The Investigative Judgment

[hch]

6 hours ago, Gustave said:

How are the Old Testament Sanctuary services used as support for claiming Jesus didn't "sit down" at the right hand of the Father after the Resurrection? 

"Who being the brightness of His Glory, and the express image of His Person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, SAT DOWN on the right hand of the Majesty high;" Hebrews 1,3

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, SAT DOWN on the right hand of God". Hebrews 10, 12

If Jesus was crucified, died and 3 days later  Resurrected and ascended into Heaven & SAT DOWN on the right hand of God what should we make of a teaching that says Jesus got up something like 1800 years later and began sprinkling His blood inside the temple of heaven? Wouldn't that be considered "WORK"? 

"Jesus sayeth unto them, my meat is to do the will of Him that sent me and to FINISH His work". John 4,34

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT is finished". John 19,30

What is the "IT" in the above Scripture that was said to be finished? 

 

Gustave,

From the Scriptures, you must be correct that when Jesus returned to the Father after His resurrection; Christ SAT DOWN at His right hand.

In the Sacrificial system, Christ's sacrifice (crucifixion) was symbolized by the slaying of the lamb or the sacrifice (whatever it was).

1Sa 1:9  "Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD." Thus when a priest was not officiating in the Sanctuary service, he sat.

But when the priest was applying the blood of the sacrifice in the most holy place, he STOOD and he had bells and pomegranates on the bottom of his robe to testify that he was alive while he STOOD ministering before the Ark of the covenant. (cf Exodus 28:33-35)

Quote

 

10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:10, 13-14)

 

After God (the Judge) took His seat, Christ stood before Him in the Investigative Judgment to confess His people before the Father.

Quote

 ¶  And at that time shall Michael STAND UP the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: (Daniel 12:1)

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelation 3:5).

This phase of the Judgment began in 1844 and continued for a HOUR.

Quote

 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the HOUR of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters (Revelation 14:7).

 

An HOUR signifies the time of the commencement of the Judgment and the time allotted for its duration cf Strong.

Regarding Christ finishing His work. He finished the phase of being the sacrifice on Calvary as the priest finished that phase of the work when he offered a sacrifice at the altar.

The priest's work was divided into 2 phases 1) the daily 2) the yearly

Christ finished the daily at His crucifixion and began the yearly phase in Heaven in 1844 when He began to confess His people before God and the angels

Thank you for sharing.

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, hch said:

Gustave,

From the Scriptures, you must be correct that when Jesus returned to the Father after His resurrection; Christ SAT DOWN at His right hand.

In the Sacrificial system, Christ's sacrifice (crucifixion) was symbolized by the slaying of the lamb or the sacrifice (whatever it was).

1Sa 1:9  "Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the LORD." Thus when a priest was not officiating in the Sanctuary service, he sat.

But when the priest was applying the blood of the sacrifice in the most holy place, he STOOD and he had bells and pomegranates on the bottom of his robe to testify that he was alive while he STOOD ministering before the Ark of the covenant. (cf Exodus 28:33-35)

After God (the Judge) took His seat, Christ stood before Him in the Investigative Judgment to confess His people before the Father.

This phase of the Judgment began in 1844 and continued for a HOUR.

An HOUR signifies the time of the commencement of the Judgment and the time allotted for its duration cf Strong.

Regarding Christ finishing His work. He finished the phase of being the sacrifice on Calvary as the priest finished that phase of the work when he offered a sacrifice at the altar.

The priest's work was divided into 2 phases 1) the daily 2) the yearly

Christ finished the daily at His crucifixion and began the yearly phase in Heaven in 1844 when He began to confess His people before God and the angels

Thank you for sharing.

HCH, 

The Liturgical services of Judaism were fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross. It's one thing to say that Christ's once for all Sacrifice is reapplied and quite another to say it's  ongoing. Scripture speaks against Christ 'continuing' to shed His actual blood does it not? I may misunderstand the SDA position here but don't you folks claim Christ, after the Resurrection, went into a literal Temple in heaven and started performing the actual Liturgical services mirroring the Liturgical services performed by the Jewish High Priest [on earth] with the only difference being that Christ was using 'His own blood'? 

Do you believe the Investigative Judgement is now over? If it lasted for an hour what about the billions of people that were born after the IJ concluded ( in 1844 ) - do those individuals need to go through the IJ later? Will it be reopened? This seems to be a different interpretation of the IJ then was understood by SDA's in the 80's? I watched a Q&A on the John Ankerberg show where the IJ was explained as still going on at that time? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/20/2018 at 9:38 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Well, I stated that I would open it again, so I will keep my word.

This forum has gone on for 14 pages and more than 300 posts.  During its closure, not one of our members has asked me to open it again.

My perspective is that our members either want it closed, or do not care if it is closed.

So, I am thinking that it might be well to close it.

However, for now, I will open it as I said that I would do so.

 

I just took your promise to reopen it, after a "time out" for everyone.  Didn't think I needed to request it be reopened. 

I do like the topic of God's judgment, because it involves sooooo many different questions.  We could have a whole forum just for threads discussing questions involving God's judgment of human beings. 

