The Investigative Judgment

[8thdaypriest]

Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

This is a scary one.

[8thdaypriest]

John 16:11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

John 16:11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

So Satan has ALREADY been judged and condemned.  That being so, it sorta goes along with my belief that the Daniel 7 judgment where Christ appears before the judges, is to pronounce sentence.

[8thdaypriest]

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (NKJ).

Those who will be "judged by the law" are the people who knew the law, or at least new about it  (yet remained intentionally ignorant). 

[8thdaypriest]

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

"Judge the world" could mean judging like Samuel judged Israel, as in ruling or governing, rather than serving as a jury to decide the final sentence for a crime. 

Goes with  2 Timothy 2:12.  "If we endure, We shall also reign with Him."  Priests and kings both governed.  The redeemed will be both.

[8thdaypriest]

James 2:12 "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."

Which law, is "the law of liberty"?

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

"Judge the world" could mean judging like Samuel judged Israel, as in ruling or governing, rather than serving as a jury to decide the final sentence for a crime. 

Goes with  2 Timothy 2:12.  "If we endure, We shall also reign with Him."  Priests and kings both governed.  The redeemed will be both.

Wonderful followup on my previous biblical quote. Here's another beautiful example of suffering caused by the god of this world but turned for good by the God of Heaven. Watch this weeks(todays) program.

https://lifestyle.org/about-the-show/watch-this-weeks-show/

"Life Without Limits" By Nick Vujicic

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

James 2:12 "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."

Which law, is "the law of liberty"?

I would suggest the law Jesus followed.

 

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

James 2:12 "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."

Which law, is "the law of liberty"?

I would say it is the law that liberates me from death resulting from my sin.

Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

One "law" results in death.  The other "law" frees from death.  BOTH are God's laws. 

[8thdaypriest]

2 Corinthians 3:7-8 "Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? (NIV)

I used to puzzle over this one - calling the Sinai Covenant a "ministry of death".   But I have since realized that without the Spirit within, the 10Cs are a "ministry of death".  They can only instruct and condemn when we fail.  They cannot empower. 

The "law of the Spirit of life" is the power within, which enables willing obedience with understanding. 

It is so terribly sad, that hardly anyone understands that Christ can and will change us - totally change us.  We have only to give Him permission.  But we must believe that He IS, before we can give Him that permission. 

The first step (if there is such a thing) is to look at the evidence from science, ancient history, archeology, etc., and come to believe that HE IS.   Before today, the science was not that strong.  Today it is growing stronger by the day.   Back in the days of the Apostles, back when the evidence was not as strong, miracles were needed to help folks come to believe that HE IS. 

I say "back in the day", but my husband was given more than one extraordinary miracle.  He could not deny the existence of a kind and loving supernatural Being.  Then he had to begin to learn what that Being wants of us.  Then he had to give "the permission". 

Just FYI,  I love the program "Creation in the 21st Century" on the TBN channel.   The scientist special guests have brought me much closer to belief in an actual six day creation week.

[Gustave]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:40 PM, B/W Photodude said:

Keep in mind that there was a daily ministry by the priest and a Day of Atonement ministry. As mentioned by others, even on the Day of Atonement, the daily sacrifices continued. So, even today while the IJ progresses, the daily ministry of Jesus continues. Forgiveness of sin continues and character "remodeling" also continues.

Do you believe that the SDA Investigative Judgement ( as in 1844 ) was foretold by the Old Testament?

[hch]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 11:01 PM, Gustave said:

1. Hebrews 9,12 is explicit that Jesus entered the holies prior to the Book of Hebrews being written & that His entering was ONE & DONE. 

2. Hebrews 9, 7-8 is explicit that the former High Priests entered once into the holies per year, year after year.

3. Hebrews 9,24 is explicit that Jesus had already entered into the holies when the Book of Hebrews was written.

Gustave,

Let's look at the evidence.

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For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;   Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; (Hebrews 9:2-4)

 

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 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle (Revelation 1:12-13)

Shortly after Jesus ascended to Heaven, John saw Jesus in Heaven in the first compartment where the candlesticks were.

