The Investigative Judgment

[8thdaypriest]

17 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

alright, then I will play "devil's advocate for a bit here. Where does The Bible say that Jesus, in this verse, was speaking only of the "second death?"

In what sense then would those be believed in Jesus, "never die"?   That was 2000 years ago!   Of course they physically died.  But that is just "sleep" to God, as it was to Christ. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/15/2018 at 10:59 AM, The Wanderer said:

Is this our job to figure such things out and advise God on how He must have to do it?

No.  It's not "our job" to advise God on how He must do it.  But it is our job to study His word and (with the help of His Spirit) come to understand those things that are revealed to us. 

I believe the resurrection of "the rest" at the 8th millennium is revealed.  I do not believe it is revealed that "the rest" will constitute all of the wicked from this 6000 year history of sin. 

Don't you believe in a certain scenario concerning the resurrection and judgment and execution of "the wicked"?   How did you come by that belief?  Did you "figure it out"?  Do you feel we should not even deal with that - rather just leave it to God?  Just asking. 

It is my belief that the resurrect of "the rest of the dead" is NOT a resurrection of "the wicked" to hear judgment pronounced against them, and to then be executed.  That resurrection of the wicked from this 6000 years, to hear judgment pronounced and then suffer physical execution will take place at Christ's glorious return.   That is my belief, based upon my study of the Scriptures, with much prayer. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/15/2018 at 1:20 PM, hch said:

Limits?

My favorite author wrote something to the effect that Adventist lay people are not doing 1/50th of what they could be doing to finish the work.

Who (or what) is setting the limits?  God? Satan? US? Our short sighted vision?

What should we fear most in the Investigative Judgment...our sins of commission or omission? 

Food for thought :

 https://www.amazon.com/Highest-Loyalty-Truth-Larceny-Dawning-ebook/dp/B07C7DRPVS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1524479061&sr=8-3&keywords=the+highest+loyalty

So hch, what should be done with those unreached?   Even if those who should have reach them, are punished for their sins, what should God do with the unreached?

[8thdaypriest]

14 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

If its just ",sleep" then why do we need resurrection?  we will just automatically ",wake up" when the prophetic clock says its time

I think I said, "to God".  Physical death "is sleep" TO God, because HE can "wake" them.  Resurrection is something ONLY God can do.  That's why, "to HIM" - physical death is LIKE "sleep" is TO us. 

[hch]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

WHEN was "the blood" ever applied TO the sinner - in the ancient Tabernacle rituals?  

Rachel,

You asked a great question. Leviticus 14:14 that you mentioned is the only one I know of.

Quote

Le 14:14  And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:

That does not appear to be the procedure for every offering that is offered. as you noted:

When the sinner confessed his sins on the head of the sacrifice, the sins were transferred to the sacrifice.

The sacrifice's blood was applied to the horns of the altar (of burnt offering) or sprinkled on the sides of the altar.

and the blood was pourer under the alter as the record of confessed sins

This was done on a daily basis.

On the yearly Day of Atonement, the record of the sins were purged from the altar and the blood was carried into the Most Holy place.

 

[hch]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I agree with the lines in bold.  Jesus IS "pleading in our behalf".  He is NOT pleading with His Father.  He is pleading WITH us.   We are the ones who need to change.  God does not change. 

And yes - we should confess our sins and receive forgiveness BEFORE Jesus ENTERS the Most Holy Place for the final Day of Atonement.  Once the High Priest ENTERED the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement - no more sins could be forgiven.   The LORD would "cut off" every one who did not prepare for that DAY, and maintain a humble attitude ON that DAY. 

What is it, hch, that you want to discuss?  Time periods? 

Rachel,

Time periods have there place (rightly understood).

The Sanctuary service was based on a religious calendar.

Everything was set forth on a daily or yearly cycle.

JoMoe mentioned that 1844 is not important.

And others might not understand the importance of time in the Investigative Judgment proces.