[hch]

47 minutes ago, Gustave said:

HCH, 

The Liturgical services of Judaism were fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross. It's one thing to say that Christ's once for all Sacrifice is reapplied and quite another to say it's  ongoing. Scripture speaks against Christ 'continuing' to shed His actual blood does it not? I may misunderstand the SDA position here but don't you folks claim Christ, after the Resurrection, went into a literal Temple in heaven and started performing the actual Liturgical services mirroring the Liturgical services performed by the Jewish High Priest [on earth] with the only difference being that Christ was using 'His own blood'? 

Do you believe the Investigative Judgement is now over? If it lasted for an hour what about the billions of people that were born after the IJ concluded ( in 1844 ) - do those individuals need to go through the IJ later? Will it be reopened? This seems to be a different interpretation of the IJ then was understood by SDA's in the 80's? I watched a Q&A on the John Ankerberg show where the IJ was explained as still going on at that time? 

Gustave,

I'm trying to be short, but some things need a foundation to make the answer clear. 

If "The Liturgical services of Judaism were fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross" then the sacrifices offered by the priests would suffice in the Sanctuary services that foreshadow Christ's death and Atonement. It might be viewed in that light from the perspective of the DAILY SERVICES IN THE SANCTUARY. But the Liturgical services of Judaism relating to the yearly which included the Day of Atonement services could not be fulfilled (finished), because it included a sacrifice and the High Priest's Ministration in the Most Holy Place where the Blood was presented before the mercy seat where Shekinah glory dwelt. Christ did not stand before the Father and plead His blood in behalf of sinners when He ascended to heaven as you noted (Jesus sat by the  Father). So the Liturgical services of Judaism that foreshadow the Investigative Judgment could not have been ended at Calvary.

Do you believe the Investigative Judgement is now over? NO. It is still in progress.

If it lasted for an hour what about the billions of people that were born after the IJ concluded ( in 1844 ) The IJ commenced in 1844 at the HOUR prophesied. And its duration was prophesied to be an hour for the HOUR of His judgment has come. My SDA brethren are woefully under-studied on this topic IMHO. [ I have written 9 books on Daniel and Revelation after giving these Scriptures extensive prayerful study for years... I do not know everything about it nor do I claim to, and I am happy to learn (that's why I have not left this group long before this).

From my study, the IJ started on 22 October 1844 and is based on a 12 HOUR day (all the ceremonies in the Sanctuary on the Day of Atonement were during the DAYLIGHT HOURS). And Jesus asked are there not 12 hours in a day? His disciple Peter reaffirmed Davis's view that a day is like 1000 years to God. And lastly Ellen White reaffirmed the 6000 years for sin and 1000 year millennium that Crosier mentioned (in the  article that you mentioned earlier). An hour based on 1/12th of a 1000 year day is 83 years 4 months.

The Roman Church was one of the churches that Christ corrected in Revelation in His warnings to the 7 churches. Jesus called it by a symbolic name, but the Roman Church that sprang out of the Church that Christ established (after the Jewish Church rejected Jesus) is a historical fact. [I mention that fact to correlate prophecy and history.] 

The Roman Church was positioned as the head of all the churches and as a secular authority by the decree of Justinian who appointed and financed  Vigilius to lead it in 538 BC. From 538 to 1798 the Roman church ruled for 1260 years as explained in Daniel 7. Napoleon's general removed the pope from his authority over ALL the churches and from being a universal secular leader in 1798. That is the ground work to say the following:

Judgment begins at the house of God (cf 1 Peter 4:17 ).   The Roman Church was clearly the "house of God" when it was established by the teaching of Paul. It eventually lost its secular authority and dominance over ALL the churches (thus the Roman Church was depicted prophetically as receiving a deadly wound and as being dead) when the French imprisoned the head of the Roman church in 1798. Thus the Roman church was still dead on 22 October 1844 when the Investigative Judgment began. And it remained dead until Mussolini healed the deadly wound in 1929. The healing process began in February 1929 and continued through the summer of 1929.

Notice that the Judgment Hour (83 years 4 months) for the Judgment of the dead aligns with the time allotted for the dead Roman Church: 22 October 1844 to 22 February 1928. 

By mid summer 1929, the Roman church was revived...It was ALIVE again. On the 14 October 1929, Day of Atonement, Judgment of the living the Roman Church began. And that church continued to live with a solo leader until 28 February 2013 when Benedict XVI resigned.  Notice how the Judgment HOUR allotted to judge the living church that began on 14 October 1929 (when the church had begun to live again) extends 83 years 4 months to 14 February 2013: the solo leadership of the Roman Church aligns perfectly with that hour.

This is rehashing what I have in my book. And when I posted these details in other topics on this forum, Gregory, closed down the conversations. He had done it 4 or 5 times so I am hesitant to say more. But the foundation was needed to answer your questions.

If it [IJ] lasted for an hour what about the billions of people that were born after the IJ concluded ( in 1844 ) - do those individuals need to go through the IJ later? Will it be reopened? As I READ THE SCRIPTURES the time allotted to judge the dead has ended. All those who have died professing a belief in God have been Judged. Since the time allotted for the Judgment of the living has also ended, OUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN in the LAMB's book of LIFE or they have been removed from the LAMB's book of LIFE. BUT this is like a store having an inventory where everything has been counted. Stock can be sold and restocked on the shelves and the inventory is updated in real time until the time and date for them to file the paperwork. 

