (cause and effect) ?   

Is this another way of explaining Paul's phrase "under the Law"?  Or is that too simple?

Wasn't Jesus born into a world "under the control of sin"?  Just like Moses was born into slavery under Pharaoh. 

[8thdaypriest]

I find the subject of "the judgment" of God, in all its aspects, absolutely fascinating!   The bottom line - is really - Can we trust HIM?  To "have faith in HIM" is to trust HIM.  If we come to see God as unjust, then we won't trust HIM.  Hence the importance of our understanding - concerning "the judgment". 

The flood of Noah's day suggests that God will just destroy His original creation, if it gets out of control with rebellion.  I mean, God DID wipe out 8 short of the ENTIRE human population.  Sure injects FEAR  into the relationship - don't you think?  The only thing that balances that destruction is the cross.  At the cross God says, I would rather die than destroy you.  I will do anything and everything possible to save my creation, because I love you.

[hch]

53 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I find the subject of "the judgment" of God, in all its aspects, absolutely fascinating!   The bottom line - is really - Can we trust HIM?  To "have faith in HIM" is to trust HIM.  If we come to see God as unjust, then we won't trust HIM.  Hence the importance of our understanding - concerning "the judgment". 

The flood of Noah's day suggests that God will just destroy His original creation, if it gets out of control with rebellion.  I mean, God DID wipe out 8 short of the ENTIRE human population.  Sure injects FEAR  into the relationship - don't you think?  The only thing that balances that destruction is the cross.  At the cross God says, I would rather die than destroy you.  I will do anything and everything possible to save my creation, because I love you.

But not everyone see it this way.

One person states the Investigative judgment is marvelous. The next states there is no such thing.

One person sees that it began on a certain date and parts of it end on specific dates.

But another agrees with the start date and can't see the other dates.

Yet another sees no need for any dates, etc.

My son calls it selected messages: Like going to a smorgasbord...take what you like and leave the rest.

1) I personally do not believe that God puts things in His word that are unimportant.

 2) if something is important enough for God to reveal it to us, then it is important enough for us to attempt to understand it.

3) The promises are: a) seek and find b) ask wisdom of God and He will give it and He  won't think we're stupid

God's word predicted an IJ and when it would start. And thus it happened. YES WE CAN TRUST HIM AND HIS WORD.

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, hch said:

But not everyone see it this way.

One person states the Investigative judgment is marvelous. The next states there is no such thing.

One person sees that it began on a certain date and parts of it end on specific dates.

But another agrees with the start date and can't see the other dates.

Yet another sees no need for any dates, etc.

My son calls it selected messages: Like going to a smorgasbord...take what you like and leave the rest.

1) I personally do not believe that God puts things in His word that are unimportant.

 2) if something is important enough for God to reveal it to us, then it is important enough for us to attempt to understand it.

3) The promises are: a) seek and find b) ask wisdom of God and He will give it and He  won't think we're stupid

God's word predicted an IJ and when it would start. And thus it happened. YES WE CAN TRUST HIM AND HIS WORD.

hch, 

You seem very sure of your beliefs concerning the Investigative Judgment, and when it began.  (I remember how SURE I was 30 years ago.)  Many of us are just as sure that an IJ did not begin on October 22nd 1844.  We study the same Bible.  We pray for light as we study.  I don't think you can dismiss everyone who disagrees with you, as folks just picking through the Bible choosing what they will believe, knowingly rejecting truths.  I have NOT knowingly rejected any truth. 

[Gregory Matthews]

In my opinion, many have rejected the idea of an IJ on the basis of a misunderstanding of  what it is about.  It is not we humans who are on trial.  It is not a teaching that we humans cannot be assured of our salvation until we pass the IJ.  The IJ Is focused on God.  The IJ demonstrates to a waiting universe that the plan of salvation has accomplished it purpose, we  who are destined to spend eternity with God had freely chosen to do so and sin has been removed from us.  We are safe to save and God is just in saving us.  On the other hand, those    who will not spend eternity with God have exercised their free choice  to depart from God and God is just in allowing them to do so.