 

[hch]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So hch, what should be done with those unreached?   Even if those who should have reach them, are punished for their sins, what should God do with the unreached?

God is just. He loves judgment 

Quote

Ps 33:5  He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Ps 37:28  For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

Your Question reminds me of a conversation between Jesus and Peter.

Quote

19  This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
20 ¶  Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:19-22).

 

[hch]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I guess I am not hch however; I feel that I have a reply worth mentioning. I do not see anywhere in scripture where we need to worry about how God's gonna do it in certain cases. I have attended the bedside of many people as they died, and that were classed as "unreached," yet I feel many of those were better "reached" than I have ever been. One things for sure, we cannot sit on our doctrinal thrones and prescribe HOW god must do it. Any "prophecy" which says otherwise is missing that point.

 

Quote

14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:14-16)

 

[hch]

I read this this morning.

Quote

There are many precious truths contained in the Word of God, but it is “present truth” that the flock needs now. I have seen the danger of the messengers running off from the important points of present truth, to dwell upon subjects that are not calculated to unite the flock and sanctify the soul. Satan will here take every possible advantage to injure the cause.

But such subjects as the sanctuary, in connection with the 2300 days, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, are perfectly calculated to explain the past Advent movement and show what our present position is, establish the faith of the doubting, and give certainty to the glorious future. These, I have frequently seen, were the principal subjects on which the messengers should dwell. EW 63.1-2

 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, hch said:

14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:14-16)

I used to think that God would judge every person on their response to His Spirit, (resist or obey.) because the Spirit comes to everyone.  

I have come to understand Romans 2:14-18 differently.  The Gentiles (who do not know "the law") "do by nature" things contained in the law, because God created men with that nature.  Men actually get so addicted to sin, that they go against their own nature.  But these people are "a law unto themselves".  This natural law, is different from actually knowing their is a God, and He has certain laws - like the Sabbath, which is a sign of our submission to HIM as our God.  Natural law does not teach us that the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the LORD our God. 

Speaking of the Gentiles, Paul said:  "at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12 NKJ)

"No hope" is NO HOPE.   "Without God" means "without God".   And "without Christ" means without Christ, without His covering righteousness.  THAT is the condition of an unsaved person. 

Just because pagans who had never heard of Yahweh or His Son, did "by nature" the things that God had wired into them as created human beings, did NOT render them saved.  They ARE however saveable.  Which is why I believe that Christ will resurrect these people,  teach them about His Father, and govern them with His priesthood of the redeemed.  They will then have to choose - to serve Christ as LORD and King, or resist and rebel with the Army of Gog. 

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, hch said:

But such subjects as the sanctuary, in connection with the 2300 days, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, are perfectly calculated to explain the past Advent movement and show what our present position is, establish the faith of the doubting, and give certainty to the glorious future. These, I have frequently seen, were the principal subjects on which the messengers should dwell. EW 63.1-2

Mrs White said the "2300 days" in connection with the sanctuary, is one of "the principal subjects on which the messengers" and presumably WE "should dwell".   Do you know what "messengers" she is referring to?   Was she writing about speakers or evangelists for one of the camp-meetings?   Just wondered. 

hch, you have posted about different time periods with great confidence, as if there could not possibly be a different interpretation of those passages.  Allow me to address one of the time periods mentioned in "The Great Controversy" - the 1260 days (time, times, and a part) - (42 months).  

In Great Controversy Mrs White writes concerning the 1260 days,  that "this period of Papal persecution ended in 1798", when the General Napoleon defeated the Papal army and took the Pope prisoner.   THIS,  was "the deadly wound" according to Great Controversy. 

The 1260 days are mentioned in Revelation 13:5 (as 42 months),  in Revelation 12:6 (as 42 months), in Revelation 11:2 (as 42 months), in Revelation 11:2-3 (as 1260 days) and in Daniel 7:25 (as "a time, and times, and half a time").  