So those who are lukewarm may have their names in the LAMB's book of LIFE in a shaky status and those who have yet to hear of Jesus can have their names placed into the LAMB's book of LIFE! Currently, WE ARE IN THE FINAL SEALING TIME. 

My view is gleaned by years of prayerful study. I will differ from that of other SDA's. But very few of the SDA's that have read my latest book disagree with the synopsis above after they have looked at all of the facts. Generally those who disagree have not looked at all of the facts. They "cherry pick" and hold me to a higher standard than God held the Adventist believers to in 1844 when they did not have everything right. EGW stated that by their fulfillment, Daniel and Revelation would explain themselves.

Before Daniel and Revelation explained themselves, I had some ideas that did not prove to be right. After history met prophecy, I was blessed to be able to grow in knowledge and I praise God that He is LONGSUFFERING.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave asked in the quote below:

The answer to your question is No!    However, it has several parts to it, which I will attempt to address.

 

*  I have never heard any SDA teaching that Jesus, in heaven, was using his own blood in a service in the heavenly temple.   Christ accomplished, on the Cross all that needed to be accomplished.  At no time beyond that death on the cross has Christ ever been required to use his blood to effect our salvation.   That was totally accomplished at the cross.

*  There is a SDA teaching that there is an actual Temple in heaven, as we now know it.  The book of Revelation teaches that the Temple exists where God is.  It does  not further describe that Temple..  Anyone who attempts describe a heavenly temple in terms of a building, walls etc., is  going well beyond what the Bible says and is outside of SDA teaching.  In short, the Bible simply does not describe the materials used in any buildings in heaven.  It is silent on that and anything that suggests such is speculative and without foundation.

*  The Biblical description of the Temple, as given  to Israel is a representation in human terms that is supposed to  teach about the plan of salvation.  It is NOT supposed to be a mirror image of something in heaven.  No one should use the description given to Israel to be an image  of what is in heaven.

Th

e Liturgical services of Judaism were fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross. It's one thing to say that Christ's once for all Sacrifice is reapplied and quite another to say it's  ongoing. Scripture speaks against Christ 'continuing' to shed His actual blood does it not? I may misunderstand the SDA position here but don't you folks claim Christ, after the Resurrection, went into a literal Temple in heaven and started performing the actual Liturgical services mirroring the Liturgical services performed by the Jewish High Priest [on earth] with the only difference being that Christ was using 'His own blood'? 

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH has stated in the quote below:

He may have written nine (9) books on this subject, and given it much study.  All of that is understandable, as just about all of his specific predictions posted here in this forum have failed to come to pass in the specific manner that he predicted, which has required a rewrite.

HIs views as to a 12 hour prophetic day are not supported by the Bible.  They are not the teachings of the SDA Church.  They are   rejected by students of the Bible.

In short they are the product of HCH  reading into Scripture what he wants to find. 

By the way, he often quotes from himself.

Quote

The IJ commenced in 1844 at the HOUR prophesied. And its duration was prophesied to be an hour for

the HOUR of His judgment has come. My SDA brethren are woefully under-studied on this topic IMHO. [ I have written 9 books on Daniel and Revelation after giving these Scriptures extensive prayerful study for years... I do not know everything about it nor do I claim to, and I am happy to learn (that's why I have not left this group long before this).

From my study, the IJ started on 22 October 1844 and is based on a 12 HOUR day (all the ceremonies in the Sanctuary on the Day of Atonement were during the DAYLIGHT HOURS). And Jesus asked are there not 12 hours in a day? His disciple Peter reaffirmed Davis's view that a day is like 1000 years to God. And lastly Ellen White reaffirmed the 6000 years for sin and 1000 year millennium that Crosier mentioned (in the  article that you mentioned earlier). An hour based on 1/12th of a 1000 year day is 83 years 4 months.

[B/W Photodude]

Thoughts to ponder - 

Let us not be troubled by idle prophecies as to the end of the world, even if they claim to be interpretations of Scripture, for what angels do not know has certainly not been revealed to hair-brained fanatics. - Charles Spurgeon - The Prince of Preachers

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

*  There is a SDA teaching that there is an actual Temple in heaven, as we now know it.  The book of Revelation teaches that the Temple exists where God is.  It does  not further describe that Temple.

The Apostle John wrote, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Rev 21:22

This verse alone makes me rethink everything I thought I knew about the Sanctuary Service. The temple does not exist where God is, He is the Temple. Now, think about what the cleansing of the Sanctuary is. And don't forget to also consider what the cleansing of the sanctuary means when Paul writes that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

[Gregory Matthews]

If God is the Temple, then the Temple exists wherever God is.

Your statement and my statement do not conflict.

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

IF the temple exists wherever God is, then we have pantheism. Or atleast one version of it. Are you sure thats what this ONE verse means when compared with other scripture?