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 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11:18-19)

When the Judgment of the dead began, John saw Jesus move into the holies of holy where the ark resides. The Sanctuary service in the earthly Temple shows that the Atonement is made before the ARK of the Covenant. Jesus the Priest, was ministering before the ark in Heaven when the judgment of the dead commenced. When did the Judgment of the dead begin?

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 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed (Daniel 8:14)

 

It has been shown in earlier posts that the cleansing of the Sanctuary was to take place at the end of 2300 years, in 1844. At that time there was no sanctuary on earth to be cleansed, Thus the cleansing of the Sanctuary at the time that the dead are judged refers to the Sanctuary in Heaven as John reported. 

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 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters (Revelation 14:7).

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For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)  

The Judgment begins at the house of God. The Judgment of the dead began in Heaven when Christ moved from the compartment where the Candlesticks were to the compartment where the ark was. Daniel prophecy reveals that the Judgment would begin in 1844. Revelation 14 states that it began. As you noted Jesus entered the holy of holies once. When He leaves it, He will not go back to make atonement for any one else (the judgment process will be finished.)

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4. The Catholic Church is not what you need it to be simply because you say it is - to validate your rubrics. 

 

 

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Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Acts 10:34)

When the Jewish church failed to accept Christ as the Messiah, God allowed the Christian Church to fulfill His purpose. The Christian Church morphed into the Roman Church. When the Roman Church failed to fulfill God's commission, God replaced it (as He had replaced the Jewish Church) with the churches that formed during the Reformation. Now that the Reformed churches have returned to the errors that caused the schism during the Reformation, Christ is preparing to return to dispense judgment upon all the Churches. 
Review the messages to the 7 Churches. 5 of the 7 churches had left their first love. BUT EVEN IN THOSE CHURCHES CHRIST FOUND FAITHFUL PEOPLE. The messages of warning encouraged the remnant of those Churches to remain faithful even though their beloved churches were not as God would have them. And before Christ Comes the message goes forth to God's sincere people regarding their relationship to their churches that have become Babylon:

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And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication (Revelation 14:8).

 

The world is not ignorant regarding the fornication that has plagued the Roman Church on the eve of Christ's Advent. Protestant America has made this fornication a form of marriage. The command is unmistakable: Babylon is fornicating. Come out of her My people. Those churches that accept Babylon's fornication are a part of Babylon. God's people are commanded to come out of them that they receive not of her plagues. That is self explanatory. 

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I am sure the person you asked this question will also answer. I look at it like this. Both OT and NT are united on this point about the IJ:

.

Luke 24, 27 has Jesus explaining to His Apostles, starting with Moses and ALL the Prophets - the things concerning Himself.

Certainly, if the IJ, as SDA's promulgate it, was the apex of Christ's work it would have factored in the history of the Apostolic Church - we would have seen mention of it.

Hebrews 9 is crystal clear that ONLY the High Priest entered into the holies ONCE a year.

"The Holy Ghost signifying this, that the way into the holies was not yet made manifest"

The text then makes clear that it is talking about the place that the High Priest goes into once a year - and says Christ had already entered into the holies as the High Priest AND obtained "eternal redemption". 

If the Scripture says Jesus entered the holies ONCE and having done so obtained "eternal redemption" ( unlike the earthly High Priest who's ritual only was valid for external value and only for that current year ) then the SDA IJ has Jesus going into the holies, leaving and then coming back again something like 1844 years later and doing it again. 

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, hch said:

Gustave,

Let's look at the evidence.

 

Shortly after Jesus ascended to Heaven, John saw Jesus in Heaven in the first compartment where the candlesticks were.

When the Judgment of the dead began, John saw Jesus move into the holies of holy where the ark resides. The Sanctuary service in the earthly Temple shows that the Atonement is made before the ARK of the Covenant. Jesus the Priest, was ministering before the ark in Heaven when the judgment of the dead commenced. When did the Judgment of the dead begin?

It has been shown in earlier posts that the cleansing of the Sanctuary was to take place at the end of 2300 years, in 1844. At that time there was no sanctuary on earth to be cleansed, Thus the cleansing of the Sanctuary at the time that the dead are judged refers to the Sanctuary in Heaven as John reported. 