I will quote Revelation 13:3-7.   "And I saw one of his heads [on the terrible Beast] as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."

QUESTION:  Do the 42 months come before the moral wound is healed - or AFTER?   Just read the text.  They come AFTER - not before.  

If Napoleon caused the "deadly wound" in 1798, then how could the 42 months END in 1798?   The 42 months don't even start until that wound is healed. 

In Revelation 11, the "two witnesses" testify for 42 months, then are killed, then are resurrected after 3.5 days, just as the 7th [last] trump sounds, when "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev 11:15).   That puts the 42 months right down at the END.  The 42 months end just short of the glorious return. 

In Daniel 7, the "Little Horn" [on the terrible Beast] makes war on the saints for "a time and times and half a time" leading right up to the judgment in Heaven when dominion is given to Christ and the saints take possession of the kingdom.  The 1260 days is the LAST period of persecution for the saints.  It cannot be the period that ENDED in 1798.  

Daniel 7:21-22  "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 "until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom." (NKJ)

The horn makes war on the saints for "time, times, and a part".   The horn makes war on the saints UNTIL the judgment sits.  The horn makes war on the saints until the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom.  

The saints DID NOT "possess the kingdom" back in 1844. 

That means the judgment has NOT YET been seated. 

[hch]

10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I used to think that God would judge every person on their response to His Spirit, (resist or obey.) because the Spirit comes to everyone...

Just because pagans who had never heard of Yahweh or His Son, did "by nature" the things that God had wired into them as created human beings, did NOT render them saved.  They ARE however saveable.  Which is why I believe that Christ will resurrect these people,  teach them about His Father, and govern them with His priesthood of the redeemed.  They will then have to choose - to serve Christ as LORD and King, or resist and rebel with the Army of Gog. 

Rachel,

The Sanctuary service teaches us that when Christ leaves the Temple in Heaven, the declaration has been made: IT IS FINISHE, let the filthy be f=filthy still and the righteous be righteous still: thus there is no longer a Mediator to intercede or make atonement for sin. If anyone were to sin after Christ leaves the Temple, that individual is lost. So for your example to be workable Christ would have to guarantee those who never knew Him salvation before they are taught of Him. If there is no more sacrifice, no more intercession in the Temple how would the idea that you proposed work?

[hch]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Mrs White said the "2300 days" in connection with the sanctuary, is one of "the principal subjects on which the messengers" and presumably WE "should dwell".   Do you know what "messengers" she is referring to?   Was she writing about speakers or evangelists for one of the camp-meetings?   Just wondered. 

hch, you have posted about different time periods with great confidence, as if there could not possibly be a different interpretation of those passages.  Allow me to address one of the time periods mentioned in "The Great Controversy" - the 1260 days (time, times, and a part) - (42 months).  

In Great Controversy Mrs White writes concerning the 1260 days,  that "this period of Papal persecution ended in 1798", when the General Napoleon defeated the Papal army and took the Pope prisoner.   THIS,  was "the deadly wound" according to Great Controversy. 

The 1260 days are mentioned in Revelation 13:5 (as 42 months),  in Revelation 12:6 (as 42 months), in Revelation 11:2 (as 42 months), in Revelation 11:2-3 (as 1260 days) and in Daniel 7:25 (as "a time, and times, and half a time").  

I will quote Revelation 13:3-7.   "And I saw one of his heads [on the terrible Beast] as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."

QUESTION:  Do the 42 months come before the moral wound is healed - or AFTER?   Just read the text.  They come AFTER - not before.  

If Napoleon caused the "deadly wound" in 1798, then how could the 42 months END in 1798?   The 42 months don't even start until that wound is healed. 

In Revelation 11, the "two witnesses" testify for 42 months, then are killed, then are resurrected after 3.5 days, just as the 7th [last] trump sounds, when "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev 11:15).   That puts the 42 months right down at the END.  The 42 months end just short of the glorious return. 