This is where Gregory and I really do differ. The temple is not where God is, He IS the Temple. There is no physical building called the temple. So, God and even ourselves are temples.  The temple is not an accessory. And both temples must be cleansed. That is not pantheism. Do keep in mind that there sanctuary service as seen in the desert temple and the temple in Jerusalem were parables of redemption. In fact, much of the Bible is parable. Much of the teaching Jesus did on earth was in parable and why should it be any different in the written Word of God?

Interestingly, in Daniel 12:1, when Jesus (Michael) stands up - - " And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1 - - this is often cited as meaning the IJ is finished. However, was He in a sanctuary mediating for His people? No. He was sitting at the right hand of the Father. So, the judgement seems to me to be a one - one discussion of each name in the Book of Life and probably a heavenly court gathered around. I believe the 24 elders are witnesses to this judgement.

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

May I ask, please Gustave, what do you see as "wrong" with this idea of Christ ministering in the heavenly sanctuary? I would like to understand your view on that point. 

Scripture describes Jesus as our High Priest so I have no problem with that - I only find the SDA understanding of Christ's 'ministering' to be odd. 

Hebrews 9 contrasts the High Priests of the earthly with Jesus as THE High Priest.

"But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation: Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having OBTAINED [past tense] eternal redemption".

It says in Hebrews that Jesus had already "entered" into the holies and that He had already "obtained" redemption for humanity - these things were understood to have already happened by the time St. Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews. The SDA position is that in 1844 Jesus entered into the holies - this appears to conflict with the account of the matter in Hebrews.

If the context of Hebrews 9 is contrasting Jesus as the High Priest with High Priests of the Temple from Moses to Jesus - it is obvious that Jews prior to Jesus were not made 'right with God' until the High Priest entered the holies that one time per year - the headline in Hebrews 9 is that Jesus is BETTER and that He entered the holies once and in doing so obtained the eternal redemption - something the earthly High Priest could NEVER accomplish. 

So, I have no problem with Jesus being our High Priest because according to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition He certainly is. It just seems strange to have a teaching burp up that claims Christ didn't enter into the holies prior to the writing of the Book of Hebrews when Hebrews says Jesus had already entered into the holies and obtained eternal redemption. 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

12 hours ago, Gustave said:

Do you believe the Investigative Judgement is now over? If it lasted for an hour what about the billions of people that were born after the IJ concluded ( in 1844 ) - do those individuals need to go through the IJ later? Will it be reopened? This seems to be a different interpretation of the IJ then was understood by SDA's in the 80's? I watched a Q&A on the John Ankerberg show where the IJ was explained as still going on at that time? 

You seem to be questioning the SDA stance on the IJ, but have some misunderstandings. The IJ was not concluded in 1844, but was started in 1844 and continues today.

After the IJ is concluded, it is closed forever. Some religions believe in "2nd chances, but I do not see it in the Bible. Just like those outside of Noah's ark, the door remained shut.

What SDAs "understood in the 80s" is an interesting concept. There have been groups that jumped track and took up different beliefs, but there is also a group who pretty much believes what SDAs have believed for well over 100 years. Thus disunity, to Satan's satisfaction continues even today.

I would not really rely on a John Ankerberg explanation of the IJ. He is a Baptist minister. There are Baptist preachers that I like very much, but I do not rely on them for understanding such things as the IJ

[Gustave]

9 hours ago, hch said:

Gustave,

I'm trying to be short, but some things need a foundation to make the answer clear. 

If "The Liturgical services of Judaism were fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross" then the sacrifices offered by the priests would suffice in the Sanctuary services that foreshadow Christ's death and Atonement. It might be viewed in that light from the perspective of the DAILY SERVICES IN THE SANCTUARY. But the Liturgical services of Judaism relating to the yearly which included the Day of Atonement services could not be fulfilled (finished), because it included a sacrifice and the High Priest's Ministration in the Most Holy Place where the Blood was presented before the mercy seat where Shekinah glory dwelt. Christ did not stand before the Father and plead His blood in behalf of sinners when He ascended to heaven as you noted (Jesus sat by the  Father). So the Liturgical services of Judaism that foreshadow the Investigative Judgment could not have been ended at Calvary.

Do you believe the Investigative Judgement is now over? NO. It is still in progress.

If it lasted for an hour what about the billions of people that were born after the IJ concluded ( in 1844 ) The IJ commenced in 1844 at the HOUR prophesied. And its duration was prophesied to be an hour for the HOUR of His judgment has come. My SDA brethren are woefully under-studied on this topic IMHO. [ I have written 9 books on Daniel and Revelation after giving these Scriptures extensive prayerful study for years... I do not know everything about it nor do I claim to, and I am happy to learn (that's why I have not left this group long before this).

From my study, the IJ started on 22 October 1844 and is based on a 12 HOUR day (all the ceremonies in the Sanctuary on the Day of Atonement were during the DAYLIGHT HOURS). And Jesus asked are there not 12 hours in a day? His disciple Peter reaffirmed Davis's view that a day is like 1000 years to God. And lastly Ellen White reaffirmed the 6000 years for sin and 1000 year millennium that Crosier mentioned (in the  article that you mentioned earlier). An hour based on 1/12th of a 1000 year day is 83 years 4 months.