As to the date of the IJ, a date that people may argue about, this  is of much less importance than is an understanding of the nature of the IJ to include that the IJ is not a trial that may result in the loss of our salvation.

 

 

[JoeMo]

Can't we just call it "judgement"?

[hch]

7 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Can't we just call it "judgement"?

Ps 37:28  "For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

As I read it, The LORD loves being able to turn a sinner into a saint.

[Gregory Matthews]

Whatever we chose to call it, we must use a term that has understanding to the people with whom we are communicating.

 

 

[hch]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:06 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

So - back to "UNDER THE LAW" and the judgment.  

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (NKJ)

The Law speaks to those who are "under" it.  Jesus was "born under the law".  That would mean the Law spoke to Jesus also. 

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law (NKJ).  Galatians 4:5 "to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." (NKJ)

This verse is confusing - to me.  If "sons" are not "under the law", then how is that God's own Son was "born under the law" - unless that is a position he assumed, in order to redeem.

 

In Romans 3:19 the word <1722> translated UNDER is not the same word as Galatians 4:4 that is translated as UNDER <5259>.

Ro 3:19  Now <1161> we know <1492> (5758) that <3754> what things soever <3745> the law <3551> saith <3004> (5719), it saith <2980> (5719) toward another [cf Romans 15:5] <1722>  law <3551>: that <2443> every <3956> mouth <4750> may be stopped <5420> (5652), and <2532> all <3956> the world <2889> may become <1096> (5638) guilty <5267> before God <2316>.???

Ro 3:19  Now <1161> we know <1492> (5758) that <3754> what things soever <3745> the law <3551> saith <3004> (5719), it saith <2980> (5719) through [cf 1 Peter 1:2] <1722> the law <3551>: that <2443> every <3956> mouth <4750> may be stopped <5420> (5652), and <2532> all <3956> the world <2889> may become <1096> (5638) guilty <5267> before God <2316>.[???]

Ro 3:19  Now <1161> we know <1492> (5758) that <3754> what things soever <3745> the law <3551> saith <3004> (5719), it saith <2980> (5719) by <1722> the law <3551>: that <2443> every <3956> mouth <4750> may be stopped <5420> (5652), and <2532> all <3956> the world <2889> may become <1096> (5638) guilty <5267> before God <2316>.[???]

 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Can't we just call it "judgement"?

Because God does not need to "investigate" anything.  He is ALL-KNOWING.

[8thdaypriest]

Another aspect of JUDGMENT:

What is "the age of responsibility"?  I don't remember that phrase from the Bible.  

When Israel was turned back into the wilderness, the LORD exempted those under 20 years old - from death in the wilderness.  Does that demonstrate an "age of responsibility" - that with the LORD that age is 20 years?

Numbers 14:29 "Your dead bodies will fall in this wilderness – all those of you who were numbered, according to your full number, from twenty years old and upward, who have murmured against me." (NET)

They were "numbered" for the army of Israel. 

Does this mean all those 19 and younger get automatic forgiveness, and a free pass to eternal life, without the requirement to believe or "choose who you will serve" ?   That would mean a whopping lot of teen gang members, walking the golden streets. 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In my opinion, many have rejected the idea of an IJ on the basis of a misunderstanding of  what it is about.  It is not we humans who are on trial.  It is not a teaching that we humans cannot be assured of our salvation until we pass the IJ.  The IJ Is focused on God. 

Doesn't your view disagree with that of EGW - in regards to the pre-Advent Investigative Judgment?  I can remember being terrified that my name could come up at any moment.  I could be "weighed in the balances and found wanting". 

I was baptized (the first time) when I was 10.  I did love Jesus, but mostly the evangelist at a D&R Seminar had put the fear into us, that we could end up in the "Lake of Fire".  

[Gregory Matthews]

In my personal opinion, I do not believe that my view conflicts with what Ellen White presents.  I recognize that some might differ with me on that while I do believe that others would agree with me.  That is not a point that I would wish to argue.

I clearly hold that the Bible is to be the standard by which doctrine is to be judged and I believe that the Bible teaches such.  Ellen White taught that, as I understand her.  So, my first and primary standard is to determine what the Bible teaches.   