The Judgment begins at the house of God. The Judgment of the dead began in Heaven when Christ moved from the compartment where the Candlesticks were to the compartment where the ark was. Daniel prophecy reveals that the Judgment would begin in 1844. Revelation 14 states that it began. As you noted Jesus entered the holy of holies once. When He leaves it, He will not go back to make atonement for any one else (the judgment process will be finished.)

 

When the Jewish church failed to accept Christ as the Messiah, God allowed the Christian Church to fulfill His purpose. The Christian Church morphed into the Roman Church. When the Roman Church failed to fulfill God's commission, God replaced it (as He had replaced the Jewish Church) with the churches that formed during the Reformation. Now that the Reformed churches have returned to the errors that caused the schism during the Reformation, Christ is preparing to return to dispense judgment upon all the Churches. 
Review the messages to the 7 Churches. 5 of the 7 churches had left their first love. BUT EVEN IN THOSE CHURCHES CHRIST FOUND FAITHFUL PEOPLE. The messages of warning encouraged the remnant of those Churches to remain faithful even though their beloved churches were not as God would have them. And before Christ Comes the message goes forth to God's sincere people regarding their relationship to their churches that have become Babylon:

The world is not ignorant regarding the fornication that has plagued the Roman Church on the eve of Christ's Advent. Protestant America has made this fornication a form of marriage. The command is unmistakable: Babylon is fornicating. Come out of her My people. Those churches that accept Babylon's fornication are a part of Babylon. God's people are commanded to come out of them that they receive not of her plagues. That is self explanatory. 

Revelation 11, 18-19 doesn't say anything about Jesus "moving into the holies" - only that it was finally "the time of the dead" that they should be judged.

 

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail".

This is all about executing judgment that had already been determined. The servants of God ( prophets and the saints are being rewarded ) and the lost is angry because God wrath had come, it was for them "the time of the dead". 

There is nothing about the IJ here. 

 

[LifeHiscost]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

2 Corinthians 3:7-8 "Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? (NIV)

I say "back in the day", but my husband was given more than one extraordinary miracle.  He could not deny the existence of a kind and loving supernatural Being.  Then he had to begin to learn what that Being wants of us.  Then he had to give "the permission". 

Just FYI,  I love the program "Creation in the 21st Century" on the TBN channel.   The scientist special guests have brought me much closer to belief in an actual six day creation week.

Thank you for your testimony, 8dp. Another sign of the closeness of Jesus' return is the preponderance of secular news bringing up biblical subjects. While we know from the Word, no man knows the day nor the hour, we're also told when Jesus' coming is near.

 

33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!...Matthew 24

 

 

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.Daniel 12

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be...Revelation 22

I've never known a period of time in my 84 years when knowledge has so rapidly expanded, as well as having the technology available to preach the Gospel to all the world

34 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, this generation [the people living when these signs and events begin] will not pass away until all these things take place. Matt 24

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus...Revelation 22

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, Gustave said:

Do you believe that the SDA Investigative Judgement ( as in 1844 ) was foretold by the Old Testament?

I don't - no. 

[8thdaypriest]

I don't believe the prophecies point to 1844, Oct. 22nd.  No. 

I do believe the prophecies point to a PRE-advent judgment scene in Heaven, in fulfillment of the ancient Day of Atonement TYPE.    At that POINT (on that DAY) all those whose names appear in the Book of Life will officially, legally inherit the Kingdom, under Christ Jesus.  Satan will officially be sentenced to loss of dominion of the earth, and banishment to the uninhabited place.  

Jesus will immediately return to earth to execute sentence (on the unredeemed wicked), and to reward (with eternal life) those who are His.  He will also - on this SAME DAY - banish Satan to the uninhabited place. 

Christ died on Passover, in fulfillment of the Passover prophecy.  He fulfilled that prophecy within ONE 24 hour DAY - down to the hour.

Christ rose on the Feast of First Fruits.  He fulfilled that prophetic prophecy/TYPE within ONE 24 hour DAY.

Christ poured out His Spirit upon His waiting disciples on Pentecost - in fulfillment of that Feast prophecy/TYPE.  He fulfilled that prophecy within ONE 24 hour DAY.

It makes no sense (to me) that the Fall Feast prophecy TYPES would be fulfilled in a different way - stretched out over 175 years+.  