The Roman Church was one of the churches that Christ corrected in Revelation in His warnings to the 7 churches. Jesus called it by a symbolic name, but the Roman Church that sprang out of the Church that Christ established (after the Jewish Church rejected Jesus) is a historical fact. [I mention that fact to correlate prophecy and history.] 

The Roman Church was positioned as the head of all the churches and as a secular authority by the decree of Justinian who appointed and financed  Vigilius to lead it in 538 BC. From 538 to 1798 the Roman church ruled for 1260 years as explained in Daniel 7. Napoleon's general removed the pope from his authority over ALL the churches and from being a universal secular leader in 1798. That is the ground work to say the following:

Judgment begins at the house of God (cf 1 Peter 4:17 ).   The Roman Church was clearly the "house of God" when it was established by the teaching of Paul. It eventually lost its secular authority and dominance over ALL the churches (thus the Roman Church was depicted prophetically as receiving a deadly wound and as being dead) when the French imprisoned the head of the Roman church in 1798. Thus the Roman church was still dead on 22 October 1844 when the Investigative Judgment began. And it remained dead until Mussolini healed the deadly wound in 1929. The healing process began in February 1929 and continued through the summer of 1929.

Notice that the Judgment Hour (83 years 4 months) for the Judgment of the dead aligns with the time allotted for the dead Roman Church: 22 October 1844 to 22 February 1928. 

By mid summer 1929, the Roman church was revived...It was ALIVE again. On the 14 October 1929, Day of Atonement, Judgment of the living the Roman Church began. And that church continued to live with a solo leader until 28 February 2013 when Benedict XVI resigned.  Notice how the Judgment HOUR allotted to judge the living church that began on 14 October 1929 (when the church had begun to live again) extends 83 years 4 months to 14 February 2013: the solo leadership of the Roman Church aligns perfectly with that hour.

This is rehashing what I have in my book. And when I posted these details in other topics on this forum, Gregory, closed down the conversations. He had done it 4 or 5 times so I am hesitant to say more. But the foundation was needed to answer your questions.

If it [IJ] lasted for an hour what about the billions of people that were born after the IJ concluded ( in 1844 ) - do those individuals need to go through the IJ later? Will it be reopened? As I READ THE SCRIPTURES the time allotted to judge the dead has ended. All those who have died professing a belief in God have been Judged. Since the time allotted for the Judgment of the living has also ended, OUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN in the LAMB's book of LIFE or they have been removed from the LAMB's book of LIFE. BUT this is like a store having an inventory where everything has been counted. Stock can be sold and restocked on the shelves and the inventory is updated in real time until the time and date for them to file the paperwork. 

So those who are lukewarm may have their names in the LAMB's book of LIFE in a shaky status and those who have yet to hear of Jesus can have their names placed into the LAMB's book of LIFE! Currently, WE ARE IN THE FINAL SEALING TIME. 

My view is gleaned by years of prayerful study. I will differ from that of other SDA's. But very few of the SDA's that have read my latest book disagree with the synopsis above after they have looked at all of the facts. Generally those who disagree have not looked at all of the facts. They "cherry pick" and hold me to a higher standard than God held the Adventist believers to in 1844 when they did not have everything right. EGW stated that by their fulfillment, Daniel and Revelation would explain themselves.

Before Daniel and Revelation explained themselves, I had some ideas that did not prove to be right. After history met prophecy, I was blessed to be able to grow in knowledge and I praise God that He is LONGSUFFERING.

1. Hebrews 9,12 is explicit that Jesus entered the holies prior to the Book of Hebrews being written & that His entering was ONE & DONE. 

2. Hebrews 9, 7-8 is explicit that the former High Priests entered once into the holies per year, year after year.

3. Hebrews 9,24 is explicit that Jesus had already entered into the holies when the Book of Hebrews was written.

4. The Catholic Church is not what you need it to be simply because you say it is - to validate your rubrics. 

[Gustave]

11 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

You seem to be questioning the SDA stance on the IJ, but have some misunderstandings. The IJ was not concluded in 1844, but was started in 1844 and continues today.

After the IJ is concluded, it is closed forever. Some religions believe in "2nd chances, but I do not see it in the Bible. Just like those outside of Noah's ark, the door remained shut.

What SDAs "understood in the 80s" is an interesting concept. There have been groups that jumped track and took up different beliefs, but there is also a group who pretty much believes what SDAs have believed for well over 100 years. Thus disunity, to Satan's satisfaction continues even today.

I would not really rely on a John Ankerberg explanation of the IJ. He is a Baptist minister. There are Baptist preachers that I like very much, but I do not rely on them for understanding such things as the IJ

Admittedly, I probably have many misunderstandings about the SDA I.J. 

Another SDA poster on this forum had said the Judgement continued for an hour after it started in 1844 & from that statement I thought something had changed in the I.J. from the 80's Ankerberg show - the Ankerberg show interviewed two SDA's who claimed that the I.J. was still going on at that time - that's why I asked. 

What group pretty much believes what the SDA's believe for well over 100 years? 

[B/W Photodude]

14 minutes ago, Gustave said:

What group pretty much believes what the SDA's believe for well over 100 years? 