As I look at the spiritual journey taken by Ellen White, I see her views on doctrinal issues developing over a number of years.  In some cases they expended beyond what she had understood at one time.  In other cases, I see her moving to a new position.  Two (2) well known examples of changes in her understanding of doctrinal issues include the so-called "shut-door" position and her position on the Trinity.  Other issues could be mentioned, but those come immediately to my mind.  

Why should we expect anything less in her spiritual development?  She was human.  At no time did she ever have a full, total, complete knowledge and understanding of God as no human has such.  In many ways, she developed spiritually just like you and I must develop.

Yes, she and her ministry was a gift from God to us as a developing Church.  but, God did not give her to us to diminish the authority of the Bible.  She should never be considered in the role of supplanting the Bible.

For whatever reason, I do believe that there was a time in which the IJ was taught in a manner that scared  people.  I have moved beyond that perspective.   I believe that I am not alone in teaching what I teach on this doctrinal issue.

[B/W Photodude]

11 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In my opinion, many have rejected the idea of an IJ on the basis of a misunderstanding of  what it is about.  It is not we humans who are on trial.  It is not a teaching that we humans cannot be assured of our salvation until we pass the IJ.  The IJ Is focused on God.  The IJ demonstrates to a waiting universe that the plan of salvation has accomplished it purpose, we  who are destined to spend eternity with God had freely chosen to do so and sin has been removed from us.  We are safe to save and God is just in saving us.  On the other hand, those    who will not spend eternity with God have exercised their free choice  to depart from God and God is just in allowing them to do so.

As to the date of the IJ, a date that people may argue about, this  is of much less importance than is an understanding of the nature of the IJ to include that the IJ is not a trial that may result in the loss of our salvation.

The fact that you use the term "safe to save" suggests that we are on trial in a manner of speaking. My own personal view of IJ is that everyone who has ever claimed the name of Jesus and was in the Lamb's "Book of Life" are examined. The IJ in my viewpoint is part of the story of the book that John feared that no one was holy enough to open in Revelation. Given that God knows from eternity our outcome, the IJ is there for someone to witness. And the universe will review the outcome of the lives here on earth, God's judgement of them, and His mercy and grace in saving the ones who are save. So, the IJ is for the benefit of the unfallen universe. Which leads everyone to finally say that His ways are just.  Really, the entire situation around sin is being examined, including the lives of God's people. I am scratching my head trying to think of something related to the sin problem that is NOT being examined, although I realize that the lives of the lost will be reviewed during the millenium, but that judgement is for the saved and the Great White Throne judgement for the benefit of the lost.

[hch]

23 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

hch, 

You seem very sure of your beliefs concerning the Investigative Judgment, and when it began.  (I remember how SURE I was 30 years ago.)  Many of us are just as sure that an IJ did not begin on October 22nd 1844.  We study the same Bible.  We pray for light as we study.  I don't think you can dismiss everyone who disagrees with you, as folks just picking through the Bible choosing what they will believe, knowingly rejecting truths.  I have NOT knowingly rejected any truth. 

1. King Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem in 605 BC.

2. Traditionally it had been understood that Jeremiah prophesied that the captivity would last 70 years.

Jeremiah 25:11  "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

Jer 29:10  "For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place."

3 The Captivity should have ended in 535 BC When Cyrus became king commanded to build a House for God at Jerusalem and the people could go there. Prophecy fulfilled:

Ezra 1:1-2  "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah."

Ezra 5:13  "But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God."

2Ch 36:22-23 " Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up."

4. If the prophecy of Jeremiah had been completely fulfilled, there would not have been a need for a 2ns or a 3rd decree.

Ezra 6:14  "And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

5. Jeremiah had also prophesied that the 70 years were to be doubled. 70 years doubled is 140 years.

Jer 16:18  "And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things."
Jer 17:18  Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction."

6. Jerusalem fell in 605 BC. Double destruction followed (Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar twice more). The Temple was destroyed the third time Jerusalem fell.

7. From 605 BC Jerusalem's 140 years of desolation prophesied by Jeremiah were to end in 465 BC. In 465 BC Artaxerxes became king of Persia (465 was his ascension year). He later  issued the final decree to finish the Temple and to resume  its sacrificial services. 