It was called The DAY of Atonement, for a reason.  It took place on ONE DAY.  The High Priest entered the Most Holy Place,  and came out, and banished the scapegoat to the uninhabited place, and blessed the waiting people of Israel  - ALL during ONE 24 hour DAY.  

[8thdaypriest]

So now we're back to debating 1844.  What prophecies do you believe point to October 22nd, 1844? 

Let's go over those prophecies. 

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

"The Holy Ghost signifying this, that the way into the holies was not yet made manifest"

The text then makes clear that it is talking about the place that the High Priest goes into once a year - and says Christ had already entered into the holies as the High Priest AND obtained "eternal redemption". 

If the Scripture says Jesus entered the holies ONCE and having done so obtained "eternal redemption" ( unlike the earthly High Priest who's ritual only was valid for external value and only for that current year ) then the SDA IJ has Jesus going into the holies, leaving and then coming back again something like 1844 years later and doing it again. 

Hebrews 9:8 "the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing." (NKJ)

The word translated as "standing" does not have to mean literally erect - as in not yet destroyed.  It can mean "had standing" - as the way to obtain justification or cleanness before God.  Once Jesus was understood to be the TRUE High Priest, and Heaven was understood to be the TRUE Tabernacle, then the earthly Temple was understood to be only a copy.  The "way" to God was understood as Christ and His ministry in Heaven.  At that point, the Jerusalem Temple lost its "standing" - in the eyes of believers (most of them).   Paul remained away from the Temple for some 14 years.  He returned only in an effort to win Jews to Christ. 

Did Christ enter the Most Holy Place when He ascended?   I believe He did.  

Hebrews 9:12 "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Does that mean He has already fulfilled all of the Day of Atonement prophecy/TYPES?  No.  For that to be true, Satan would already be banished to the uninhabited place, and would not still have dominion over this earth.  He did fulfill the offering of "the Lord's goat".  He WAS "the Lord's goat".  He was also the ram, offered by the High Priest for himself and his family (the priests).  He was every sacrifice - but He died only once.  In that sense, He did fulfill that part of the Day of Atonement TYPES/prophecy. 

Hebrews 10:19-20  "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh"  (NKJ)

"The Holiest" could refer to the Temple as a whole, the part inside the Tent (later building).  That Temple was regarded as holier than the surrounding courtyard. 

The text does not say "the veil" was the one that separated the first apartment, from the second (Most Holy Place).   In fact, "the veil" that was "torn" was the entrance veil, 60 feet tall and 3 inches thick, torn by the hand of God at the moment Christ died.   "Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" (Mar 15:38 NKJ).  The Centurion who commanded the crucifixion saw this happen, and realized that Christ WAS "the Son of God".  The tearing of a man's robe, was customary upon the death of a son - especially a firstborn son.  If God Himself tore His robe - what would it look like?   If only the veil separating the two apartments was torn,  only 3 or 4 priests would have seen it.  And the priests would have secretly replaced that veil, pronto. 

Also, in the Jerusalem Temple of that day, there were TWO overlapping veils hanging between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place,  with a passage 3 feet wide between them, by which the High Priest could pass with the censor of coals, on the Day of Atonement.  Tearing that veil would require tearing TWO veils - not one.  

Christ ascended to Heaven (the true Tabernacle).   Heaven is NOT divided into two rooms - a large one and a smaller one.    So debates about "which room" He entered, don't matter - in my opinion.  Christ was seated at the right hand of God.  There IS no holier place. 

My understanding of the two apartments - the first apartment and the second (more holy) apartment,  is that the separate areas denoted/symbolized different/sequential time periods, both of which would take place in Heaven (the True Tabernacle).  The first apartment activities/ministry would cover more time, and the smaller second apartment ministry would occupy less time (only ONE DAY). 

 

[hch]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

Revelation 11, 18-19 doesn't say anything about Jesus "moving into the holies" - only that it was finally "the time of the dead" that they should be judged.

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail".

This is all about executing judgment that had already been determined. The servants of God ( prophets and the saints are being rewarded ) and the lost is angry because God wrath had come, it was for them "the time of the dead". 

There is nothing about the IJ here. 