This one may ruffle some feathers, but there seems to be two groups in Adventism - - progressives and traditionals. Even ChristianForums.org separates Adventists that way and will even move posts that appear to be in the "wrong" forum to the "right" one. And by that I mean, a progressive sounding post in the traditional adventist forum will be sent to the progressive forum. That wasn't a a judgement of correctness, just the appropriate forum. There are even whole websites dedicated to one or the other. 

Just by the name - traditional - you can get a clue that the traditional SDAs try to stick most closely to what the original founders believed. Tradtionals are probably more likely to appreciate the writings of Ellen White. However, actual reading of her writings are declining rapidly and some in administrative or conference leadership will lament that maybe 2% of church members even read her writings anymore.

So, you will have groups believing in the IJ one way such as in perfection of character or other groups believing that you will be able to sin right up to Jesus comes again. A simplistic explanation as that is just one point that gets argued. You may even get varying stories about how this "split" came about and there seem to be almost as many thoughts as there are people thinking.

So, disagreement seems to be the rule today and probably many will disagree with this post also. C'est la vie!

[B/W Photodude]

5 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Doesn't Hebrews 7 and other passages suggest that IN HEAVEN; Jesus has a CONTINUING Priesthood?

Keep in mind that there was a daily ministry by the priest and a Day of Atonement ministry. As mentioned by others, even on the Day of Atonement, the daily sacrifices continued. So, even today while the IJ progresses, the daily ministry of Jesus continues. Forgiveness of sin continues and character "remodeling" also continues.

[B/W Photodude]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont think that the CONTINUING ministry of Jesus, as referred to in Heb 7 has the slightest thought or concern about al this daily and/or yearly hub-bub. Where does Scripture even ask us to worry about that?

Because they are two distinctly different types of ministry. The daily is that ministry where Jesus is forgiving sins but also making His people like Himself. The yearly is a reference to who should be saved.

I recently heard a sermon, which I discovered was rooted in something someone wrote in the early seventies, discussing the close of probation. The idea was put forth that the close of probation was not a close leaving some waiting for their sins to be forgiven, but a going out of business act. God's people will have been made like Him (and sealed) and those not are those who are not even looking for forgiveness of sin or to  be like God as the Holy Spirit has left them. This goes along with the idea as expressed by some that no one asks forgiveness of sin without the influence of the Holy Spirit.

[hch]

8 hours ago, Gustave said:

Scripture describes Jesus as our High Priest so I have no problem with that - I only find the SDA understanding of Christ's 'ministering' to be odd. 

Hebrews 9 contrasts the High Priests of the earthly with Jesus as THE High Priest.

"But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation: Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having OBTAINED [past tense] eternal redemption".

It says in Hebrews that Jesus had already "entered" into the holies and that He had already "obtained" redemption for humanity - these things were understood to have already happened by the time St. Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews. The SDA position is that in 1844 Jesus entered into the holies - this appears to conflict with the account of the matter in Hebrews.

If the context of Hebrews 9 is contrasting Jesus as the High Priest with High Priests of the Temple from Moses to Jesus - it is obvious that Jews prior to Jesus were not made 'right with God' until the High Priest entered the holies that one time per year - the headline in Hebrews 9 is that Jesus is BETTER and that He entered the holies once and in doing so obtained the eternal redemption - something the earthly High Priest could NEVER accomplish. 

So, I have no problem with Jesus being our High Priest because according to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition He certainly is. It just seems strange to have a teaching burp up that claims Christ didn't enter into the holies prior to the writing of the Book of Hebrews when Hebrews says Jesus had already entered into the holies and obtained eternal redemption. 

Gustave,

The Temple on earth had 3 compartments. 1) the courtyard, 2) The holies, and 3) the most Moly

Christ's crucifixion, was upon earth, which is symbolic of the courtyard where the altar of sacrifice and laver were.

On earth Christ was baptized and crucified.

Christ entering heaven would thus be like the earthly priest entering the holies (the first compartment in the Temple).

The lampstand, table of showbread and altar of incense was in this compartment.

In Revelation 2& 3, Jesus shows John that He is walking among the 7 lampstands that symbolize the 7 churches (first compartment). 

Christ's ministry continued in the holies until it was time for Him to enter the Most Holy.

As I have shown in previous postings, from the fall of Jerusalem in 605 BC Jeremiah's 70 years doubled and Daniel's 2300 days ended in 457 BC

At which time the rebuilt Temple was cleansed. (The High Priest left the holies to enter into the Holy of Holies, i.e., the third compartment)

But the destruction of Solomon's temple was predicted by Ezekiel to be linked to a day for a year (cf Ezekiel 4-6)

Thus as the rebuilt Temple was cleansed after the end of the 2300 literal days predicted in Daniel 8:14

Revelation 14 confirms that Heaven's Temple is cleansed after the 2300 years ends.

from 457 BC the 2300 years extend to 1843, when the Christians awaiting Christ's Advent expected Him to cleanse the world with fire

1843 aligns with prophetic calculations from Daniel's side of Calvary

When Christ did not come the early Advents assumed that they had made a mistake calculating the date

After they learned that there was no year zero when BC transitioned to AD, they saw that 1844 was the date prophesied.