In Daniel 7, the "Little Horn" [on the terrible Beast] makes war on the saints for "a time and times and half a time" leading right up to the judgment in Heaven when dominion is given to Christ and the saints take possession of the kingdom.  The 1260 days is the LAST period of persecution for the saints.  It cannot be the period that ENDED in 1798.  

Daniel 7:21-22  "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 "until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom." (NKJ)

The horn makes war on the saints for "time, times, and a part".   The horn makes war on the saints UNTIL the judgment sits.  The horn makes war on the saints until the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom.  

The saints DID NOT "possess the kingdom" back in 1844. 

That means the judgment has NOT YET been seated. 

 

Rachel,

I will quote Ellen to show what Bible students in the 1800's had learned about this subject:

Quote

“Power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.” And, says the prophet [John in the book of Revelation], “I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death.” And again, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.” The forty and two months are the same as the “time and times and the dividing of time,” three years and a half, or 1260 days, of Daniel 7,—the time during which the papal power was to oppress God’s people. This period… began with the establishment of the papacy, A. D. 538, and terminated in 1798. At that time, when the papacy was abolished and the pope made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound, and the prediction was fulfilled, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity.” ( Great Controversy 88 439.2)

Thus it is clear that Ellen accepted a partial fulfillment of the 1260 years from 538-1798 as evidenced by this statement and the fact that she also placed this time (1260 days) in the future (after the deadly wound was healed).

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In the last days...will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator’s prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] ( 19MR 282.1 )

 

In this statement above, Ellen White wrote out by hand the entire passage Revelation 13:4-18. Notice that her statement included verse 5 " And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Which is to say that after she placed this timeframe in the past from 538-1798 she wrote that it was to be fulfilled again in the future after the deadly wound had been healed. Is that a fluke or a mistake? No. I verified it with the White estates.

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The reference you asked about is correct. When you see an item like this in the Manuscript Releases, enclosed in square brackets, it means that in Ellen White’s material, she quoted the named passage, but for economy of space, we will not quote it here, but merely give the reference so that the reader can look it up and read it, if desired. So it does indeed refer to these verses in Revelation 13, and this is the prophecy that she mentioned just before the reference. …I confirmed it by going to the manuscript, where the verses were written out. ( William Fagal, Associate Director, Ellen G. White Estate, 12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, MD 20904-6600 U.S.A. )

Ellen did placed the fulfillment of Revelation 13 in the future a second time:

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And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Revelation 13:4-10. This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place. ( 7BC 979.10 )

 

Ellen's placing the 42 months in the past and the future is completely consistent with her other statements. She binds Daniel and Revelation as though they are one book and she states that  their prophecies relate primarily to the endtime and some things in them that have been fulfilled will be fulfilled again.

Quote

 

As we near the close of this world’s history, the prophecies recorded by Daniel demand our special attention, as they relate to the very time in which we are living. With them should be linked the teachings of the last book of the New Testament Scriptures. Satan has led many to believe that the prophetic portions of the writings of Daniel and of John the revelator cannot be understood. But the promise is plain that special blessing will accompany the study of these prophecies. “The wise shall understand” [Daniel 12:10], was spoken of the visions of Daniel that were to be unsealed in the latter days; and of the revelation that Christ gave to His servant John for the guidance of God’s people all through the centuries, the promise is, “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein.” Revelation 1:3. ( PK 547.2 ).

The Lord Himself revealed to His servant John the mysteries of the book of Revelation, and He designs that they shall be open to the study of all. In this book are depicted scenes that are now in the past, and some of eternal interest that are taking place around us; other of its prophecies will not receive their complete fulfillment until the close of time, when the last great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven will take place. ( RH, August 31, 1897 par. 5 )

 

Since the 42 months are the same time as recorded in Daniel 7, it follows that its prophecies (the 1260 years of Daniel 7 and the 42 months of Revelationt are the same timeframe) will have a literal fulfillment in literal time in the endtime.