 

Gustave,

Did you forget?

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" For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" (John 5:22)

 

16 hours ago, hch said:

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 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Revelation 11:18-19) 

When the Judgment of the dead began in the holy of holies in 1844 where the ark of the Covenant abides, Christ was there. 
First comes the Judgment of determination of rewards, before the dispensing of rewards phase of the Judgment.

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And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.(Revelation 22:12)

 

The evidence is there, but the honest evaluation process of the seeker of truth that I noted in your earlier postings seems to have changed to a more defensive posture.

By faith we believe the Scriptures 

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 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)

If we reach the point in our studies that we think that we have arrived and search for evidence to establish what we believe, we are in danger of misinterpreting Scriptures to support our belief. Making Scripture sustain our opinions is a dangerous method of Bible study.

[Gustave]

5 minutes ago, hch said:

Gustave,

Did you forget?

 

When the Judgment of the dead began in the holy of holies in 1844 where the ark of the Covenant abides, Christ was there. 
First comes the Judgment of determination of rewards, before the dispensing of rewards phase of the Judgment.

The evidence is there, but the honest evaluation process of the seeker of truth that I noted in your earlier postings seems to have changed to a more defensive posture.

By faith we believe the Scriptures 

If we reach the point in our studies that we think that we have arrived and search for evidence to establish what we believe, we are in danger of misinterpreting Scriptures to support our belief. Making Scripture sustain our opinions is a dangerous method of Bible study.

I didn't forget ( & have not overlooked ) that Scripture says after death comes judgement. 

Hebrews 9,27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:"

This lines up with what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man, who each died & found themselves in different places between the death & resurrection of the body.

This lines up with what Jesus said to the Thief on the cross & with the account of Jesus ministering to the "spirits in prison" after His death on the cross.

This lines up with the "spirits of just men made perfect" who are said to be participating in a festive gathering in heaven with the Trinity and angels - a festive gathering that believers are said to be coming before - when they worship Christ here on earth. 

This lines up with what Saint Paul said about how much he'd rather depart from his body and be with Christ contrasted with staying alive and remaining in his body. 

This lines up with what Stephen saw as he entered into death when he was stoned.

This lines up with what John saw in Revelation 20, 4-6.

These things ( and there are others ) indicate a "particular judgement" of the individual, after death, exactly as Hebrews 9,27 says.  I think you poured the definition of the "General Judgement" into the Particular Judgement and due to your belief in the IJ have extended out the timing of the Particular Judgement so that it takes the place of the General Judgement. Of course because of this timing problem you can't St. Paul's spirit going to be with Christ before Paul has gone through the Investigative judgement - therefore you claim there isn't a spirit of man that goes on after death or that the soul sleeps and is in a unconscious state until the person wakes up at the General Judgement when they are resurrected and receive their Particular Judgement. Did I get that right? 

I have honestly evaluated what you've said - can you say that you've considered what I've shown you the Bible says? 

 

 

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Hebrews 9:8 "the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing." (NKJ)

The word translated as "standing" does not have to mean literally erect - as in not yet destroyed.  It can mean "had standing" - as the way to obtain justification or cleanness before God.  Once Jesus was understood to be the TRUE High Priest, and Heaven was understood to be the TRUE Tabernacle, then the earthly Temple was understood to be only a copy.  The "way" to God was understood as Christ and His ministry in Heaven.  At that point, the Jerusalem Temple lost its "standing" - in the eyes of believers (most of them).   Paul remained away from the Temple for some 14 years.  He returned only in an effort to win Jews to Christ. 

Did Christ enter the Most Holy Place when He ascended?   I believe He did.  

Hebrews 9:12 "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Does that mean He has already fulfilled all of the Day of Atonement prophecy/TYPES?  No.  For that to be true, Satan would already be banished to the uninhabited place, and would not still have dominion over this earth.  He did fulfill the offering of "the Lord's goat".  He WAS "the Lord's goat".  He was also the ram, offered by the High Priest for himself and his family (the priests).  He was every sacrifice - but He died only once.  In that sense, He did fulfill that part of the Day of Atonement TYPES/prophecy. 