1844 aligns prophecies with this side of Calvary.

But Jesus did not come in 1843 or 1844. God's people were wrong again.
But their error was not as scoffers assumed. The 2 dates 1843 & 1844 established the TARRYING TIME foretold by Habakkuk

Quote

Hab 2:3  For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

 

Since the time prophecies were correct and 1844 was the date for the Cleansing of the sanctuary: The problem was that there was no sanctuary in Jerusalem to be cleansed.

And the earth was obviously not the sanctuary that was to be cleansed by fire at Christ's Advent

More Bible study: The book of Hebrews reveals that there is a Temple in Heaven.

The Lamb's book for LIFE in Heaven is where the names of the saints are recorded. Those books were opened in 1844 to begin the Investigative Judgment (Daniel 7).

THERE IS NO PROOF FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT THAT CAN BE PRESENTED TO MORTALS.

It is a Doctrine that is totally established by the word of God and accepted by faith.

No one can go to Heaven to confirm it The word of God is the witness that it is true.

And then there is the witness of Ellen White. She states that in vision she went to Heaven and saw the Temple and Christ ministering there.

The word of God and the Testimony of Ellen White are two witnesses that agree in their Testimony.

But it is by FAITH that we know that the Investigative Judgment is of God.

As it was in the Days of Noah, by faith he entered the ark.

As it was in the Days of Lot, by faith he left the cities.

As it was in the Days of Abraham, by faith he left his country following a promise from God.

The book of Hebrews that tells of Heaven's Sanctuary is a book that points out the need to have FAITH.

[Gustave]

10 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I think there may be a bit of confusion regarding the specific Adventist positions on this; however, if we build upon this point where Jesus "had already entered," I am reminded of the following:

Doesn't Hebrews 7 and other passages suggest that IN HEAVEN; Jesus has a CONTINUING Priesthood?

Yes, Jesus is our perpetual High Priest who entered ONCE into the holies at His ascension and having obtained redemption sat down at the right hand of God the Father. 

Jesus is our Prophet, Priest & King - that He continues to be our High Priest doesn't mean He's continually practicing Jewish Liturgical rubrics in heaven - because Scripture describes His High Priest Liturgical function to be a one shot thing and it happened before the Book of Hebrews was written. 

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, hch said:

Gustave,

The Temple on earth had 3 compartments. 1) the courtyard, 2) The holies, and 3) the most Moly

Christ's crucifixion, was upon earth, which is symbolic of the courtyard where the altar of sacrifice and laver were.

On earth Christ was baptized and crucified.

Christ entering heaven would thus be like the earthly priest entering the holies (the first compartment in the Temple).

The lampstand, table of showbread and altar of incense was in this compartment.

In Revelation 2& 3, Jesus shows John that He is walking among the 7 lampstands that symbolize the 7 churches (first compartment). 

Christ's ministry continued in the holies until it was time for Him to enter the Most Holy.

As I have shown in previous postings, from the fall of Jerusalem in 605 BC Jeremiah's 70 years doubled and Daniel's 2300 days ended in 457 BC

At which time the rebuilt Temple was cleansed. (The High Priest left the holies to enter into the Holy of Holies, i.e., the third compartment)

But the destruction of Solomon's temple was predicted by Ezekiel to be linked to a day for a year (cf Ezekiel 4-6)

Thus as the rebuilt Temple was cleansed after the end of the 2300 literal days predicted in Daniel 8:14

Revelation 14 confirms that Heaven's Temple is cleansed after the 2300 years ends.

from 457 BC the 2300 years extend to 1843, when the Christians awaiting Christ's Advent expected Him to cleanse the world with fire

1843 aligns with prophetic calculations from Daniel's side of Calvary

When Christ did not come the early Advents assumed that they had made a mistake calculating the date

After they learned that there was no year zero when BC transitioned to AD, they saw that 1844 was the date prophesied.

1844 aligns prophecies with this side of Calvary.

But Jesus did not come in 1843 or 1844. God's people were wrong again.
But their error was not as scoffers assumed. The 2 dates 1843 & 1844 established the TARRYING TIME foretold by Habakkuk

Since the time prophecies were correct and 1844 was the date for the Cleansing of the sanctuary: The problem was that there was no sanctuary in Jerusalem to be cleansed.

And the earth was obviously not the sanctuary that was to be cleansed by fire at Christ's Advent

More Bible study: The book of Hebrews reveals that there is a Temple in Heaven.

The Lamb's book for LIFE in Heaven is where the names of the saints are recorded. Those books were opened in 1844 to begin the Investigative Judgment (Daniel 7).

THERE IS NO PROOF FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT THAT CAN BE PRESENTED TO MORTALS.

It is a Doctrine that is totally established by the word of God and accepted by faith.

No one can go to Heaven to confirm it The word of God is the witness that it is true.

And then there is the witness of Ellen White. She states that in vision she went to Heaven and saw the Temple and Christ ministering there.

The word of God and the Testimony of Ellen White are two witnesses that agree in their Testimony.

But it is by FAITH that we know that the Investigative Judgment is of God.