It is in my book. They were fulfilled from 9/11/01 to 4/2/2005. I show them on the  Gregorian calendar and the Hebrew calendar and the significance of both calendars to the prophecy.

But Laodiceans have need of nothing so it is a waste of time trying to get them to look. They manifest an attitude that they would rather not know until they are ready. That is so much like the  folks in Lot's day and Noah's day. Those poor souls were allowed to believe what they wanted to believe until their doom was sealed. Too Late! Too Late!

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, hch said:

Rachel,

The Sanctuary service teaches us that when Christ leaves the Temple in Heaven, the declaration has been made: IT IS FINISHE, let the filthy be f=filthy still and the righteous be righteous still: thus there is no longer a Mediator to intercede or make atonement for sin. If anyone were to sin after Christ leaves the Temple, that individual is lost. So for your example to be workable Christ would have to guarantee those who never knew Him salvation before they are taught of Him. If there is no more sacrifice, no more intercession in the Temple how would the idea that you proposed work?

The Sanctuary ceremonies teach us that when the High Priest ENTERS the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement,  no further atonement (reconciliation) can be received for individual Israelites.  Those who were warned, and knew what they must do,  are then judged on that DAY.  

The sins of ignorance committed by Gentiles (non-Israelites) are still covered, until such time as they become "known".   At that point, repentance and a sin offering would then - at that point - be required. 

Christ's death covers all sins of ignorance.  He said it himself.  "If you were blind, you would have no sin" (John 9:41).  NOTE:  His death does not cover sins resulting from willful ignorance.

The sins of ignorant pagans are "covered" - not yet blotted out.  Doesn't mean they can be given eternal life, without believing in Christ, seeking forgiveness in His name, and repenting of those sins.  Would you really want to live next door to a head-hunter in the kingdom, who never heard of Jesus? 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, hch said:

Since the 42 months are the same time as recorded in Daniel 7, it follows that its prophecies (the 1260 years of Daniel 7 and the 42 months of Revelationt are the same timeframe) will have a literal fulfillment in literal time in the endtime.

It is in my book. They were fulfilled from 9/11/01 to 4/2/2005. I show them on the  Gregorian calendar and the Hebrew calendar and the significance of both calendars to the prophecy.

But Laodiceans have need of nothing so it is a waste of time trying to get them to look. They manifest an attitude that they would rather not know until they are ready. That is so much like the  folks in Lot's day and Noah's day. Those poor souls were allowed to believe what they wanted to believe until their doom was sealed. Too Late! Too Late!

You believe the 1260 days were fulfilled in "prophetic time" (1 day = 1 year) ending in 1798, but were fulfilled in literal time from 9/11/01 to 4/2/2005.  Is that right? 

Was the Papacy the Little Horn that ruled over every nation, demanding worship, between 9/11/01 and 4/2/2005?  I don't see that one.

 

[hch]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The Sanctuary ceremonies teach us that when the High Priest ENTERS the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement,  no further atonement (reconciliation) can be received for individual Israelites.  Those who were warned, and knew what they must do,  are then judged on that DAY.  

The sins of ignorance committed by Gentiles (non-Israelites) are still covered, until such time as they become "known".   At that point, repentance and a sin offering would then - at that point - be required. 

Christ's death covers all sins of ignorance.  He said it himself.  "If you were blind, you would have no sin" (John 9:41).  NOTE:  His death does not cover sins resulting from willful ignorance.

The sins of ignorant pagans are "covered" - not yet blotted out.  Doesn't mean they can be given eternal life, without believing in Christ, seeking forgiveness in His name, and repenting of those sins.  Would you really want to live next door to a head-hunter in the kingdom, who never heard of Jesus? 

Rachel,

As I understand it, only the sins of God's people are atoned for when the priest is making atonement in the Holy of Holies.

God's people that do not send their sins ahead to be forgiven are cut off from His people.

Quote

27  Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
28  And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
29  For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
30  And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
31  Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
32  It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath (Leviticus 23:27-32).