Hebrews 10:19-20  "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh"  (NKJ)

"The Holiest" could refer to the Temple as a whole, the part inside the Tent (later building).  That Temple was regarded as holier than the surrounding courtyard. 

The text does not say "the veil" was the one that separated the first apartment, from the second (Most Holy Place).   In fact, "the veil" that was "torn" was the entrance veil, 60 feet tall and 3 inches thick, torn by the hand of God at the moment Christ died.   "Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" (Mar 15:38 NKJ).  The Centurion who commanded the crucifixion saw this happen, and realized that Christ WAS "the Son of God".  The tearing of a man's robe, was customary upon the death of a son - especially a firstborn son.  If God Himself tore His robe - what would it look like?   If only the veil separating the two apartments was torn,  only 3 or 4 priests would have seen it.  And the priests would have secretly replaced that veil, pronto. 

Also, in the Jerusalem Temple of that day, there were TWO overlapping veils hanging between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place,  with a passage 3 feet wide between them, by which the High Priest could pass with the censor of coals, on the Day of Atonement.  Tearing that veil would require tearing TWO veils - not one.  

Christ ascended to Heaven (the true Tabernacle).   Heaven is NOT divided into two rooms - a large one and a smaller one.    So debates about "which room" He entered, don't matter - in my opinion.  Christ was seated at the right hand of God.  There IS no holier place. 

My understanding of the two apartments - the first apartment and the second (more holy) apartment,  is that the separate areas denoted/symbolized different/sequential time periods, both of which would take place in Heaven (the True Tabernacle).  The first apartment activities/ministry would cover more time, and the smaller second apartment ministry would occupy less time (only ONE DAY). 

 

I'm glad you agree that Jesus entered the holies when He ascended - He certainly did. I submit that the point Hebrews 9, 12 was making was that Christ entered the holies ONE TIME and obtained eternal redemption. In other words He was a better High Priest than those who bore that office prior to Him in that those other Priests had to keep coming back year after year and ONLY mitigated sin in contrast to Christ - who obliterated it.

Did Christ, who Scripture says was greater than the temple, have to fulfil EVERY type? This is one of those things in my view akin to Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath. 

Where do you read or understand that the veil of the temple that was torn was the entrance veil?

Its reasonable to believe that the tearing of the veil demonstrated that the "Old Covenant" System with it's Priesthood had ended. Hebrews 7, 27.

 

[Gustave]

50 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I have also challenged  8th day on this point, I cannot for the life of me remember exactly where, but it was recent. One question that arises here is Since Jesus is called "a better Sacrifice," then it would follow that since that's what He is, (amongst other things) why on earth would He have to mimic or parrot ALL of the OT elements of the sacrifice; since JESUS is THE BETTER   SACRIFICE  of the two?

I see that part of it as you do. 

Jesus is God therefore where He is the Father is & Holy Spirit are also.

In my reading of historic SDA belief it became obvious that they ( or better said their theology ) required a mutable pseudo-Christ who attempted to be the actual Christ by not sinning & loosing His salvation. Making Christ accountable or under each temple rubric would serve that purpose. 

We know from the Synodal Letter of Nicaea that Arius and his adherents were;

"saying that he is from things that are not, and that before he was begotten he was not, and that there was a time when he was not, AND that the Son of God is by his free will capable of vice and virtue;"

This is why the Creed says that those who say "that he is a creature, OR subject to change or conversion" 

are under anathema.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

 

 

[hch]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

I didn't forget ( & have not overlooked ) that Scripture says after death comes judgement. 

Hebrews 9,27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:"

This lines up with what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man, who each died & found themselves in different places between the death & resurrection of the body.

What Jesus said regarding Lazarus and the rich man was a parable that included several parts as evidence from the context. In  Luke 15: 3 Jesus began His parable "And he spake this parable unto them, saying," and the parable began "What man of you, having an hundred sheep," (v.4) the point being " joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth," (v.7) The parable continues with the woman with 10 pieces of silver who rejoiced when she found the one that had been lost. The parable continues to the lost son and rejoicing when he is found (v. 32). The parable continues in chapter 16 to tell of the unfaithful steward who chose to be lost for worldly gain. " the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." (16:14) And Jesus rebuked the Pharisees "He said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." (16:15). God knowing the hearts is a JUDGMENT WARNING. Then this parable moves to Lazarus and the beggar. 