Ezra 6:7-10 " Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place.  Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king’s goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expenses be given unto these men, that they be not hindered.  And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savours unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons."

8. Daniel had prophesied that the Sanctuary would be cleansed unto 2300 days. Unto could be translated as AFTER. Daniel gave not start date. Just the amount of time and an event.

" And he said unto me, Unto [after] two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (Daniel 8:14).

9. In Bible prophecy, a year is generally calculated as having 360 days and a month as having 30 days. Thus 2300 days would be 6 years, 4 month, and 20 days.

10. (465 was Artaxerxes ascension year) Thus his official first year was 464 BC. Daniel's prophecy that included 6 years, 4 months, 20 days would end in the 7th year.

11. Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in Artaxerxes 7th year. He said it was 6 years, 4 month, and the first day of the 5 month when he arrived, which was 19 before 2300 days would end. 

Ezra 7:7-9 " And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests, and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king.  And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.  For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him."

God who had given Daniel a prophecy without a starting date or end date that was to span 2300 days gave Ezra the fulfillment of that prophecy and it was recorded for our edification.

12. The word of God establishes that the 70 year captivity would be doubled to 140 years. It was doubled! The 140 years ended in the reign of Artaxerxes, The very king who issued the final decree to restore the Temple and its sacrificial system. In the 7th year of his reign, Ezra arrived at Jerusalem 19 days before the 2300 days prophesied in Daniel 8:14 ended. And Ezra was in Jerusalem on the Day of Atonement that came AFTER the 2300 days prophesied had ended in time to witness the Sanctuary being Cleansed on the Day of Atonement in 457 BC.

This establishes my faith in the word of God. God said it, and it came to pass just as it had been foretold.

2 Peter 1:19  "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

 

[hch]

In my post above #8 "Unto could be translated as AFTER." I double checked the text. UNTO is a word that was added by the translators. it is not in the original text.

[Gregory Matthews]

There are translations, such at the NKJV, that use the word "after" and not 'unto."

This is simply a matter of translation and the choice from among a number of words that one could use.

To say that the word "Unto" is not in the original text and was added by the translator is incorrect and fails to understand the work that translators must do.  In our modern day, the word "after" is probably the best word to use.  In the time of 1611 and the KJV, the word "unto": may have been the best word to use.

Of course, both "after" and "unto" are English words and neither was in the Hebrew text as English words are not found in the Hebrew text.  But, I assume that HCH knows that.

 

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

The fact that you use the term "safe to save" suggests that we are on trial in a manner of speaking. My own personal view of IJ is that everyone who has ever claimed the name of Jesus and was in the Lamb's "Book of Life" are examined. The IJ in my viewpoint is part of the story of the book that John feared that no one was holy enough to open in Revelation. Given that God knows from eternity our outcome, the IJ is there for someone to witness. And the universe will review the outcome of the lives here on earth, God's judgement of them, and His mercy and grace in saving the ones who are save. So, the IJ is for the benefit of the unfallen universe. Which leads everyone to finally say that His ways are just.  Really, the entire situation around sin is being examined, including the lives of God's people. I am scratching my head trying to think of something related to the sin problem that is NOT being examined, although I realize that the lives of the lost will be reviewed during the millenium, but that judgement is for the saved and the Great White Throne judgement for the benefit of the lost.

I believe "the judgment" takes place in several stages, over millennia.  Please bear with me in writing a long post.  I'm trying to give a review of my understanding. 

There had to have been a judgment - in heaven - before Noah's Flood.   For the LORD to wipe out the entire human race (save 8) men/women/little children, there had to have been a "judgment".   Only 8 believed and entered the ark.

Christ's perfect offering was accepted - in Heaven - by His Father.   That was a "judgment".  The unfallen beings agreed with this judgment.  So did Enoch and Elijah and Moses. 

Those who "walked with God" - who lived during the period of the Old Testament,  I believe were resurrected by Christ just after He was resurrected by His Father.   These are now "the Twenty-four Elders" who serve in Heaven as priests.   I believe there are many more than just 24 of them.   King David divided the priesthood into 24 courses.  They came up in a rotation of about 3 weeks (all priests served on the Feast Days when many more sacrifices were offered). 

For Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and the 24 Elders to be in Heaven now, they must have been judged worthy.   In the case of Enoch and Elijah, that judgment took place before their physical death.  In the case of Moses and the 24 Elders, that judgment took place AT their deaths. These people are serving as witnesses. 

The Father draws everyone to Christ.  The names of those who respond by believing (and then serving)  are written in "the Lamb's Book of Life".  If they turn away from Christ, their names will be "blotted" from that Book.   Those whose names remain in that Book, will receive eternal life from Christ when He returns in glory.  

This process of adding names and removing names has continued since Christ returned to Heaven.  Yes - I would call this process a "judgment" by Christ.

The next judgment - will take place just before the return of Christ in glory - on that very DAY.   This will be a judgment of Satan.  Satan will be found guilty of the sins of humanity - because he incited them, either directly or by deception.  Dominion of earth will be taken legally from Satan, and will be given to Christ.   Christ will then have the court's permission to execute judgment upon Satan and the enemies of God's kingdom.  He will also execute His judgment - eternal life - upon those who are His. 

This execution of judgment is the next stage.  This will happen AT the glorious return.  Satan will be cast into the "bottomless pit" (uninhabited place).  The wicked will be resurrected "to shame and everlasting condemnation" (Daniel 12:2-3).   They will HEAR judgment pronounced against them.   They will HEAR the blessing pronounced upon the redeemed.  They will SEE the redeemed caught up to meet Him in the sky.  Exactly how the wicked - resurrected at the return of Christ, will DIE again - is unclear.  Some may be "consumed by the brightness".   Most will die in the last "vial" plagues.   They will die physically.  Their bodies will be burned up (like chaff) along with the earth. 

I believe this earth - the whole earth along with "the heavens" "will perish".   I do NOT BELIEVE that anyone, who remains on the earth after the redeemed are removed to "the Father's House", will survive.   Hebrews 1:10-12 [God the Father speaking to His Son]  “You Lord, In the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands;  they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.”  The redeemed will not return to the same old planet they left.   The will return to a "new earth" with "new heavens".  Revelation 21:1 “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.” (NRS)

The next stage of judgment - yes - will take place during the 7th millennium.   The redeemed will ask many, many questions, and will judge for themselves whether God our Father and Christ His Son, has been just with every person who is not there  (now dead).  

At the 8th millennium, "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected.   I personally do not believe "the rest" will be all of the wicked who were raised and condemned and executed at the Glorious Return.  No.  I believe "the rest" will be all of those who never had the opportunity to CHOOSE during their lifetimes - either for lack of mental maturity, or for lack of sufficient information.   These multitudes will constitute "nations" in the four corners of "the earth" (new now).  The will be governed by the redeemed - now made "kings and priests" under Christ as High Priest and King.  They will be taught "the ways of the LORD".  

Those who rebel against Christ the King, will join or support the Army of Gog/Magog.   They will be consumed by the "fire of God" as they attack Jerusalem, where Christ will reign on David's throne.

AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle,  will come the Great White Throne Judgment.  This judgment - I believe will be a final review of the records concerning all of those - now dead.  The dead will constitute ALL of lost human kind.  All of those now redeemed, will give their assent to this final destruction of the lost.

The "second death" - I believe - is a second KIND of death.  Not physical death, but rather spirit death.  God will destroy "the spirit" - that "life" which He has retained, of each individual.  I do not believe these persons will be conscious - in the sense of being resurrected again in a physical body, when this final destruction of their "lives" takes place. 

The wicked were raised at the Second Coming, to hear judgment pronounced, and then died horribly in the last plagues.  I see no reason to raise them AGAIN to consciousness, to hear judgment pronounced AGAIN, to execute them AGAIN.  I don't believe our God is that kind of vengeful tormentor - and we will be "like Him". 

There's a whopping lot of Bible study, with verses quoted and dots connected, that went into reaching my position.  I'm aware that most here will not agree with my position, but I thought I'd try to outline it anyway.  Rachel

 

  

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I believe you when you say this was YOUR personal experience. I find myself wondering just how sure you are on what EGWs opinion was.