 

And those people that do not know Christ are lost already for there is no salvation apart from Christ.

Ellen White sums it up:

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 Jesus is in His holy temple and will now accept our sacrifices, our prayers, and our confessions of faults and sins and will pardon all the transgressions of Israel, that they may be blotted out before He leaves the sanctuary. When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will be sealed with the seal of the living God. But those that are unjust and filthy will be unjust and filthy still; for then there will be no Priest in the sanctuary to offer their sacrifices, their confessions, and their prayers before the Father's throne. Therefore what is done to rescue souls from the coming storm of wrath must be done before Jesus leaves the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.  {EW 48.1} 

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Le 16:33  And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.

Do you have a Scripture or Spirit of Prophecy quote that suggests that atonement is possible after the Priest [Jesus] the sanctuary???

[hch]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You believe the 1260 days were fulfilled in "prophetic time" (1 day = 1 year) ending in 1798, but were fulfilled in literal time from 9/11/01 to 4/2/2005.  Is that right? 

Was the Papacy the Little Horn that ruled over every nation, demanding worship, between 9/11/01 and 4/2/2005?  I don't see that one.

Rachel,

Yes I have the evidence that the 1260 days " were fulfilled in "prophetic time" (1 day = 1 year) ending in 1798, AND were fulfilled in literal time from 9/11/01 to 4/2/2005."

Pope John-Paul II was the one that they wondered after. 

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2  And the beast [papal beast] which I saw was like unto a leopard [Clinton] , and his feet were as the feet of a bear [Bush I], and his mouth as the mouth of a lion [Reagan, the great Orator]: and the dragon [Satan] gave him [John-Paul II] his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3  And I saw one of his heads [John-Paul II] as it were wounded to death [assassination attempt]; and his deadly wound was healed [Reagan healed 1798 papal wound on US behalf when he sent Ambassador to Rome and GWI healed papal wound as head of all the churches when he declared John-Paul II WORLD'S MORAL LEADER, i.e., head of all the churches]: and all the world wondered after the beast [John-Paul II assembled all the religious leaders in Rome from Dali Lama to Muslim leaders ].
4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? [Communism fell at the bidding of John-Paul II without firing a shot]
5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies [John-Paul II issued Dies Domani in which he called God a liar (God never changes) this pope said God's Sabbath had been changed to Sunday ]; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months [John-Paul II died 42 months after 9/11/01 on 4/2/2005 … 9/11/01 is identified in my study of Daniel 7. on 9/11 Sept almost gone: Oct, Nov, Dec, 12 months each in 2002.03, 04, Jan, Feb, Mar (2005)= 42 full months. This is fascinating on how it coundts out on the  Hebrew calendar (it's in my book with all the details, Scriptures, and prophetic significance)].
6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven [John-Paul II issued Dies Domani in which he called God a liar (God never changes) this pope said God's Sabbath had been changed to Sunday ].
7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations [John-Paul II convinced the Anglicans to accept Mary, and the Lutherans to issue Declaration...  ].
8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world [Pending Satan's appearance as John-Paul II...Scripture ad Spirit of Prophecy evidence is in my book ].
9  If any man have an ear, let him hear [Babylon is fallen come out of her My people ].
10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 ¶  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon [Transition of power from papal beast to Presidents Bush II and Obama as Benedict the 7th head completed the number and resigned. Bush II was the Protestant Prince of the counterfeit Covenant who was predicted to be inaugurated on 20 January 2001. He set up an abomination of desolation, and did away with Christ and His sacrifice in the midst of the week. That too is explained in my book with the Scriptures. ].(Revelation 13 enhances with limited commentary).

I only accept Scripture as far as I understand it. I accepted that President Obama was America's last President because that is what I understood Scripture to say.