The overall parable tells of the lost 1) sheep, 2) coin, 3) son, 4) steward, and 5) rich man. Someone is looking for the lost. The son came to his senses, but the steward and the rich man did not. The steward chose the world over heaven. And the rich man awoke too late (like the 5 foolish virgins in another parable). The interaction between the rich man Lazarus, and Abraham is part of the parable to teach that when the punishment is being dispensed, it is too late to change. That encounter in the parable does not teach life after death.

Using the name of the beggar as Lazarus in this multi-part parable foreshadowed that Jesus would resurrect a man by that name "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (16:31). And it was true. When Lazarus was raised from the dead, "But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus" (John 12:10-11). When Lazarus was resurrected, there is never a testimony to any excursion to heaven or hell. The testimony of the resurrected Lazarus' sister is that he had been in his grave 4 days. That is the ONLY account of where Lazarus was after he died.

Hebrews 9,27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:" This text Does Not contradict that dead men rest in their graves until after their death the Investigative Judgment begins. When the books are opened, those dead men do not have to be bodily present to be judged according to the things recorded in the books.

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

This lines up with what Jesus said to the Thief on the cross & with the account of Jesus ministering to the "spirits in prison" after His death on the cross. 

Unfortunately, This is another example of human reasoning.

Jesus died on Friday. The thief did not die on Friday as evidenced that they broke his legs as the Sabbath drew on. The living thief could not be with Jesus in Heaven TODAY (on that Friday) since he had not yet died. And Jesus told Mary on SUNDAY that He had not yet ascended to Heaven. So Jesus did not go to Heaven on Friday (today) either.  For Jesus to say today that the thief would be in Heaven is not the same thing as Jesus saying that they would be together in heaven today (on that Friday). punctuation corrects that text. On that day, Jesus promised the thief that he would be resurrected to be among those who are to be in Heaven.

Quote

 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water (1 Peter 3:18-20)

Jesus did suffer on Calvary ONCE. " being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" The reference to quickened by the Spirit "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2 Timothy 4:1) I.e., the living [quick] and the dead. The Holy Spirit quickened Jesus at His BIRTH not after His death. "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35) The Holy Spirit did not quicken Jesus after His death.  "I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father" (John 10:18).

1 Peter 3:18-20 is obviously saying that Jesus died once, then it gives a caveat to explain that his death was only possible after the Spirit had quickened him (Jesus could not have died before He had been born of Mary when He was made a little lower than the angels). Then Peter explains that by the Holy spirit Jesus " went and preached unto the spirits in prison" It is a traditional assumption to say that the "spirits" are people. And the word PREACHED is a translational opinion. Preached means to proclaim after the manner of a herald. Between the time of Jesus' birth and death, He did not preach unto spirits, He proclaimed the truth about the spirits. Examples of what Jesus proclaimed about the spirits: 1) He saw Satan fall from Heaven, 2) sister was bound by Satan 3) spirits leaves his house and finds it cleaned and garnished brings 7 back with him 4)He has the power to cast spirits out, etc. Thus Peter is talking about the devils that are in the prison of their own making. Then Peter continues to give the example of the flood where the Spirit of God gave Noah a message to the world that they rejected...

Rather than making this reply long by dealing with every point you raised, it is enough to say that the Bible does not disagree with itself. Rightly understood, there is perfect harmony within its pages. BUT when a text out of context is added to other texts out of context, doctrines of devils can be the unintended consequences. 

[hch]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I think its wrong for a forum member to accuse anyone here of "dishonesty."  Its not right, and how can such an accuser even have a serious Bible study/discussion with that noose around the neck? You have just as much right here to voice your opinion as ANYONE else. Dont let that ruin your night my friend! ")

Laugh, I thought I'd cry. I did cry "Lord don't let anyone read all of the comments that ... said implicating me."

[Gregory Matthews]

HCH, for one to say that you wrong is not to say that you are dishonest.   For one to say that you have made a false statement is not to say that you have made a dishonest statement.

I have often stated that you have made statements that were in error (false, wrong,), but I have never stated, and I do not state now, that you have  ever been dishonest.