You would like to see quotes then? 

"Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished His work in the most holy place, laid off His priestly attire, and clothed Himself with the garments of vengeance.  Then Jesus will step out from between the Father and man." Early Writings pg 36, "The Sealing".

In my view, Jesus entered "through the veil" - into the Most Holy Place" (the place where GOD sits) - when He was glorified to be High Priest in Heaven, almost 2000 years ago.  All this time, He has been adding names to His Book of Life, and blotting out names (of those who turned away from Him).

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (NKJ).

Hebrews 10:19-20  "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,  by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh." (NKJ)

There is no small curtained room in Heaven.  The special ceremonies on the Day of Atonement depicted a special work, on one special DAY - at the END of His heavenly ministry.

The ancient Day of Atonement ceremony, depicted a sentencing that will take place in Heaven, just before Christ appears in glory to execute the sentence of the heavenly court.  Satan will be found guilty of the sins of humanity (because he incited them).  He is the author of rebellion against God. 

I will try to find other quotes.

[8thdaypriest]

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I wouldnt mind seeing some scripture verses that you would use to explain/outline this idea. 

Revelation 20:7 "Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (NKJ)

COMMENTS: 

It reads like the great white throne judgment FOLLOWS after the Gog/Magog Battle.  Try reading the chapter straight through. 

The "fire" that devours the army of Gog, is NOT THE SAME as "the Lake of Fire" that consumes "the dead" and torments Satan forever and ever. 

Verse 12 says "the dead" stand before God.  If they are DEAD, then in what sense do they "stand before God".  I believe their record - the record of their lives - "stands".  "Books were opened".   "The DEAD were judged" (verse 12).  

When death and Hades (the abode of the dead) are "cast into the lake of fire" - that means everyone who is physically DEAD at this point, is completely destroyed.  At this point they are DEAD to God.  They can never be resurrected, because God has destroyed His "memory" of them.  God retains a "memory" of each individual, when they die.  It is this "memory" that God uses to resurrect.

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1Corinthians 15:26). 

  NOTE:  The Beast and the False Prophet were thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Second Coming (Rev. 19:20).    Where verse 10 says that the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet will be "tormented day and night forever and ever",  it suggests the Beast and the False Prophet are evil angels.  Don't know.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Billions and billions of human beings have died in ignorance - either because they died as children, or because they did not have enough information to know God our Father, or Jesus His Son.  In order to "be saved" a human being must BELIEVE in God, and CHOOSE to serve Him.  Very young children cannot do either.   Neither can those who NEVER HEARD.  

I do not believe God can transport into His kingdom, and give eternal life to, a human being who never CHOSE to be there.  That would be manipulation, bypassing free will.  

And I do not believe our God will "leave behind" any human being who might be saved, if only that person could HEAR and UNDERSTAND the Gospel of God's love. 

This was my reasoning.  I wrestled with the question.  HOW could the LORD teach these people, and allow them to CHOOSE?  WHEN?   I believe the LORD answered my prayers.  The only time and place available for these people to continue their physical lives, to hear the truths of God, to hear the Gospel,  to understand the ways of the LORD, to make their freewill CHOICE, is the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" at the 8th millennium.   I came to believe this in 2009 through my own study, with the help of Jesus.   My belief in this scenario has strengthened since then.     

[8thdaypriest]

This is the passage from Mrs White, that got me wrestling with the question concerning those who die in ignorance.

"I saw that he slave-master would have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and all the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master.  God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of GOD, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts.  But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate GOD can do.  He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death.  Then the wrath of GOD will be appeased."   Spiritual Gifts page 193

This is something she "saw" - not just her opinion.   Essentially she says that those who die "in ignorance" cannot be taken to Heaven.   I just could not believe that a God of love and mercy, who sent His own Son to die for them, would leave them like they were animals.  If they could HEAR the gospel, and be taught the ways of the LORD, it is very possible these people could be saved.  God can heal any amount of abuse. 

The gift of salvation should at least be offered to every human being!!  Christ died for them.