As it was in the Days of Noah, by faith he entered the ark.

As it was in the Days of Lot, by faith he left the cities.

As it was in the Days of Abraham, by faith he left his country following a promise from God.

The book of Hebrews that tells of Heaven's Sanctuary is a book that points out the need to have FAITH.

You claim the temple on earth had three compartments? 

"The former indeed had also justifications of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

² For there was a tabernacle made the first, wherein were the candlesticks, and the table, and the setting forth of loaves, which is called the holy.

³ And after the second veil, the tabernacle, which is called the holy of holies:

⁴ Having a golden censer, and the ark of the testament covered about on every part with gold, in which was a golden pot that had manna, and the rod of Aaron, that had blossomed, and the tables of the testament.

⁵ And over it were the cherubims of glory overshadowing the propitiatory: of which it is not needful to speak now particularly.

⁶ Now these things being thus ordered, into the first tabernacle the priests indeed always entered, accomplishing the offices of sacrifices.

⁷ But into the second, the high priest alone, once a year: not without blood, which he offereth for his own, and the people's ignorance:

⁸ The Holy Ghost signifying this, that the way into the holies was not yet made manifest, whilst the former tabernacle was yet standing.

⁹ Which is a parable of the time present: according to which gifts and sacrifices are offered, which can not, as to the conscience, make him perfect that serveth, only in meats and in drinks,

¹⁰ And divers washings, and justices of the flesh laid on them until the time of correction.

¹¹ But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation:

¹² Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption".

 

So, it doesn't matter how many compartments were in the temple because the text says that after the 2nd veil was the holy of holies AND that Jesus entered the holies as a High Priest once. 

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

The Apostle John wrote, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Rev 21:22

This verse alone makes me rethink everything I thought I knew about the Sanctuary Service. The temple does not exist where God is, He is the Temple. Now, think about what the cleansing of the Sanctuary is. And don't forget to also consider what the cleansing of the sanctuary means when Paul writes that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 8:1-2 "Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man." (NKJ)

If the Lord "erected" the tabernacle, that suggests (to me) that "the tabernacle" is not God Himself, but rather something God created.  Could the true Tabernacle be the place where God's creation meets God - the intersection point, the meeting point. 

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;" (NKJ)

Again - the point of meeting or intersection, where God and mankind meet.  Christ, representing mankind - meets God.  And God - in Christ - meets mankind. 

Hebrews 8:5 [priests] "who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." (NKJ)

The wilderness Tabernacle [later the Temple] was a copy of "heavenly things".  The services of the Tabernacle - within the "tent" - were a symbolic revelation of the work of Christ in "heaven itself" - the "true tabernacle" - where God is. 

The "cleansing" of "heaven itself" would be the revelation to all created beings, that the charges spoken against God and His government, are completely false.  God did not cause sin or rebellion - not by the design of His creation, and not by any of His dealings with His creation.    God is not unjust.  He has also done everything divinely possible to reconcile His creation to Himself.  He could not change His Law.  He could only demonstrate the wisdom and rightness of His Law.  He also allowed sin to be developed to its fullest - and thereby revealed the sure and certain result or end of that rebellious mind set.  Both revelations - the one of sin, and the other of God's wisdom and love,  together work to reconcile created beings to God. 

[8thdaypriest]

The Lamb IS the Tabernacle, in the sense that He is the place of meeting between God and human beings. 

He came to "tabernacle" with us.  The veil (a part of the Tabernacle) symbolized "His flesh". 

I do not foresee a time when Christ will not be the meeting place, the mediator, the intersection.  He will be "a priest forever".   This is the way God created it - from the beginning.

From the very beginning, God the Father communicated with His created beings THROUGH His Son.  This would have been the arrangement, whether or not Satan had rebelled.   Why would the Father change His way of communicating once His creation (at least a good part of it) is reconciled to Him? 

Ezekiel 37:27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

[8thdaypriest]

The TOPIC of judgment - is a discussion of how the Creator deals with those created beings who rebel against Him, wanting to do things their own way.   This topic goes to the heart of our relationship with our Creator. 

This TOPIC includes much, much more than just the 1844 question. 

[LifeHiscost]

8 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The TOPIC of judgment - is a discussion of how the Creator deals with those created beings who rebel against Him, wanting to do things their own way.   This topic goes to the heart of our relationship with our Creator. 

This TOPIC includes much, much more than just the 1844 question. 

Often Christians and others see the Creator God, of which there is only one, as someone to fear, failing to recognize that His judgements for those who pay heed to His commands and are written in the Lambs book of life, are judgements that assure life, peace and security. all of which are gifts, of which Jesus already paid for them.

:31 but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.   Isaiah 40 NIV

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[8thdaypriest]

2 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

His judgements for those who pay heed to His commands and are written in the Lambs book of life

LHC,  Can you give a reference from Scripture, where "judgments", either for or against individuals, were "written in" The Book?   From what I've found, ONLY NAMES were written in that Book.  A name is either written in that Book, or is blotted out of that book.  The Book is the Lamb's Book of eternal life.  If ones name is "in the Book" then that person will receive eternal life.  If one's name is "blotted out" from that Book, then he will not receive eternal life.