When President Trump came into office, I could not understand it. It did not align with my reading of Scripture. So it was time to go back to the Bible and study some more. Then the Lord explained it to me. President Obama was the last President elected by Constitutional means. It could be said of President Trump that he bought the office or Russian medaling assisted him (but his election was not like all of his predecessors). Some people gratify themselves to accuse me of back peddling or whatever. BUT BY THEIR FULFILLMENT DANIEL AND REVELATION ARE EXPLAINING THEMSELVES. So I follow them as far as the LORD allows and I pray to grow in grace as they explain themselves, which means that They prove me right or I have to adjust as they educate me.

But now I know that Mr. Michael Pence is the power that was behind America's  recognition of Jerusalem and he will come to power by the aide of A FEW PROPLE. I assume based on that limited knowledge that Trump will be impeached and Michael Pence will be installed as President. And I further understand that when MICHAEL PENCE stands for his people that MICHAEL (Christ will stand for His people!)

The numbers show that we are in the final sealing time and we won't have long to banter this around. THE LAST EVENTS WILL BE RAPID ONES. Those in Laodicea that are heeding Christ's admonition are the WISE VIRGINS. Those in Laodicea that feel that they are in need of nothing (they have the Bible, Sabbath, Spirit of prophecy [but no oil] will be spewed out of Christ's mouth, i.e., He will not confess them before His Father in the Investigative Judgment).

This is a warning message to get right with God while the Investigative Judgment is still in process. Those who will hear will act upon the warning and those whe having ears to hear and hear not will do their own thing as long as God allows.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Jesus never once considered Laodiceans as "a waste of time..."  as we can see by Rev 3 in the last few verses. Jesus apparently held out hope to Laodiceans for as long as they were still breathing. "He who has an ear let him hear what The Spirit says to the CHURCHES..."  (REV 3:21-22).

I believe the 7 Churches of Revelation describe the Church as a whole - in several levels:  time periods, actual literal churches in Asia Minor, types of persons (character wise) within the Church as a whole.  Within the Church as a whole are folks of a certain character.  They love the brethren, and they are willing to die for their faith.  These two character traits give the strongest witness for the truth of Christ Jesus as the END approaches. 

Lukewarmness, and dabbling in paganism, don't give much of a witness for the truth of Christ Jesus, and a strong warning that judgment is approaching.

This does not mean that Jesus will stop trying to win those with other - much less desirable - character traits.

[8thdaypriest]

6 minutes ago, hch said:

President Obama was the last President elected by Constitutional means. It could be said of President Trump that he bought the office or Russian medaling assisted him (but his election was not like all of his predecessors). Some people gratify themselves to accuse me of back peddling or whatever. BUT BY THEIR FULFILLMENT DANIEL AND REVELATION ARE EXPLAINING THEMSELVES. So I follow them as far as the LORD allows and I pray to grow in grace as they explain themselves, which means that They prove me right or I have to adjust as they educate me.

But now I know that Mr. Michael Pence is the power that was behind America's  recognition of Jerusalem and he will come to power by the aide of A FEW PROPLE. I assume based on that limited knowledge that Trump will be impeached and Michael Pence will be installed as President. And I further understand that when MICHAEL PENCE stands for his people that MICHAEL (Christ will stand for His people!)

I cannot continue to dialog with you hch.  It's so far "out there", I cannot even reason with it. 

[Gregory Matthews]

A reminder:  This forum welcomes people to post here who may not agree with standard Seventh-day Adventist belief.  On that basis, visitors reading posts here should not assume that a post is SDA teaching.  It may be and it may not be.

Rachel, is an example (8thd Day Priest):  Some of what she posts is in accord with Standard SDA beliefs and some of it is not.  We welcome her here and her posts.

HCH is another example that is different.  He likes to focus on posting predictions related to political and spiritual leaders in the world.  The majority, if not all, ,of his predictions have been demonstrated to be false as his predicted events did not happen at the time he stated that they would happen.  On this basis, he is generally not considered to be a reliable witness to Biblical teachings.   As has been stated, at least in essence, it isn't possible to have much of a cogent discussion with him.

 I think that it would be well to have a "time-out."  This will be a time when this thread is closed for discussion, while it can still be read.  It will give people time

At this time, I do not plan to close it forever.  I just am going to give you time to think and reflect.  After sometime for reflection, I will open it again.

 

But, maybe we should close it forever?   ?   ?   ?

This topic has   extended to 14 pages with more than 300 comments posted.  It has been viewed, which it can still be viewed, almost 2,700 times.  If no one (few contact) contacts me to ask that it remain open, may be I will keep it closed?  

 

 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, I stated that I would open it again, so I will keep my word.

This forum has gone on for 14 pages and more than 300 posts.  During its closure, not one of our members has asked me to open it again.

My perspective is that our members either want it closed, or do not care if it is closed.

So, I am thinking that it might be well to close it.

However, for now, I will open it as I said that I would do so.

 

[Gustave]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 4:40 AM, hch said:

Gustave,

you made an astute observation here.

Any ideas why the Investigative Judgment is "moving from a prominent position to literally a forgotten one"?

Do you suppose that this could be the result of Seventh-day Adventists wanting to be a more mainstream Christian religion?  
Do Other Christian religions give much thought to the Investigative Judgment?

I'm thinking that there is very little to no "real" support for the teaching in Scripture - as no individual educated in the ancient languages came up with this idea and that it appears to be a fabricated mechanism to justify the failed predicted return of Christ at a specific time. 

[hch]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

I'm thinking that there is very little to no "real" support for the teaching in Scripture - as no individual educated in the ancient languages came up with this idea and that it appears to be a fabricated mechanism to justify the failed predicted return of Christ at a specific time. 

Gustave,

If there were no Scriptural support for the Investigative Judgment … that would explain why it is not taught other churches.

But if the Old Testament Sanctuary services is the evidence (Scriptural support), then why is that not sufficient?

And remember the Judgment is mentioned in Daniel (he states that Heaven's  books were opened … in his book that was closed/sealed until a later date with the promise that knowledge will be increased when his book is opened in the endtime).

 

[Gustave]

14 hours ago, hch said:

Gustave,

If there were no Scriptural support for the Investigative Judgment … that would explain why it is not taught other churches.

But if the Old Testament Sanctuary services is the evidence (Scriptural support), then why is that not sufficient?

And remember the Judgment is mentioned in Daniel (he states that Heaven's  books were opened … in his book that was closed/sealed until a later date with the promise that knowledge will be increased when his book is opened in the endtime).

 

How are the Old Testament Sanctuary services used as support for claiming Jesus didn't "sit down" at the right hand of the Father after the Resurrection? 

"Who being the brightness of His Glory, and the express image of His Person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, SAT DOWN on the right hand of the Majesty high;" Hebrews 1,3

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, SAT DOWN on the right hand of God". Hebrews 10, 12

If Jesus was crucified, died and 3 days later  Resurrected and ascended into Heaven & SAT DOWN on the right hand of God what should we make of a teaching that says Jesus got up something like 1800 years later and began sprinkling His blood inside the temple of heaven? Wouldn't that be considered "WORK"? 

"Jesus sayeth unto them, my meat is to do the will of Him that sent me and to FINISH His work". John 4,34

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT is finished". John 19,30

What is the "IT" in the above Scripture that was said to be finished? 

 

[Gustave]

42 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

"The  Lord STANDS UP to judge His plead, and STANDS to judge the people." (see Isaiah 3:13).

Also in Daniel 12:1...AT THAT TIME JESUS WILL STAND UP..."

Isaiah 3, 13 implies nothing about "the end of days" - the context is God acts and doesn't just adopt a passive attitude in either trying to help His people OR when that doesn't work - to judge them. 

 

Daniel 12, 1 has Michael the archangel "standing up"( entering the action ) at the end of "the end of days". Do you consider 1844 to be within the end of the end of days? 

Daniel 12,13: But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.